Crystal in an O'fest?

Seen conflicting statements and recipes. What say ye?

I'd vote for a little Caramunich. Not a ton; enough to add a bit of sweetness, not enough to take away from the "session-ability" of it.

I agree with the bird. As long as the brewer demonstrates restraint, it can be a wonderful addition.

Good question, something I have wondered too...
BJCP says it may include "some crystal malt" but "Noticeable caramel or roasted flavors are inappropriate."

I used 1lb of Caramunich in mine, and so far I am happy even though it is not even done fermenting.

As others have stated, used in the right amounts it can be perfectly appropriate. I'd agree with Bird and go the caramunich route though.

I say Nein. Here's mine. I use a WLP029 and do it as a very clean ale.

5.5# Pils
5.5# Vienna
2# Munich
0.5# Caramunich
0.5# Caravienne

Single infusion mash at 154 degrees for 90 minutes.

1 oz. Tettnang 4.4% AA at 60 min.
0.5 oz Hallertau 4.2 % AA at 30 Min
0.5 oz. Hallertau 4.2% AA at 15 min

O.G. 1.062
F.G. 1.012

EdWort said:

I say Nein. Here's mine. I use a WLP029 and do it as a very clean ale.

5.5# Pils
5.5# Vienna
2# Munich
0.5# Caramunich
0.5# Caravienne

Single infusion mash at 154 degrees for 90 minutes.

1 oz. Tettnang 4.4% AA at 60 min.
0.5 oz Hallertau 4.2 % AA at 30 Min
0.5 oz. Hallertau 4.2% AA at 15 min

O.G. 1.062
F.G. 1.012

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You don't consider Caramunich to be a crystal malt?

EdWort said:

I say Nein. Here's mine. ...0.5# Caramunich
0.5# Caravienne...

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Ah, but if you are using those two, you are using crystal malts!
http://byo.com/mrwizard/776.html

Edit: Dammit, Bird beat me to it!

I actually brewed an Ofest lager with 100% Munich and a double decoction mash. Came out really good, but it was lacking a hint of sweetness, it was more like a light Munchen Dunkel.

You should add an "I don't know" voting option. Oktoberfest isn't a style I'm really familiar with brewing. I voted arbitrarily because I wanted to see the poll results.

I like the look of Ed's recipe, and that's about the quantity that I'd be thinking; a pound, tops, per five gallons to get that sweetness without it becoming cloying.

Damn, I love me an Oktoberfest!

I was going that direction myself, but started reading about how some folks are insistent that it doesn't belong. I didn't know for sure myself, so I wanted to get a black & white sampling of what HBT'ers thought, hence no "I don't know" option. I know "it's my beer and I should do what I want", but I'm curious.

I'm brewing this to serve at my wedding in early September, since it's one of my favorite styles and it will be the right time of year to serve it. Plus, the first Oktoberfest commemorates the wedding of Prince Ludwig and Princess Therese in 1810, so it seems fitting. I've brewed O'fests before and I'd like this one to be as authentic as possible.

Yuri_Rage said:

You should add an "I don't know" voting option. Oktoberfest isn't a style I'm really familiar with brewing. I voted arbitrarily because I wanted to see the poll results.

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You do know there is a little button that says "show poll results" right Yuri?

I use 0.5 lbs of a crystal at 45 L. It's my best recipe to date.

clayof2day said:

You do know there is a little button that says "show poll results" right Yuri?

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Doh!

I used 10 oz. of two different types of Caramunich malts (Weyermann caramunich II and III) for a 5.5 gallon batch last summer, and I liked it.

I'm brewing one with a new formula this Sunday, and I'll probably go with about that much again.

As far as BJCP guidelines go, I didn't taste any significant caramel or roasted flavors with that much crystal malt.

No crystal or caramel malt in mine. An Oktoberfest beer made with good German malts (Vienna, Munich and some Pils) doesn't need any. The beer should be malty, not sweet, and the kilned base malts provide plenty of color. There are tons of published homebrew recipes for this style that contain crystal malts but most probably stem from the time when quality German base malts weren't easily available to the average homebrewer. With that in mind the crystals made sense because they served a purpose by modifying the color and adding extra, although not authentic, flavors to domestic or British pale malt or extracts. I do add 2 or 3% CaraFoam but that is for texture and doesn't add color or sweetness. If you are going to use crystal I agree with some of the previous posts on that issue: use CaraMunich or CaraVienna and go easy with it.

FWIW, JZ's calling for a pound of Caramunich in his recipe. Brew it with only Pils and Munich, seems to me that you're closer to a Helles Bock (not necessarily a bad thing).

Maybe Kai will chime in. I say no to crystal in an Oktoberfest, but that is because I am going with a traditional recipe. Pilsner + Munich = Oktobefest, lightly hopped which for me on my system means around 25ibu. Makes a great beer.

