jspence1
Well-Known Member
I transfered my wine into the secondary last night and am concerned that I have too much head space. If so what would I do at this point?
Thanks for the help.
John
Thanks for the help.
John
head space?
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devaspawn
Well-Known Member
You should be fine. Should be some CO2 protecting the headspace.
OP
OP
jspence1
Well-Known Member
Thanks I feel better now. I just checked on it and it still seems to have some airlock activity. I tasted it last night when I transfered it and it was bad. I guess thats why I still have a few more things to add to it before its done.
John
John
I disagree that it's ok. You have way, way, too much headspace. If it's a kit, make sure you top up according to the instructions. If you are following a recipe that is done, you can either top up with water, or a similar wine. If you're following a 5 gallon recipe, it should be topped up to 5 gallons. If it's a 3 gallon recipe, it should go into a 3 gallon carboy.
If you're making a kit, and going to degas in the next few days then it will be ok until then. If not, and you're planning on leaving it in that carboy for more than a couple of days, you should do something right away.
What are you making, and what size batch is it?
If you're making a kit, and going to degas in the next few days then it will be ok until then. If not, and you're planning on leaving it in that carboy for more than a couple of days, you should do something right away.
What are you making, and what size batch is it?
devaspawn
Well-Known Member
I am confused Yooper. I admit that I don't know a lot about wine making but he said he transferred to secondary. I assumed that the major fermentation at that point was completed. Again, I don't know much about wine, but in beer I have read people saying don't add water to your fermented beer. Only add before fermenting.
If I gave bad advice Jspence I apologize.
If I gave bad advice Jspence I apologize.
No, it's not bad advice! I didn't mean to sound critical.
Just that with wine, you put it in secondary usually around 1.010- 1.020 when fermentation slows down. Sometimes you miss that stage, though, and it's lower, and fermentation is either finished or very slow. Depending on the recipe (kits ARE a bit different), that wine might now stay in secondary for 3 months or so, until the lees are thick and it needs to be racked. Headspace is now a huge concern- and then, when you go to rack, you have even more issues with oxygen and aeration. Many wine recipes have the top up amounts "built in" to the recipe, so that you top up with water after the primary. Some do not, and you top up with a similar wine as to not dilute the wine.
I always make a little extra must, for the "top up" wine, and keep that in a wine wine bottle with an airlock next to the carboy. You can plan on losing wine with each racking, because you rack off the lees whenever you have them at regular intervals. For instance, I will rack every 45 days as long as I have lees dropping. Eventually, that will slow, and you can bulk age.
Now, for kits, they tell you not to top up until after you degas. That's because the degassing causes huge amounts of foam (think volcano) and you need the headspace for it. But right after you degas, you top up and the recipe does have that top up water "built in" to it.
Maybe that's why it doesn't taste very good yet? That it's not finished and topped up? Just a thought.
Just that with wine, you put it in secondary usually around 1.010- 1.020 when fermentation slows down. Sometimes you miss that stage, though, and it's lower, and fermentation is either finished or very slow. Depending on the recipe (kits ARE a bit different), that wine might now stay in secondary for 3 months or so, until the lees are thick and it needs to be racked. Headspace is now a huge concern- and then, when you go to rack, you have even more issues with oxygen and aeration. Many wine recipes have the top up amounts "built in" to the recipe, so that you top up with water after the primary. Some do not, and you top up with a similar wine as to not dilute the wine.
I always make a little extra must, for the "top up" wine, and keep that in a wine wine bottle with an airlock next to the carboy. You can plan on losing wine with each racking, because you rack off the lees whenever you have them at regular intervals. For instance, I will rack every 45 days as long as I have lees dropping. Eventually, that will slow, and you can bulk age.
Now, for kits, they tell you not to top up until after you degas. That's because the degassing causes huge amounts of foam (think volcano) and you need the headspace for it. But right after you degas, you top up and the recipe does have that top up water "built in" to it.
Maybe that's why it doesn't taste very good yet? That it's not finished and topped up? Just a thought.
devaspawn
Well-Known Member
Then I was out of my depths and I am glad you chimed in. 
Until I read more on wine making I will have to be a little more discerning with what I say in regards to it.
Thanks for clarifying.
Until I read more on wine making I will have to be a little more discerning with what I say in regards to it.
Thanks for clarifying.
If you don't want to add water to top off, try one of these plans:
(1) Add similar commercioal wine to bring the level up.
(2) Rack to a smaller carboy, and put the extra in another approprate sized air-lockable container.
