PicoBrew Zymatic

BeerGrylls said:

Could you elaborate why?

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It would exacerbate the already noted DMS issue. Even if we take Pico's word that their system can mitigate DMS during the normal process of brewing on the machine...there is nothing to keep it from forming when the wort is cooling slowly in the keg...and then warming up and cooling again.

Here's a direct quote from Palmer:

If the wort is cooled slowly, dimethyl sulfide will continue to be produced in the wort without being boiled off; causing off-flavors in the finished beer.

johnsnownw said:

It would exacerbate the already noted DMS issue. Even if we take Pico's word that their system can mitigate DMS during the normal process of brewing on the machine...there is nothing to keep it from forming when the wort is cooling slowly in the keg...and then warming up and cooling again. Here's a direct quote from Palmer: If the wort is cooled slowly, dimethyl sulfide will continue to be produced in the wort without being boiled off; causing off-flavors in the finished beer.

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Interesting.
I supposed I can cool both worts separately and then combine them or keep the first wort hot while the 2nd batch is brewing.
Any potential issues with that?

jaywhy said:

Interesting.
I supposed I can cool both worts separately and then combine them or keep the first wort hot while the 2nd batch is brewing.
Any potential issues with that?

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The combining cooled wort is fine. Keeping the first warm is not, for the same reasons (DMS).

Again assuming the claims of DMS being driven off are correct - shouldn't the majority of DMS (or all of it) be driven of during the "boil" so that there is nothing to be produced during the slow cooling. Examples of this is the number of hhomebrewers that use the "no-chill" method - hot wort into the fermenter (that can handle 100°C liquid!) and let it cool overnight to pitch the yeast the next day.

mattd2 said:

Again assuming the claims of DMS being driven off are correct - shouldn't the majority of DMS (or all of it) be driven of during the "boil" so that there is nothing to be produced during the slow cooling. Examples of this is the number of hhomebrewers that use the "no-chill" method - hot wort into the fermenter (that can handle 100°C liquid!) and let it cool overnight to pitch the yeast the next day.

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Unfortunately, that's not how it works. Even a vigorous boil in an open pot won't remove all the DMS in a 90 min boil. Also, DMS is created during cool-down...especially slow cool down. Depending on style, some amount of perceived DMS is acceptable.

Point being, you have very little control regarding creation and removal of DMS with the Pico Brew system.

johnsnownw said:

Unfortunately, that's not how it works. Even a vigorous boil in an open pot won't remove all the DMS in a 90 min boil. Also, DMS is created during cool-down...especially slow cool down. Depending on style, some amount of perceived DMS is acceptable.

Point being, you have very little control regarding creation and removal of DMS with the Pico Brew system.

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Sounds logical , and I don't have any plans on buying a wort maker, but I would not mind trying some beers that has been made by one of these. We can debate until the cows come home, but I have found that with home brewing especially, the proof is in the pudding.This thing has some real and some perceived possible issues, such as no cooling, too small of a batch, possible dms production, etc....but this could be just the 1st run that eventually evolves into an automated 5 gallon system that goes from grain crushing all the way through fermentation that gives full control / decision making to the brewer. Not that I would ever plunk down thousands for such a machine, but many that have the cash will. The whole key is to allow the brewer to make all the process / recipe decisions like ingredients, crush, water to grist ratio, mash temps, hopping schedule, yeast pitching rate, fermentation temp profile, water adjustments , etc.... all the rest of home brewing is just busy work.

bctdi said:

Sounds logical , and I don't have any plans on buying a wort maker, but I would not mind trying some beers that has been made by one of these. We can debate until the cows come home, but I have found that with home brewing especially, the proof is in the pudding. [...]

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True, but there in lies the problem. You have to throw down the money to find out, and though it would seem logical to have the people cited in your advertisement/proposal give their impressions on the finished product, there is not a single pro-brewer, yeast manufacturer, HBS owner, etc...that has.

So, unfortunately, speculation is all we can discuss.

People who want to dismiss the PicoBrew (etc.) systems because it doesn't fit their usage pattern... I get that, it's not for them.

The people who characterize PicoBrew isn't intended for novice or lazy brewers, or people who "hate brewing"... I'd have to strongly disagree. I find these views somewhat disparaging actually.

