Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

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meadowstream said:
I think I disagree about dark candi syrup providing nearly all this beer style's flavor and color. I have bought some CSI product to test this in November, but already I brew what I think are outstanding Belgian dubbels without using any syrup at all. These taste, IMO, just like Chimay or Westmalle but maybe fresher. I use chocolate malt and aromatic and some crystal malt.

Now maybe the Westvleteren is different - I have never had it, so I don't know.

Anyway, I fully acknowledge that I could be wrong and certainly someone jumped on me higher up in this forum for suggesting that syrup was not critical. (this criticism is what is prompting me to experiment with CSI products.)

According to Stan Hironymous (sp.?) in BLAM;
you cannot brew a true Belgian style beer without sugar because part of the charicteristics of those styles ( strong ales) is the relatively low body for the high alcohol. This cannot be achieved with malt alone, regardless of mash temps.

Not to say you can't brew some really good beers w/o it, just not true Belgian style strong's.
 
I'm going to go with the New World recipe but with a single infusion mash. I just listened to the Sean Paxton Rochefort tour podcast and it inspired me. While not a Rochefort, the Westy 12 is in the same ballpark. I can't wait.
 
Looking for advice on saving/washing or repurposing the Abby strain of yeast for a Rochefort 10 clone after the Westy.

I'm not too sure that I want to save the Abby yeast post-ferment unless someone talks me into it. I've heard/read that such a high gravity stresses the the yeast to the point where it shouldn't be reused.

So .. I was thinking about building a starter and decanting some of it for the next batch vs. washing the yeast cake post Westy fermentation.

Any suggestions?
 
ultravista said:
I'm not too sure that I want to save the Abby yeast post-ferment unless someone talks me into it. I've heard/read that such a high gravity stresses the the yeast to the point where it shouldn't be reused.
So they say. However, do you think that breweries that brew high gravity beers are buying fresh yeast every time? I think not my friend..
 
I would collect the yeast at high kraussen. The yeast will be much more viable, and not as stressed as the yeast that you can collect when the fermentation is over.

Alternatively you can create a truly big starer and pitch only half of that to the westy. You can save the rest for further use without risk of infection or stressed yeast.
 
Looking for advice on saving/washing or repurposing the Abby strain of yeast for a Rochefort 10 clone after the Westy.

I'm not too sure that I want to save the Abby yeast post-ferment unless someone talks me into it. I've heard/read that such a high gravity stresses the the yeast to the point where it shouldn't be reused.

So .. I was thinking about building a starter and decanting some of it for the next batch vs. washing the yeast cake post Westy fermentation.

Any suggestions?

Washing yeast can be done but it can be a hit/miss for infection. Sterile harvesting at high krausen is a great way of collecting high quality yeast for reuse. Chris White and Jamil's volume on "Yeast" is our go to guide. It's also a fantastic read.


BTW, does anybody know how Jamil's new Micro Brewery is going?
 
I ferment in a 6.5 gallon carboy, unless there's something special, I do not know how to capture yeast krausen.

I normally do 1.8L starters. I can decant some off, maybe the .8 liter and save it. It will be used to build another starter for the next batch. That should be enough dontcha think?
 
You really can't too crop in a carboy. Just one more +1 for buckets. I guess you could try to spill some out, or maybe dip a 1" diameter plastic tube in that's open on both sides and cup one end off like a wine thief.
 
FYI the Rochefort yeast is very different than the Westmalle yeast. The Rochefort yeast is almost neutral flavor-wise in comparison, which is why a true Rochefort recipe has some spices and a more complex grainbill as it does not have a very expressive yeast like the Westmalle.
 
It's not too difficult to collect yeast from a carboy. You just need a good fermentation and the right sort of spoon. With a beer this big you will probably have to install a blowoff tube. The yeast will come up to the "neck" of the carboy, and spooning it shouldn't be impossible.

More over in "Brew Like a Monk" it is stated that westmalle doesn't reuse the yeast from the trippel. They reuse from blond a few times, a few times from the dubbel and uses the yeast collected from the dubbel to ferment the trippel. On the otherhand real breweries generate so much excess yeast that they can easily afford to do this.
 
saq said:
FYI the Rochefort yeast is very different than the Westmalle yeast. The Rochefort yeast is almost neutral flavor-wise in comparison, which is why a true Rochefort recipe has some spices and a more complex grainbill as it does not have a very expressive yeast like the Westmalle.

While its true that Rochefort uses a touch of corriander even the monk in charge of brewing admits its so little he doubts anybody would notice if they left it out. And the grain bill is simple. Two malts. Two sugars. That's it.
 