HAVING SAID THAT, I'm sure there are plenty of great, commercial Oktoberfests that are brewed with crystal and I'll enjoy them as readily as the next guy. Bottom line, it just comes down to personal preference and what your goals are. But do go light as others have mentioned if you decide to use it...actually, that's a good rule with crystal in ANY recipe in my opinion.

Rhoobarb said:

Ah, but if you are using those two, you are using crystal malts!
http://byo.com/mrwizard/776.html

Edit: Dammit, Bird beat me to it!

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Ok, let's split hairs Ja! It doesn't say crystal though.

the_bird said:

I like the look of Ed's recipe, and that's about the quantity that I'd be thinking; a pound, tops, per five gallons to get that sweetness without it becoming cloying.

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Thanks. I think it is the best beer I have ever brewed to date! With the kolsch yeast after 3 months, it was simply divine! It made it to the medal round at the Dixie Cup last year, but sadly did not place.

I use it in my O'fest and as long as the amount used is kept in check I think it is fine.

I think its fine. Just look at the Weyermann site where they list beer stykles that go well with their malts.

I use it to 10% in my Maerzen (classic Okoberfest) and none of it in my Oktoberfest (modern version).

You don't want it to stand out, but I don't see a problem with using it in this style.

Kai

I use a "little bit". Here's my recipe from last year, and btw, it's the best AG beer I've made yet. Well, according to all of my tasters anyways.

6lb munich
6lb vienna
4oz caramunich
8oz aromatic

0.5oz Perle(8.1%) 60min
1.5oz Tettnanger(4.5%) 15min
0.5oz Tettnanger(4.5%) 0min

Oh, it's a 6.5gal batch, so don't be afraid of the OG.

I like a little bit of medium crystal or CaraMunich in there, too. I do not know how authentic it is, but it works just fine, and some of the homebrewed versions with crystal I have sampled have been dead on for their Bavarian commercial counterparts.

I would like to brew one with more Munich malt and no crystal, just to see how it comes out, but that's far down on my "wanna brew" list.


TL

Just thinking about this again....for those who make their Maerzen without a crystal malt, what kind of Munich malt are you using? I know there are couple different kinds out there. For example Weyermann makes a Munich I (12-17 EBC) and a Munich II (20-25 EBC).

Beerrific said:

Just thinking about this again....for those who make their Maerzen without a crystal malt, what kind of Munich malt are you using? I know there are couple different kinds out there. For example Weyermann makes a Munich I (12-17 EBC) and a Munich II (20-25 EBC).

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I've used both of the Weyermann Munichs I and II in various combinations with Pilsner and Vienna malts. The II is my favorite because I like the deeper color and richness it gives to the beer. When used at about 70% of the grist it will get you a beautiful deep orange-amber beer. This is a darker beer than the contemporary German imports but perhaps more in keeping with what the brew might have looked like over a hundred years ago. Here are a couple of versions I have brewed in the last year.

This first one is similar in color to a beer like Dos XX Amber. The second looks more like some of the Sam Adams versions of Oktoberfest. If you want a modern looking brew like Spaten I would use about 60% Vienna and 20% each of Munich I and Pilsner malt. As far as the crystal malt goes I just don't see any reason to use it. Frankly I see crystal malt as an enhancement to color and a flavor booster in beer when you don't have base malt that will do the job.

Oktoberfest (medium color)

Category European Amber Lager
Subcategory Oktoberfest/Märzen
Recipe Type All Grain
Batch Size 10 gal.
Volume Boiled 12 gal.
Mash Efficiency 85 %
Total Grain/Extract 18.00 lbs.
Total Hops 3.0 oz.


8 lbs. German Light Munich
6 lbs. German Vienna
3 lbs. German 2-row Pils
1 lbs. German CaraFoam
2 oz. Spalt Spalter (Whole, 4.75 %AA) boiled 60 min.
1 oz. Spalt Spalter (Whole, 4.75 %AA) boiled 20 min.
Yeast : White Labs WLP820 Octoberfest/Märzen

Predicted Oktoberfest/Märzen Compliance
Original Gravity 1.053 1.050 - 1.056 100 %

Terminal Gravity 1.014 1.012 - 1.016 100 %

Color 7.91 °SRM 7.00 - 14.00 °SRM 100 %

Bitterness 22.3 IBU 20.00 - 28.00 IBU 100 %

Alcohol (%volume) 5.2 % 4.80 - 5.70 % 100 %

******

10 Gallons (deep color)

10 lbs Weyermann Munich II
5 lbs Weyermann Munich I
3 lbs Weyermann Pils
1 lb Carafoam

2 oz Spalt @ 60 minutes
1 oz Spalt @ 30 minutes

White Lab 838 Southern German yeast

Single decoction w/ decoction to mashout

132F for 15 minutes
152F for 60 minutes
168F for 10 minutes

est OG 1.058
est IBU 25