I mostly lurk not post. Been brewing since '92, all-grain since 2001, but I rarely have time to brew these days (work, house projects, Arduino, CrossFit). When I entered contests I did OK (couple years ago won AHA club of the month with my Golden Tripel recipe). And the only point of this paragraph is to say, I love my craft beer, but damn I never get to engage in the hobby anymore. And when I do, I often resort to time saving tricks like concentrated boils because brewing always takes longer than I budgeted time for. (shrug, life..)

So I'm pretty excited about this project (as I have been also for "the electric brewery" project) , even though picobrew is intended for "pro" brewers making pilot batches.

It's pretty easy to get around the 2.5 gallon batch size: late malt additions and chill with top-up water.

As much as the secondary market might get some newbies into brewing, I'm happy to see something like this as it will KEEP me brewing.

Everything I learned about brewing over the years... it's still useful for designing recipes. The rest is just labor (a labor of love perhaps, but still time and labor).

For a while, I was wondering how this was any different / better than the williamswarn. (Here: http://www.williamswarn.com/) But, that system is different, because it's only set up to do extract. Hell it doesn't even heat, but rather a no-boil. However, it does chill, carbonate (via PRV), and dispense. And it's sold a bunch by now.

maltbier said:

People who want to dismiss the PicoBrew (etc.) systems because it doesn't fit their usage pattern... I get that, it's not for them.

The people who characterize PicoBrew isn't intended for novice or lazy brewers, or people who "hate brewing"... I'd have to strongly disagree. I find these views somewhat disparaging actually.

I mostly lurk not post. Been brewing since '92, all-grain since 2001, but I rarely have time to brew these days (work, house projects, Arduino, CrossFit). When I entered contests I did OK (couple years ago won AHA club of the month with my Golden Tripel recipe). And the only point of this paragraph is to say, I love my craft beer, but damn I never get to engage in the hobby anymore. And when I do, I often resort to time saving tricks like concentrated boils because brewing always takes longer than I budgeted time for. (shrug, life..)

So I'm pretty excited about this project (as I have been also for "the electric brewery" project) , even though picobrew is intended for "pro" brewers making pilot batches.

It's pretty easy to get around the 2.5 gallon batch size: late malt additions and chill with top-up water.

As much as the secondary market might get some newbies into brewing, I'm happy to see something like this as it will KEEP me brewing.

Everything I learned about brewing over the years... it's still useful for designing recipes. The rest is just labor (a labor of love perhaps, but still time and labor).

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I would think this would not be too great for pilot batchs in a micro - I can't see it being scalable as the process is completely different.
I thought the original kickstarter pitched it for those that disliked the grunt wowrk of brewing beer?
I really don't think those people are going to buy it as if they really hate brewing then they'll just go and buy beer.
The people that are/will buy it are those like you - enjoy the hobby but do not have the time to devote 1/2 a day to brewing an AG batch. Load it up, turn it on and then come back a few hours later after you have done something else and pitch you yeast - through it through a wash cycle and your done.

BeerGrylls said:

For a while, I was wondering how this was any different / better than the williamswarn. (Here: http://www.williamswarn.com/) But, that system is different, because it's only set up to do extract. Hell it doesn't even heat, but rather a no-boil. However, it does chill, carbonate (via PRV), and dispense. And it's sold a bunch by now.

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Frankly, I don't know why anyone would choose the Pico brew system over that one. If you don't have time to brew, or you're just not interested enough to find the time, why would you want to mess with all-grain? It's not as though extract brewing is particularly inferior...and the pico system certainly seems to have far more negatives than the extract version.

*shrugs*

maltbier said:

So I'm pretty excited about this project (as I have been also for "the electric brewery" project) , even though picobrew is intended for "pro" brewers making pilot batches.

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Yeah...because the methodology is the same? I'm sorry, but there is no way in hell that the pico system is, in any meaningful way, similar to pro brewing. The recipes won't translate, the machine can't match the complexity, and it doesn't use the same techniques.