Brewskii said:
According to Stan Hironymous (sp.?) in BLAM;
you cannot brew a true Belgian style beer without sugar because part of the charicteristics of those styles ( strong ales) is the relatively low body for the high alcohol. This cannot be achieved with malt alone, regardless of mash temps.

Not to say you can't brew some really good beers w/o it, just not true Belgian style strong's.

Thanks for your note. I do use sugar. I haven't used candi sugar or syrup... But, I bought some D90 and D180 to try!
 
ultravista said:
I ferment in a 6.5 gallon carboy, unless there's something special, I do not know how to capture yeast krausen.

I think Mike McDole talked about using a blowoff to harvest yeast at high krausen. I don't have a link at the moment but basically imagine pushing a blowoff further in the carboy til it comes in contact with the krausen. Allegedly with a good seal the yeast gets pumped up the blowoff by fermentation pressure to be collected at the other end.
 
I think Mike McDole talked about using a blowoff to harvest yeast at high krausen. I don't have a link at the moment but basically imagine pushing a blowoff further in the carboy til it comes in contact with the krausen. Allegedly with a good seal the yeast gets pumped up the blowoff by fermentation pressure to be collected at the other end.

Indeed, that does work.
 
Then a sealed and sanitized blow-off container is needed? I usually dump the tube into a gallon jub with a little water.
 
Then a sealed and sanitized blow-off container is needed? I usually dump the tube into a gallon jub with a little water.

Personally I'd route it to a sanitized or sterilized erlenmeyer flask (or a gallon jug) with a two holed stopper in it. The second hole would have an airlock.
 
I'm thinking a carboy cap, co2, and a racking cane with a hose going into a sanitized jar. Move the racking cane around and suck out the krausen.
 
I think Mike McDole talked about using a blowoff to harvest yeast at high krausen. I don't have a link at the moment but basically imagine pushing a blowoff further in the carboy til it comes in contact with the krausen. Allegedly with a good seal the yeast gets pumped up the blowoff by fermentation pressure to be collected at the other end.

This is how we prefer to collect also. Erlenmeyer flask with sterile water and a pyrex bubble tube.
 
One of our newest recipes that we just sampled today (cellared 4 months). This is a Belgian Pale that we're trialing with D-45. We're trying to reduce the pillowly/lacey Belgian head but nothing seems to be working :)

Belgian Pale.jpg
 
CSI said:
One of our newest recipes we just sampled. This is Belgian Pale that we're trialing with D-45.

Looks good, but the head retention is really weak. Maybe you mashed too long ;)

Dang I caught you before the edit :mug:
 
CSI said:
One of our newest recipes that we just sampled today (cellared 4 months). This is a Belgian Pale that we're trialing with D-45. We're trying to reduce the pillowly/lacey Belgian head but nothing seems to be working :)

Wow, and where at in Charlotte are you? I might need to visit.
 
What has everyone done for bottle priming? I brewed the new world recipe several months ago and am getting ready to bottle. Should I pitch a new pack of the yeast, do a starter and pitch at high K, pitch champagne yeast, do nothing?
 
What has everyone done for bottle priming? I brewed the new world recipe several months ago and am getting ready to bottle. Should I pitch a new pack of the yeast, do a starter and pitch at high K, pitch champagne yeast, do nothing?

Some have actually bottled w/o a repitch. Tall_Yotie created a BJCP award winning Pannepot without a repitch. It has an ABV of 10% +. (However) we repitch to make sure we get a proper carb and the Monks at St. Sixtus report (in BLAM) that they do repitch also.


  • 500ml stir plate repitch of WLP530 (per 5.25 gal trial vol).
  • 29-30g / gallon Syrup. Usually Simplicity (Lately I've started using CSI Golden).
 
brianm317 said:
What has everyone done for bottle priming? I brewed the new world recipe several months ago and am getting ready to bottle. Should I pitch a new pack of the yeast, do a starter and pitch at high K, pitch champagne yeast, do nothing?

I didn't repitch. It took 6 months to carb properly. Which is fine considering you really don't want to drink much before then.
 
I don't have much to add to the thread at this point except that this is the craziest fermentation i've ever had. 12 hours into the fermentation and my jug of star-san for the blow-off needs a blow-off :drunk:
 
I brewed this on Sunday, OG was a little low (1.085) and I pitched the yeast high (85F). It settled down at 82 within the hour and the yeast took off like crazy (1.6L stir plate starter of WLP530).

It hung around 80F for a day then slowly dropped to 70 today. Just tested the SG and it was 1.028 and I put the carboy in a water bath at 77F.

The room it was in was 70F ambient so I thought it would stay warmer longer, but I'm hoping I'm on the right track still. Should I keep this at 77F until it hits 1.018 still? Should I go higher on the temp?
 
