Received some bad yeast advice, and have the esters to prove it

I brewed a Levitation style Amber with a buddy of mine, and my LHBS had crap for dry yeast, only had Cooper’s left. I’d never used it, and the little packets were only I think 7g, as opposed to the 11-11.5g I get out of Nottingham or US-05. So I asked the guy if I should do a packet and a half or something. He told me no, that all I needed to do was to boil some water, add a half a cup of sugar, cool it, add the yeast to it and cover it…aka a starter. I know now that you should never do a starter with dry yeast, but this was about a month ago when I was newer to AG brewing. Anyway, the beer is actually pretty tasty, except for the fact that there is a prevalent bananay/estery flavor at the end. It’s only been in bottles a week, so I’m hoping this clears up

It could be from more than just underpitching- estery flavors often come from a too-warm fermentation temperature. I would think that if you've got some serious esters that the fermentation temperature was above 70 degrees.

That is bad advice. You should never make a starter with sugar, use some DME. Anyways, I agree with Yooper that those tastes sound more like fermentation temperature than underpitching problems.

Depending on how long before pitching you made the "starter" you likely didn't make what we consider a starter culture. What he told you to do is called "proofing". This is an older technique that brewers used to use to "prove" the yeast was viable before pitching. It doesn't really harm the yeast at all.

A better method with today's high quality dry yeasts is to rehydrate the yeast, then stir into a cream before pitching.

This is a particularly good resource for preparing and using dry yeast:

http://www.fermentis.com/FO/pdf/Tips-Tricks.pdf

The advice you received was not bad. I would probably want to proof a packet of Coopers yeast too. Who knows when that was made or how it has been treated.

That said, you would have been better off pitching two packets.

Like Yoop said, the likely culprit for the esters (more than the pitching rate) was your fermentation temperature. That is a larger contributor IME to ester production and levels than pitching rate (although the two go hand in hand).

The proofing is to get the yeast eating to make sure they are alive, right? Wouldn't it be a bad idea to get them used to eating simple sugars before adding them to wort?

Generally you proof about 15 minutes before pitching. They do not acclimatize to the simple sugars in that time.

Yes, it is just to make sure the yeast are alive.

Well it wasn't the temperature because in my basement, it is 63 degrees, and that is where it was fermenting. I had two other beers going there at the same time and neither of them have esters, granted that for those I used US-05.
I assumed it must've been that "starter" so if that's not it, than I wonder what it could be? Like I said, the temp is 60-63 at all times down there, I have a termometer in the room, and the fermentors have the stick on types as well.
Oh and this "starter" sat with the yeast for probably a good hour and a half before it was pitched.

I've never used Cooper's so I don't know what it should taste like. However, assuming the packet was fresh, 7g really should be fine for an amber, as dried yeast packets tend to pack in a LOT of cells. Therefore, underpitching doesn't sound right to me, either. Even though ambient temperatures might have been only 63, internal temps could have been 10-15 degrees above that. US-05 can usually ferment into the 70s without problems, in my experience (I use it a lot).

I know the temp can be higher in the fermentor, but 10-15 seems like it's the exception, and not the rule. Again, I had two other beers going in the same room as that one, and neither has that ester flavor, however they both were US-05, and this other was Cooper's. Now here's a silly question, since the beer is only a week old in the bottle, could that flavor just be from the yeast eating the sugar and giving off the estery tones? And if I wait another week or two, it will be less prevelant?

Moody_Copperpot said:

It’s only been in bottles a week, so I’m hoping this clears up

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Let us know how it turns out.

Moody_Copperpot said:

I know the temp can be higher in the fermentor, but 10-15 seems like it's the exception, and not the rule. Again, I had two other beers going in the same room as that one, and neither has that ester flavor, however they both were US-05, and this other was Cooper's. Now here's a silly question, since the beer is only a week old in the bottle, could that flavor just be from the yeast eating the sugar and giving off the estery tones? And if I wait another week or two, it will be less prevelant?

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Again, US-05 works well into the lower 70s. Cooper's may not. And don't be so sure about temperatures unless you're taking readings. As for time, yes, your beer might simply be young.

I started out using coopers brewing yeast because that was what was available to me. And I fermented them in the summer up into the 70s with no problems that I remember. I was brewing some simple extract recipes with adjuncts back then. The only reason I switched away is because the notty is available for 20 cents more and it has better attenuation. I cant dog coppers yeast, it is my fallback yeast. Although, Coopers recommends using Coopers Gold for recipes that have a lot of malts. I guess the orig coopers cant quite handle it.

I don't know what strain the cooper's is, but it might be more akin to S-04 which is indeed quite estery, although not so much banana.

Sounds to me like you just rehydrated (or proofed) the yeast. Coopers yeast is fine, people have used dry yeast for hundreds of years. If you keep the temps in the right range you shouldn't have any issues. A little time in the bottle should help the flavor.

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/homebrewing-ingredients/beer-yeast/dry-beer-yeast.html


Coopers Ale (7 grams): General purpose dry ale yeast with a very good reputation. Produces significant fruity flavors, but no phenolic characteristics. Clean, fruity finish. Ferments between 62 and 72 F.

Problem here is we don't know home much water 'some water' is. There is a generally accepted SG for starters that make it easy on the yeast. So depending on the SG and how long you let this 'starter' sit, it is hard to know how much effect/affect it had on the yeast to start with. Did you decant the liquid and just pitch the yeast?