Look, if you want to use this system as a "brewing lite" applicance, fine...but it's not a mini brewery.

maltbier said:

People who want to dismiss the PicoBrew (etc.) systems because it doesn't fit their usage pattern... I get that, it's not for them. The people who characterize PicoBrew isn't intended for novice or lazy brewers, or people who "hate brewing"... I'd have to strongly disagree. I find these views somewhat disparaging actually. I mostly lurk not post. Been brewing since '92, all-grain since 2001, but I rarely have time to brew these days (work, house projects, Arduino, CrossFit). When I entered contests I did OK (couple years ago won AHA club of the month with my Golden Tripel recipe). And the only point of this paragraph is to say, I love my craft beer, but damn I never get to engage in the hobby anymore. And when I do, I often resort to time saving tricks like concentrated boils because brewing always takes longer than I budgeted time for. (shrug, life..) So I'm pretty excited about this project (as I have been also for "the electric brewery" project) , even though picobrew is intended for "pro" brewers making pilot batches. It's pretty easy to get around the 2.5 gallon batch size: late malt additions and chill with top-up water. As much as the secondary market might get some newbies into brewing, I'm happy to see something like this as it will KEEP me brewing. Everything I learned about brewing over the years... it's still useful for designing recipes. The rest is just labor (a labor of love perhaps, but still time and labor).

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Very well said.

What this does for me is reduce the time spent on brewing while still allowing me to be able to craft recipes and control all the variables with precision and repeatability.
I'd love to brew more often but I don't have the 6-8 hours to do an AG 5 gallon batch.

It doesn't allow anyone to just buy it and start crafting excellent beer without knowing anything about brewing the same way that buying an expensive dslr doesn't make you a good photographer.

johnsnownw said:

Yeah...because the methodology is the same? I'm sorry, but there is no way in hell that the pico system is, in any meaningful way, similar to pro brewing. The recipes won't translate, the machine can't match the complexity, and it doesn't use the same techniques. Look, if you want to use this system as a "brewing lite" applicance, fine...but it's not a mini brewery.

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And you know this how?

Because there were 2 breweries featured in the video who were already using it to test recipes before scaling them up to the pilot system.

jaywhy said:

And you know this how?

Because there were 2 breweries featured in the video who were already using it to test recipes before scaling them up to the pilot system.

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I know that the two systems work completely differently, because I know the standard techniques employed by breweries. And it's common sense that you would be limited to what types of brews you could make, and the types of ingredients you could employ, using this small automated system.

Only one of the brewers said they could use it in conjunction with their main pilot brew system. Another brewer simply discussed the easy clean-up, and the final one said you could test individual grains and hops...saying nothing about using it as a pilot system.

Look, I get it...I can see how people might get excited about this thing, but you're all ignoring the perceived deficiencies in the system, and you're using the words of small random brewers (who may or may not be investors in some capacity) without skepticism. The owner of RedHook is a much larger brewer...but he doesn't offer anything other than talking points unrelated to the products quality. The video you're citing was made specifically to get you to spend money...like an infomercial.

And again, I can't point this out enough, not a single person outside of the development team has commented on the quality of the finished product...NONE.

I suppose that's the one question that really matters: does it make good beer, or not?

RadicalEd said:

I suppose that's the one question that really matters: does it make good beer, or not?

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Exactly, and they know this...yet they didn't bother to get anyone to comment on the quality before they launched the Kickstarter campaign. How is this not questionable to people?

RadicalEd said:

I suppose that's the one question that really matters: does it make good beer, or not?

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It does not make beer. It makes wort. That's it. Such a huge part of brewing is in fermentation. It's a $2300 wort maker. I keep questioning why they stopped right in the middle of the beer making process.

johnsnownw said:

Exactly, and they know this...yet they didn't bother to get anyone to comment on the quality before they launched the Kickstarter campaign. How is this not questionable to people?

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How can they say wether it makes good beer or not when it does not finish the beer making process? It could make the best wort in the world, but someone can still screw it up with a bad ferment.

bctdi said:

How can they say wether it makes good beer or not when it does not finish the beer making process? It could make the best wort in the world, but someone can still screw it up with a bad ferment.

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What? :smack:

They have full control over the beer they make and ferment...they can have tastings for the people they have promoting their product. It doesn't matter if you can make bad beer, it's whether you can make good beer. All they have to, and should have done, is prove that they can make good beer on their machine, using the techniques they recommend during ferment. They have made no attempt to do this.

I mean, if the developers can't produce good beer with this machine, how can they expect consumers to do so?