(3) Add sanitized glass marbles to bring the level up.
From the looks of the level in your carboy, there is too much space for adding commercial wine or marbles.
I would rack to a 3 gal carboy and put the rest in another air-locked container.
This is why it is very important to have an assorment of various sized air-lockable glass.
(1) Add similar commercioal wine to bring the level up.
(2) Rack to a smaller carboy, and put the extra in another approprate sized air-lockable container.
(3) Add sanitized glass marbles to bring the level up.
From the looks of the level in your carboy, there is too much space for adding commercial wine or marbles.
I would rack to a 3 gal carboy and put the rest in another air-locked container.
This is why it is very important to have an assorment of various sized air-lockable glass.
OP
OP
jspence1
Well-Known Member
Ok here where I'm at with this. it is a 23L (6G) wine kit. I've done the primary fermentation the instructions said the sg would be 1.010 i measured 1.000. It appears to be less than 23L (23L carboy) now I did lose about 1L moving from the primary bucket. The instructions say not to top off with water that being said it looks a lot darker than I was expecting can I top it up with water?. I still have a 1L flavor pack to add in 10 days.
I have a 19L carboy empty that I could use for the wine if that would be better. I'm a complete noob here so any advice would be great.
Its almost funny that I searched like mad for a 6G carboy and now its too big lmao.
John
I have a 19L carboy empty that I could use for the wine if that would be better. I'm a complete noob here so any advice would be great.
Its almost funny that I searched like mad for a 6G carboy and now its too big lmao.
John
Oh, you're fine if you follow the kit directions. I assume you'll degass next? Then add the rest of the ingredients and top up with water. I would just follow the kit directions in this case. They have some sulfite in the kit that you added at the beginning, so it will help. Kits have instructions specific to their kit, so it's always good to follow the instructions exactly until the bottling/aging stage.
OP
OP
jspence1
Well-Known Member
It doesn't say in the instructions to top up at anytime. Without the top up should I transfer it to the 5G carboy or just go ahead and top it up. I'm supposed to de-gas it in another 7 days.
John
John
After you degas, you add the additional pack? any other ingredients?
What kind of kit is this? Maybe I'm familiar with it.
Could you tell me after you degas what the steps are (briefly is fine)? Unless you're bottling immediately after adding the additional pack, you should top up then.
OP
OP
jspence1
Well-Known Member
The wine is a Niagara Mist 4 week kit. I was told these kits were easy just dump and go lol just like beer is just dump and go too. I should have done some research first.
DAY 7
Target <1.010
Siphon wine into sterilized carboy leaving sediment behind. We strongly recommend not topping up to ensure a properly balanced wine and
to leave room tor the addition of the Fruit Flavor Pack in Stage #4.
Attach bung with fermentation lock.
Leave carboy in a warm area for 7 days to complete the fermentation.
Day 14
Target <1 .000
Siphon wine into a sterilized GLASS carboy. Do not top up as you need to allow room for the addition of the Fruit Flavor Pack in Stage #4.
Sprinkle the contents of Packet No.3 (Potassium Metabisulphite) into the wine and mix thoroughly.
Stir the wine several times (at least 6 to 8) over the next 2 days. (remember to replace the fermentation lock after stirring)
Day 17
Target <1.000
To 125 ml (1/2 cup) of warm water add the contents of Packet No.4 (Potassium Sorbate). Stir to dissolve. Add to wine and mix thoroughly.
Siphon 1 litre of wine into a sterilized container to allow adequate room tor the addition of the Fruit Flavor Pack into the glass carboy.
Add contents of the smaller bag marked as the Fruit Flavor Pack to the wine & mix thoroughly. Rinse bag with small amount of wine removed in previous step & add to carboy.
Add the contents of Package No. 5 (Fining Agent) into the wine and top up the glass carboy to 23 litres with the wine siphoned earlier. Mix
thoroughly.
Position the carboy on a table so that no further movement is required prior to bottling.
Re-fit fermentation lock and leave the wine undisturbed to clear for up to 10 days.
Day 28
Target 1.010 - 1.020
Siphon wine into a clean sterilized carboy, leaving any remaining sediment behind.
Filter the product using a medium or sterile pore size filter that has been properly prepared. Follow your filter instructions.
Siphon the clear wine to sterilized 750 ml. cork finish wine bottles allowing 2.5cm3.5cm (1" -1 1/2") head space between cork and wine.
Insert sterilized wine corks using a hand corker.
Wait 24-48 hours before inverting the bottles once corked. This will allow expansion time for the corks, and will decrease the chances of
leaking bottles.