I agree that 10-15 degrees heat from fermentation is a bit high. My last batch raised from 67F at pitching to 72F at the height of fermentation, using wyeast 1099.
I also thought that the fermentation temps would be the cause if there are overpowering esters, but I can't see this brew going much above 68F at the warmest, still withing the ideal range, probably producing a little esters, but not overpowering. I would think that this yeast is prone to esters no matter what, and the pitching rate, starter makeup, or fermentation temperatures would have made very little difference.

Moody_Copperpot said:

I know the temp can be higher in the fermentor, but 10-15 seems like it's the exception, and not the rule. Again, I had two other beers going in the same room as that one, and neither has that ester flavor, however they both were US-05, and this other was Cooper's. Now here's a silly question, since the beer is only a week old in the bottle, could that flavor just be from the yeast eating the sugar and giving off the estery tones? And if I wait another week or two, it will be less prevelant?

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Moody_Copperpot those banana esters are very welcome in a hefeweizen...I think you pitched your yeast when the wort was warmer than 63F and during the initial fermentation and the time it took to cool down the esters were produced.

High temps = ester production (banana)
Lower temps = phenol production (cloves)

I can't put my finger on what happened her at all. I pitched the yeast when the wort was right there around 62-63. The yeast "starter" was in a cup of water (that I had santized first) for about an hour and a half. I know that banana is a result of high temps, but I just didn't have those high temps where the fermentation was. I suppose maybe my digital thermometer was off, I need to get another and use the tutorial posted above to wort proof it.

You don't need to proof your dry yeast, but rehydrating it is a good idea. 1/3 of your yeast can be damaged and useless if pitched dry.
The proper amount of time for rehydrating is 30 min prior to pitch.

Bull

"my LHBS" was this JW Dover?

logdrum said:

"my LHBS" was this JW Dover?

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Yes it was! I'm in Bay Village, so they are right up the road.

Do you get your grains from them as well? I've been going out to the Brew Kettle in Strongsville, great people & great prices (on grain at least).

-d

I usually do but I'm not totally confident on the crush of their grains at all. I didn't know TBK sold grains. That's news to me! My Aunt and Uncle are both involved there, Aunt actually works there. JW is SO close is the thing, but they don't carry the yeast I like to use (US-05) so I have to go all the way out to Leener's for that, which is a good 45 minutes away. How are the hop prices? Leener's is $1.90 per oz of Amarillo, whereas JW charges $4 for the same thing!

Moody_Copperpot said:

I usually do but I'm not totally confident on the crush of their grains at all. I didn't know TBK sold grains. That's news to me! My Aunt and Uncle are both involved there, Aunt actually works there. JW is SO close is the thing, but they don't carry the yeast I like to use (US-05) so I have to go all the way out to Leener's for that, which is a good 45 minutes away. How are the hop prices? Leener's is $1.90 per oz of Amarillo, whereas JW charges $4 for the same thing!

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I was at TBK a few weeks ago. Just plan on going down and having a pint or two. Your relatives can probably assure that what you need will be waiting too. Life is tough, but if you have to drink a pint or two to justify the trip, so be it.

Hermit said:

I was at TBK a few weeks ago. Just plan on going down and having a pint or two. Your relatives can probably assure that what you need will be waiting too. Life is tough, but if you have to drink a pint or two to justify the trip, so be it.

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I like the way you think! I mean if I have to have some RedEyePA or Old 21 while I'm there, I guess that's just what I've got to do.

Actually, increased ester formation CAN be caused by low pitch rate. Low pitch rates are also know to cause high diacetyl levels and higher fusel alcohol levels. So, it shouldn't be assumed that the esters were due to high fermentation temperatures.

Moody_Copperpot said:

I usually do but I'm not totally confident on the crush of their grains at all. I didn't know TBK sold grains. That's news to me! My Aunt and Uncle are both involved there, Aunt actually works there. JW is SO close is the thing, but they don't carry the yeast I like to use (US-05) so I have to go all the way out to Leener's for that, which is a good 45 minutes away. How are the hop prices? Leener's is $1.90 per oz of Amarillo, whereas JW charges $4 for the same thing!

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I know what you mean, the first (and only) time I crushed @ JW, the malt mill died on me, the guy working there didn't have a clue on how to fix it, so I basically re-aligned the rollers and got it working. I'm in North Olmsted, so they're convenient for me as well, however, their prices are out of line. TBK is $1/lb for Rahr 2-row (over 10 lbs) and while it comes pre-crushed, I've never had anything less than 80% efficiency with their grains. Their hop prices aren't so great; I buy all of mine from either Puterbaugh Farms http://www.hopsdirect.com/ or Farmhouse Brewing Supply http://www.farmhousebrewingsupply.com/scripts/default.asp

-d

I started brewing with Coopers yeast, and have used it for extract and AG brewing extensively. I used to LOVE that yeast, I even did an IIPA with it once that was, at the time, the best homebrew I had ever tasted. I have graduated to using liquid strains and when I use dry yeast, I tend to lean toward US-05 or nottingham. I also got better at controlling my temps using a swamp cooler and I have a room which stays at 55F if needed.

Anyway, I recently wanted to try coopers again for reasons of nostalgia. I made a nice APA using homegrown chinook / cascades / hallertau, pitched 2 packs of coopers and fermented at around 62-64.

The result: Tastes like a hoppy pineaple cooler. Not for me, and will not jump at the chance to use coopers again any time soon. I guess my tastes have changed. This yeast is very fruity, so I think you have done nothing "wrong". Having experienced this fruityness first hand recently, it does get slightly cleaner tasting with age - but think 6-8 weeks for optimal flavour.

Cheers!

Wow that makes me feel MUCH better. I get straight fruit when I drink the beer we brewed. And like I said, the temp where it fermented was 63, and the other two beers I had going at the same time as this one turned out exactly as planned.