As an addition:

You're the only one claiming this is just s wort maker. Pico brew claims that this machine brews beer. So, if it is only a wort maker, then that's a serious flaw with the machine (as it pertains to their claims.)

It should be also noted, that there are issues not addressed with the way it produces the wort...which have been outlined several times in this thread. The only way these concerns can be addressed is with lab testing or tasting the finished beer. Either way there is simply no evidence to support that this thing can do what they (beer) or you (wort) claim.

I mean, the image that comes to mind is that of the guy standing on the back of a wagon claiming that his magic elixer can cure ailments. That's what people are buying, when there's no evidence to support the claims...

johnsnownw said:

What? :smack:

They have full control over the beer they make and ferment...they can have tastings for the people they have promoting their product. It doesn't matter if you can make bad beer, it's whether you can make good beer. All they have to, and should have done, is prove that they can make good beer on their machine, using the techniques they recommend during ferment. They have made no attempt to do this.

I mean, if the developers can't produce good beer with this machine, how can they expect consumers to do so?

As an addition:

You're the only one claiming this is just s wort maker. Pico brew claims that this machine brews beer. So, if it is only a wort maker, then that's a serious flaw with the machine (as it pertains to their claims.)

It should be also noted, that there are issues not addressed with the way it produces the wort...which have been outlined several times in this thread. The only way these concerns can be addressed is with lab testing or tasting the finished beer. Either way there is simply no evidence to support that this thing can do what they (beer) or you (wort) claim.

I mean, the image that comes to mind is that of the guy standing on the back of a wagon claiming that his magic elixer can cure ailments. That's what people are buying, when there's no evidence to support the claims...

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I am not the one person claiming this thing makes wort only. From Pico brew's own website they claim it makes wort. that is all....link here

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1708005089/picobrew-zymatic-the-automatic-beer-brewing-applia

Yes they do use the 2 terms interchangably though and that is pretty misleading if you have never made beer, but for anyone who has made a few batches you know full well how important fermentation can be. As far as getting pro brewers to say good things about this product, even if it makes good wort, how many pro brewers are going to promote this? How many products have you seen that have been backed by "experts" but the product still sucks? It means absolutely nothing to me until I have tried it myself. Taste is very subjective, so Someone can say "good" and it may not actually be very good.
Again, I can see a market but not for me...$2300 to make wort seems crazy to me, now if they can combine this wort maker with the williams warn which does exactly the other half of brewing, then they have my attention, but only if it's a good product and at a price worth the end result. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.....it would be in the 5k -6k range probably, and then I would just go with Kal's electric brewery anyway.

I have to agree with johnsnow on this. Nobody just makes wort, so that argument is a huge cop-out. The purpose is to make beer. They should be able to parade some examples of their final product to get some honest reviews.

The proof is in the pudding. Any testimonials from a PicoBrew user?

alien said:

The proof is in the pudding. Any testimonials from a PicoBrew user?

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There are no PicoBrew users.

johnsnownw said:

There are no PicoBrew users.

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So, nothing to talk about really.

alien said:

So, nothing to talk about really.

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About the end product...unfortunately, no. Which is a bit of an issue when asking for money sight unseen.

BeerGrylls said:

I have to agree with johnsnow on this. Nobody just makes wort, so that argument is a huge cop-out. The purpose is to make beer. They should be able to parade some examples of their final product to get some honest reviews.

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Yes the purpose is to make beer, but it doesn't. It makes half of the beer. Fermentation is the other half. Reviews would be great, but at the end of the day how are you going to rely on some peoples opinion of how beer tastes? The point is that no matter what these guys say, anyone who buys this system is going to have to take a leap of faith. How can you "prove" good beer to a consumer base with a startup design? It's not truly possible. With that said, I am firmly in the "not gonna buy it" camp but due to real facts like the fact that it's a $2300 wort maker and doesn't finish the beer, and the fact that it only makes 2.5 gallons at a time, and the fact that it has no wort cooling ability. The DMS issue may or may not be a factor, after all it's not a closed system and the no chill brewing has had some success....other than that though I see no reason why it would not make great wort since it does recirculating step mashes based on whatever temps you select.The grain will not know the difference.
Some people are opposed to the idea of a machine doing the temp control work of brewing, but that's not really an issue for me. If people are going to shoot this thing down, fine....but shoot it down based on the real shortcomings of the design....not on things like "maybe the beer won't taste good" when the fact is we have no idea wether or not it can produce great wort.