Wow that took a long time for me to type out I guess I should have learned to type.
Thanks for your help
John
DAY 7
Target <1.010
Siphon wine into sterilized carboy leaving sediment behind. We strongly recommend not topping up to ensure a properly balanced wine and
to leave room tor the addition of the Fruit Flavor Pack in Stage #4.
Attach bung with fermentation lock.
Leave carboy in a warm area for 7 days to complete the fermentation.
Day 14
Target <1 .000
Siphon wine into a sterilized GLASS carboy. Do not top up as you need to allow room for the addition of the Fruit Flavor Pack in Stage #4.
Sprinkle the contents of Packet No.3 (Potassium Metabisulphite) into the wine and mix thoroughly.
Stir the wine several times (at least 6 to 8) over the next 2 days. (remember to replace the fermentation lock after stirring)
Day 17
Target <1.000
To 125 ml (1/2 cup) of warm water add the contents of Packet No.4 (Potassium Sorbate). Stir to dissolve. Add to wine and mix thoroughly.
Siphon 1 litre of wine into a sterilized container to allow adequate room tor the addition of the Fruit Flavor Pack into the glass carboy.
Add contents of the smaller bag marked as the Fruit Flavor Pack to the wine & mix thoroughly. Rinse bag with small amount of wine removed in previous step & add to carboy.
Add the contents of Package No. 5 (Fining Agent) into the wine and top up the glass carboy to 23 litres with the wine siphoned earlier. Mix
thoroughly.
Position the carboy on a table so that no further movement is required prior to bottling.
Re-fit fermentation lock and leave the wine undisturbed to clear for up to 10 days.
Day 28
Target 1.010 - 1.020
Siphon wine into a clean sterilized carboy, leaving any remaining sediment behind.
Filter the product using a medium or sterile pore size filter that has been properly prepared. Follow your filter instructions.
Siphon the clear wine to sterilized 750 ml. cork finish wine bottles allowing 2.5cm3.5cm (1" -1 1/2") head space between cork and wine.
Insert sterilized wine corks using a hand corker.
Wait 24-48 hours before inverting the bottles once corked. This will allow expansion time for the corks, and will decrease the chances of
leaking bottles.
Wow that took a long time for me to type out
I guess I should have learned to type.Thanks for your help
John
Well, since the instructions tell you at least twice to not top up, I guess they expect you to have some headspace. Since you are adding sulfites, it'll probably be fine. The other issue is the timing- since it's literally a 30 day kit, it definitely doesn't have much time to oxidize.
I don't know the size of the packs you're adding- but you should end up with 6 gallons if it's a 6 gallon kit. Maybe you lost a bit in the racking, but maybe the kit assumes this, too.
The "flavor pack" will make a HUGE difference in the taste of the wine- trust me on this! My best friend made a mango citrus something and it tasted terrible before she added the f-pack (that's what her wine kit called it) and finished it. It turned out great- in a wine cooler kind of way. She loved it so much she started another kit right away, and bought another kind of the same type. So, don't judge it quite yet- wait until it's done.
Are you planning on filtering this, like the instructions tell you to? I would bet you don't really have to filter, if you allow the sediment to settle out. It does tell you to top up to 23L on day 17, with wine you've previously removed. I would consider topping up with water at that point, if you're still low.
I don't know the size of the packs you're adding- but you should end up with 6 gallons if it's a 6 gallon kit. Maybe you lost a bit in the racking, but maybe the kit assumes this, too.
The "flavor pack" will make a HUGE difference in the taste of the wine- trust me on this! My best friend made a mango citrus something and it tasted terrible before she added the f-pack (that's what her wine kit called it) and finished it. It turned out great- in a wine cooler kind of way. She loved it so much she started another kit right away, and bought another kind of the same type. So, don't judge it quite yet- wait until it's done.
Are you planning on filtering this, like the instructions tell you to? I would bet you don't really have to filter, if you allow the sediment to settle out. It does tell you to top up to 23L on day 17, with wine you've previously removed. I would consider topping up with water at that point, if you're still low.
DutchK9
Well-Known Member
I am a little confused, so Yooperbrew could you please clarify. I have 3 selection kits going. Two have been racked to a secondary at 1.010 into 5 gallon glass carboys. The other is still in a 6 1/2 gallon carboy primary which was what the first two were in also.
The level of one of the racked two, is at the bottom of the neck, but the other is about 1/2 gallon less. (I must have screwed up on adding the water on one of them).