I brewed this on Sunday, OG was a little low (1.085) and I pitched the yeast high (85F). It settled down at 82 within the hour and the yeast took off like crazy (1.6L stir plate starter of WLP530).

It hung around 80F for a day then slowly dropped to 70 today. Just tested the SG and it was 1.028 and I put the carboy in a water bath at 77F.

The room it was in was 70F ambient so I thought it would stay warmer longer, but I'm hoping I'm on the right track still. Should I keep this at 77F until it hits 1.018 still? Should I go higher on the temp?

I doubt you'll have any detrimental flavors at 77F with Westmalle. Some languish the yeast with an underpitch to coax more of the plum dried fruit esters (and it works BTW but it takes much longer). Our Westy brew trials usually see an SG in the mid teens (1.016 - 1.017) after 5-6 days but we do pitch a healthy 2.0L stirplate starter.
 
wobrien said:
I brewed this on Sunday, OG was a little low (1.085) and I pitched the yeast high (85F). It settled down at 82 within the hour and the yeast took off like crazy (1.6L stir plate starter of WLP530).

It hung around 80F for a day then slowly dropped to 70 today. Just tested the SG and it was 1.028 and I put the carboy in a water bath at 77F.

The room it was in was 70F ambient so I thought it would stay warmer longer, but I'm hoping I'm on the right track still. Should I keep this at 77F until it hits 1.018 still? Should I go higher on the temp?

I hope you like rocket fuel. You did this totally ass-backwards, and will pay the price with a harsh, solventy beer. You can strip the paint off of your deck with this beer, but it won't be very pleasant to drink.

You want to pitch around 65F and allow the ferment to rise into the mid 70's, then hold it there or slightly above with external heat. Never start high and cool down. That is a recipe for a stuck ferment, which you are now about to experience.
 
g-star said:
I hope you like rocket fuel. You did this totally ass-backwards, and will pay the price with a harsh, solventy beer. You can strip the paint off of your deck with this beer, but it won't be very pleasant to drink.

You want to pitch around 65F and allow the ferment to rise into the mid 70's, then hold it there or slightly above with external heat. Never start high and cool down. That is a recipe for a stuck ferment, which you are now about to experience.

Not the nicest way to say that....
 
At 12 months we had a lot of vanilla and raisin development in the nose and palate of this Westy 8...not at all so at 6 months. Also have a great lacey tan head that retains through most of this existential experience. At 8.5% ABV there is almost no alcohol detected...until it's too late ;) . 12 months conditioning seems about right for the Westy 8. Westy 12 could probably develop for 18 months (or more). If we didn't have too many trial cases already we would probably trial larger volumes.

Cheers!

AJ

Westy 8.jpg
 
Those pics look so delicious! Westy 8 is #1 on deck right now, brewing this first or second week of December. Westy 12 soon after.
 
Those pics look so delicious! Westy 8 is #1 on deck right now, brewing this first or second week of December. Westy 12 soon after.

Gix, I noticed you're using Citra on an IPA. I'm a big fan of Citra...being in the lineage of Brewers Gold and HMF. We're queuing up Citra for bittering/flavor on a variation Trappist. What's your take on the bittering and flavor?
 
Well... Unfortunately i really have nothing to add for info. That batch I brewed had calypso for bittering and citra starting at 15 min. Not to mention the fact that I boiled a piece of PVC in the kettle for all 60 min so I had to throw all of the batch away. Well, minus two bottles just to see that it tasted good and I have to brew it again to get *real* tasting notes. Minus the PVC chemicals. Facepalm...
 
Brewed the old world this weekend with a double decoction (can you really call it an old world without doing the decoction?)

Had a few mishaps:
Homebrew store didn't have the yeast so I overnighted it from NB. Couldn't pitch in time, so it just sat for about 24 hours before we pitched. Made a 6L starter and decanted most of it off the cake before pitching.

First rest was spot on at 132, second hit 149/150, third only got up to 156. So we were a bit low on the decoctions.

We pitched at 68 (possibly lower) but fermentation never really got up to that 82* sweet spot. We pitched on Thursday morning. Right now its around 77*. I just turned my computer on in my room and am hoping it brings up the temp a bit. It was covered in blankets and such.

Oh well, I think it'll still be tasty when it's done.
 
I'm looking at the new world recipe. The IBU's match the original when calculated (Tinseth) with the sugar in at the beginning of the boil. It seems like using 0.75 oz of the 90 minute hops and not adjusting the 30 minute hops calculates about the same IBU as the recipe when adding the sugar at the end of the boil. Has anyone adjusted hops for this recipe similarly?
 

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