bctdi said:

[Snip]

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No one is arguing that the end result isn't partially due to the fermentation, which the machine doesn't do. However, to say that there is no way to placate people with opinions from people trusted in the industry doesn't make much sense. If, say, Vinnie from Russian River says that the Pliny clone, that PicoBrew advertises in their Kickstarter campaign, tastes good...then I'd think most people would take his word for it. Or, having noted beer reviewers give their opinions on the finished product. The below article lists other clones that are apparently on-tap at the lab...any of which the original brewers could be asked to try and give their opinion:

http://www.washingtonbeerblog.com/seattles-latest-innovation-picobrew/

What I'm saying is that it's entirely possible to get valid opinions on the brews that people would be willing to consider.

You brought up some other points that I think need to be addressed as well.

1. As to it not being a closed system:

Well, it pretty much is. Seemingly there is a small vent for steam to escape, but to believe that all the vapor created from DMS boil-off can escape through a small vent doesn't seem plausible. Some of that vapor will condense on the inside top of the machine, and the vent itself. It will then fall back down into the wort. Whether this is enough to be noticeable is unknown, however.

2. No-chill brewing:

No-chill brewing does work in some styles, and it seems like the consensus is that a 90 min boil (or at the very least a boil of some sort) is necessary if you're going to do it. However, that's not exactly going to happen with the PicoBrew.

3. As to the wort creation:

I indeed agree. It would seem as though the machine should be able to extract sugars perfectly well, but that's never been a perceived issue with the PicoBrew. It's what happens after the mash that is in question.


To a lesser extent, some of the other limiting factors:

The PicoBrew campaign also doesn't account for the extra money you have to spend on equipment that doesn't come with your purchase.

Kegs
Taps & hoses
Sanitization
C02 tank

The cost of the unit is going to be considerably more than they estimate, and when you factor in that you will most likely end up with 2.3 gallons of beer at the end...I can't see how it would really appeal to many. I mean, it's only about 17 pints of beer. Anyway, most of these points are entirely subjective, but worth pointing out.

johnsnownw said:

Firstly, no one is arguing that the end result isn't partially due to the fermentation, which the machine doesn't do. However, to say that there is no way to placate people with opinions from people trusted in the industry doesn't make much sense. If, say, Vinnie from Russian River says that the Pliny clone, that PicoBrew advertises in their Kickstarter campaign, tastes good...then I'd think most people would take his word for it. Or, having noted beer reviewers give their opinions on the finished product. The below article lists other clones that are apparently on-tap at the lab...any of which the original brewers could be asked to try and give their opinion:

http://www.washingtonbeerblog.com/seattles-latest-innovation-picobrew/

What I'm saying is that it's entirely possible to get valid opinions on the brews that people would be willing to consider.

You brought up some other points that I think need to be addressed as well.

1. As to it not being a closed system:

Well, it pretty much is. Seemingly there is a small vent for steam to escape, but to believe that all the vapor created from DMS boil-off can escape through a small vent doesn't seem plausible. Some of that vapor will condense on inside top of the machine, and the vent itself. It will then fall back down into the wort. Whether this is enough to be noticeable is unknown, however.

2. No-chill brewing:

No-chill brewing does work in some styles, and it seems like the consensus is that a 90 min boil is necessary if you're going to do it. However, that's not exactly going to happen with the PicoBrew.

3. As to the wort creation:

I indeed agree. It would seem as though the machine should be able to extract sugars perfectly well, but that's never been a perceived issue with the PicoBrew. It's what happens after the mash that is in question.


To a lesser extent, some of the other limiting factors:

The PicoBrew campaign also doesn't account for the extra money you have to spend on equipment that doesn't come with your purchase.

Kegs
Taps & hoses
Sanitization
C02 tank

The cost of the unit is going to be considerably more than they estimate, and when you factor in that you will most likely end up with 2.3 gallons of beer at the end...I can't see how it would really appeal to many. I mean, it's only about 17 pints of beer. Anyway, most of these points are entirely subjective, but worth pointing out.