Anyway, there are still fermenting with occasional bubbling. I haven't messed with testing the gravity since the first racking, and I added some oak cubes that I was planning on letting them sit on for two months before I racked it again. I haven't put any chemicals in them except for the original amount of Bentonite at the beginning.
After the two months, I was planning on racking them again and adding the chemicals to stop fermentation assuming they were at 1.000 or less. At that time, I was planning on adding some of those decorative glass gems to fill the headspace until the must was clarified (more racking if needed). Once clarity was good, I was planning on de-gassing, adding the last chemicals, and bottling. Are you saying I should be adding the gems now to fill the headspace instead of waiting?
Thanks in advance.
The level of one of the racked two, is at the bottom of the neck, but the other is about 1/2 gallon less. (I must have screwed up on adding the water on one of them).
Anyway, there are still fermenting with occasional bubbling. I haven't messed with testing the gravity since the first racking, and I added some oak cubes that I was planning on letting them sit on for two months before I racked it again. I haven't put any chemicals in them except for the original amount of Bentonite at the beginning.
After the two months, I was planning on racking them again and adding the chemicals to stop fermentation assuming they were at 1.000 or less. At that time, I was planning on adding some of those decorative glass gems to fill the headspace until the must was clarified (more racking if needed). Once clarity was good, I was planning on de-gassing, adding the last chemicals, and bottling. Are you saying I should be adding the gems now to fill the headspace instead of waiting?
Thanks in advance.
DutchK9
Well-Known Member
Well I found some reading that said to top it up now, so I did on both. The Merlot has been sitting for 3 weeks short and the Barolo has been sitting 2 weeks short so I hope they will be okay.
I have been trying to follow some steps taken off of Jack Kellers website and it didn't mention topping off. I am surprised it wasn't mentioned.
I have been trying to follow some steps taken off of Jack Kellers website and it didn't mention topping off. I am surprised it wasn't mentioned.
Top it off with a similar wine all the way up into the bottle neck to avoid oxidation. However the sulfites in the store wine can slow the fermentation. My first question is how did you end up with so much head space? A good rule of thumb I use is if I use 6 gallons of juice, when i rack to secondary I rack into a 5 gallon almost all the way to the top and rack the leftover into a smaller bottle with a bung and lock. Then next time I rack for clearing I use the same wine from the same juice, If i need more then what I have I buy a commercial wine that is similar and top off with that, Good luck, Ken
Usually you need to degas kits, before clarifying and bulk aging. They have you leave the headspace, degas, and then top up. Clarifiers don't work very well until the wine is degassed, so they have you degas and then add them. Kits are designed to work with their ingredients, so I recommend following their instructions, except for bottling so soon. By the way, here's Jack Keller's kit instructions: http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/extended.asp
Jack Keller mentions topping up in ALL of his recipes, and his instructions. http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/starting.asp (about 1/2 way down the page)
Kits are a bit different than homemade wines, in that they are meant to be made much more quickly than "regular" wines. I have a grape wine (14 gallons of it!) that is in a carboy now, and more grapes coming. I hate rushing it to bottle, but I'll probably bottle it in September to make room for this year's harvest. It's been in the carboy since LAST September- but of course I've racked it a few times!
DutchK9
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the responses!
Like the first beer made, mistakes will be made. But I guess that is how we learn, from our mistakes.
I got Kellers instructions by the time I made my third batch. During the first five days, I did degass it. I believe I understand now.
The other two batches were not degassed at the beginning, nor topped up for a few weeks. I believe they will still be okay, but the next batch will obviously be better.
Thanks again.
Like the first beer made, mistakes will be made. But I guess that is how we learn, from our mistakes.
I got Kellers instructions by the time I made my third batch. During the first five days, I did degass it. I believe I understand now.
The other two batches were not degassed at the beginning, nor topped up for a few weeks. I believe they will still be okay, but the next batch will obviously be better.
Thanks again.
OP
OP
jspence1
Well-Known Member
After carefully measuring the volume of my carboys just to be safe I discovered that my bucket is about 2.5L(5/8G) short when filled to the 23L(6G) mark. I topped up my carboy with water to the 22L mark to allow for the flavor pack addition if a few days. Thanks everyone for all your help.
Spence, I'm new to this sight and only red the first few responses, didnt realize there was a second page or that you were doing a grape/fruit kit. I use fresh juice and let the wild yeast do it's thing for a year with several rackings. Never made a kit wine and dont know anything about them. The wine I will be bottling next month was from juice brought in from California last September. I will then start four new batches for next years wine while I'm drinking these batches, Ken