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As far as the end result being "partially from fermentation" I hate to take you literally on that , but if partially is what you meant, I will disagree on that. Fermentation is literally at least half of what makes a beer good ( of course that includes yeast starter, temp control, removing excessive hop matter, pitching rate, yeast selection etc , etc)

As far as getting reviews / opinions, what I am saying is that at the kickstarter stage of the game with not even having produced 1 for sale, those kinds of things are not really going to happen. Sure a few years from now you could get a large consensus, but with limited funding I can't see that as even being possible to the point where it will convince a bunch of people to buy based on reviews alone.

It can't be a closed system, otherwise it would be a pressure vessel, so exhaust has to be going somewhere, and it constantly recirculates , so we don't really know how they deal with condesation going back in to the wort. So for me it's just an unknown.But I would lean towards you're side on that if I had to make a guess.

As far as 90 minute boils, there was no comment about boil times on their website, but if it can do step mashes and infinite hop additions, and it has open source software, I can't see that it would be an issue to change the time limit on the boil. Really another unknown , but should not be an issue for this machine.

As far as replacing hoses and other maintenance, now you are talking my language.This thing has a pump, software, computer hardware, tubing, thermometers/temp sensors, timers etc.....bound to get clogged, or need some maintenance at some point. This is definately an issue when you consider paying $2300 and you have to fix it 3 years down the road.

All in all this is in fact a nice piece of engineering, however lots of issues to point out the more I read about it. Plus, after all is said and done, it's not all that much easier than a normal all grain brew day.You still have to crush grains, measure hop/water additions, move water from the tap to the system, weigh your grains out, etc...the only thing it saves you is that you get to walk away during the mash/boil process which to me gets offset by the fact that this system will need to be maintained.

bctdi said:

As far as the end result being "partially from fermentation" I hate to take you literally on that , but if partially is what you meant, I will disagree on that. Fermentation is literally at least half of what makes a beer good ( of course that includes yeast starter, temp control, removing excessive hop matter, pitching rate, yeast selection etc , etc)

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Yeah, I did not mean it literally. I was simply stating that you were correct that the machine doesn't have an impact on that stage of brewing. Wasn't a comment directed at the importance of the fermentation. Which is a great deal...and why I have a fermentation chamber.

bctdi said:

As far as getting reviews / opinions, what I am saying is that at the kickstarter stage of the game with not even having produced 1 for sale, those kinds of things are not really going to happen. Sure a few years from now you could get a large consensus, but with limited funding I can't see that as even being possible to the point where it will convince a bunch of people to buy based on reviews alone.

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Well, the system was created by Bill Mitchell, a former engineer at Microsoft. He's not exactly strapped for cash. He's just using Kickstarter to minimize his personal financial investment.

bctdi said:

As far as 90 minute boils, there was no comment about boil times on their website, but if it can do step mashes and infinite hop additions, and it has open source software, I can't see that it would be an issue to change the time limit on the boil. Really another unknown , but should not be an issue for this machine.

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There are no boil times, as the machine doesn't ever reach a boil.

As far as the Picobrew system goes, I think the jury is still out wether or not it can make good wort, but I wonder how opinions would change when people start winning homebrew competitions with this thing? Some on here say prove it, and what better way to prove it than that? I guess time will tell.

bctdi said:

As far as the Picobrew system goes, I think the jury is still out wether or not it can make good wort, but I wonder how opinions would change when people start winning homebrew competitions with this thing? Some on here say prove it, and what better way to prove it than that? I guess time will tell.

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I don't doubt that it's possible. As stated there are certain styles that will not be affected by the possible shortfalls in the process. Also, a blind squirrel finds an acorn occasionally.

Either way the system isn't as versatile as other homebrewing systems. As long as people realize that this isn't a replacement for a traditional set-up, and that it's vastly more expensive...then I say they are welcome to burn cash at their leisure.

As an aside, it should be noted that I am not advocating traditional methods as superior, or more crafty. It's simply that I feel the public is being misled on the machines capabilities, both in quality and variety, of beer production.

bctdi said:

As far as the Picobrew system goes, I think the jury is still out wether or not it can make good wort, but I wonder how opinions would change when people start winning homebrew competitions with this thing? Some on here say prove it, and what better way to prove it than that? I guess time will tell.

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According to Picobrew, one of their brewers has already won a bunch of awards with their beers.
Check their FB page.

jaywhy said:

According to Picobrew, one of their brewers has already won a bunch of awards with their beers.
Check their FB page.

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That is interesting. Though backs the theory that it is limited in what it can produce.

She entered 6 styles, 3 of which ranked dead last, and one 2nd to last. Two did get 1st and 2nd...so that does sound promising...for certain styles.

It's also interesting that the Party Porter she won at the XBrew comp., ranked last at the Novemberfest comp. I don't know if that speaks to the quality of the entrants at Novemberfest, or the inability of the PicoBrew to consistently make the same quality beer.

Now the question is, what equipment and methods are they using to ferment the wort? Because they aren't winning without fermentation temperature control equipment...I guarantee it.

I'm not on FB, but what is it , 1 brewer? If so not really much of a test, plus we all know competitions do have an element of luck...not to say that you can win with bad beer, but you may not win with the best beer. It would take many competition wins brewing lighter styles like Pilnser, Kolsh, or Blonde styles to really prove anything, and that should play out for us one way or the other in the next year or so.I read somewhere that the target market (for now) is pro brewers for doing test batches before scaling up a new recipe, so in time we should see what kind of endorsements this thing gets.Again though, there is really not enough data out there to say one way or the other how well this makes wort, only the facts that are presented by the Picobrew folks up to this point ( by facts I'm talking about known things like system capacity, the fact it doesn't chill, the fact it doesn't boil, the fact it only makes wort , etc), and not that I am buying everything they say, but those things mentioned above I believe them on because they are negative attributes. I did read somewhere that Chris White from White Labs endorses it, but he makes yeast, so not really winning me over. He 's not really putting anything on the line if this turns out mediocre wort.

BeerGrylls said:

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You made me laugh, yes beatin the daylights out of this one.....now hand me a bigger club

johnsnownw said:

That is interesting. Though backs the theory that it is limited in what it can produce.

She entered 6 styles, 3 of which ranked dead last, and one 2nd to last. Two did get 1st and 2nd...so that does sound promising...for certain styles.

It's also interesting that the Party Porter she won at the XBrew comp., ranked last at the Novemberfest comp. I don't know if that speaks to the quality of the entrants at Novemberfest, or the inability of the PicoBrew to consistently make the same quality beer.

Now the question is, what equipment and methods are they using to ferment the wort? Because they aren't winning without fermentation temperature control equipment...I guarantee it.

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I'll be happy to trade with you once I get my machine so you can settle it with your own tastebuds.

Though I'm not really into light pilsners and lagers so even if there is a slight DMS issue, which I don't believe there is, it doesn't bother me as much as it might others.

In my eyes, this takes care of the primary hassles of brewing. Yeah, I still have to make a starter, chill it down after and ferment it but that's child's play compared to an 8 hour AG brew day.

1 hour of hands on time as opposed to 9 hours of hands on time is certainly worth $1600 to me when spread across multiple brews.

jaywhy said:

I'll be happy to trade with you once I get my machine so you can settle it with your own tastebuds.

Though I'm not really into light pilsners and lagers so even if there is a slight DMS issue, which I don't believe there is, it doesn't bother me as much as it might others.

In my eyes, this takes care of the primary hassles of brewing. Yeah, I still have to make a starter, chill it down after and ferment it but that's child's play compared to an 8 hour AG brew day.

1 hour of hands on time as opposed to 9 hours of hands on time is certainly worth $1600 to me when spread across multiple brews.

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You'll have to bring it over...I pretty much exclusively keg Though I really should look into a beer-gun.

Well, for me, it's still too much work and money for max. 2.5 gallons.

johnsnownw said:

Yeah...because the methodology is the same? I'm sorry, but there is no way in hell that the pico system is, in any meaningful way, similar to pro brewing. The recipes won't translate, the machine can't match the complexity, and it doesn't use the same techniques.

Look, if you want to use this system as a "brewing lite" applicance, fine...but it's not a mini brewery.

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You posit the methodology is different - interesting.

But after reading your post 3 times I do not see where you support that argument.

EDIT: Sorry, rash post (and I've read through the thread, dead horse, although people ARE posting very strong opinions for something that isn't out yet... when the whole point of the original post was getting people's feedback on the concept/proposed product. )