Double pitching?

I was just browsing Austin Homebrew, and I saw that they suggest buying twice the yeast for high gravity beers like the Trappist Belgian style etc. Is that even necessary?

Secondly, is a starter necessary if using Wyyeast? It seems like the point of a starter is to know if the yeast is doing its thing before pitching. Is that right?

Thanks for the help!

I don't think buying twice the yeast is the most cost effective option. Just make a big starter.

Big starters are definitely recommended for high gravity beers to get the cell count up.

+1 for Mr X. I wouldn't buy two packages either; make a huge starter and you will be good to go.

What do you guys consider to be a huge starter?

Last 1.080 brew I did, I made a 1L batch of 1.040 wort, fermented it out, decanted till I had about 500ml, pitched another 1L of wort, fermented that out, decanted, and pitched on the 5G batch. Using the calculator on mrmalty, he recommends 4+L starter. Seems uh... excessive. Maybe I didnt tweak the params correct or something.

Beer is right around 1.015 12 days after pitching. even though my starter was less than half of what was recommended.

/shrugs

s3n8 said:

What do you guys consider to be a huge starter?

Last 1.080 brew I did, I made a 1L batch of 1.040 wort, fermented it out, decanted till I had about 500ml, pitched another 1L of wort, fermented that out, decanted, and pitched on the 5G batch. Using the calculator on mrmalty, he recommends 4+L starter. Seems uh... excessive. Maybe I didnt tweak the params correct or something.

Beer is right around 1.015 12 days after pitching. even though my starter was less than half of what was recommended.

/shrugs

Click to expand...

yeah, I'm no expert by any means, but Mr. Malty recommended 2 packs of yeast. Wait...what?

see for yourself. The O.G. for the brew in question is 1.070

I think what MR Malty is saying is to make a 1 liter starter using a liquid yeast vial and then making another 3 liters of wort in a single container like a carboy as a starter and decanting and pitching the first liter yeast into it. That would be 4 liters of wort used but only fermented 2 times. Remember the rule that each starter fermented can be up to 10 times the volume of the previous starter.

Ref: http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/MB_Raines_Guide_to_Yeast_Culturing.php

I brew with a group, and up until now, all of our big beers have received a double-shot of White Labs yeast. We usually brew last-minute so a starter is out of the question. It gets wicked expensive from the LHBS, but it's still cheaper than only pitching one vial and losing the batch.

Now that we're brewing more often and regularly, we're starting to rack off the primary and save the yeast/trub cake in a sanitize jar (spaghetti sauce jar is just about the right size). Some number of days before brewing the next batch that can use that yeast, we'll make a starter. There's a limit to the number of days/weeks that jar can sit in the fridge, and there's a limit to the number of generations that are usable with this re pitch scheme, but it definitely saves money and adds some more work (work==fun when brewing).

I have the first experimental starter going in the laundry room as I type (it's a 'proof of concept' thing before we decide to trust the starter). It's pretty cool to watch the yeasties grow and get hungry again!

acr4 said:

I have the first experimental starter going in the laundry room as I type (it's a 'proof of concept' thing before we decide to trust the starter).

Click to expand...

I have never had a problem with starters as long as I start with a known good yeast. If you taste the decanted liquid "BEER" it should taste good. If it has anything wrong with it then it will taste weird and dump it by all means. I have used the same yeast for 6 brews and really want to see how far I can go as I have never lost a batch in over 36 years. Being sanitary with everything you touch helps to prevent bad beer.

slyngshot said:

yeah, I'm no expert by any means, but Mr. Malty recommended 2 packs of yeast. Wait...what?

see for yourself. The O.G. for the brew in question is 1.070

Click to expand...

Here's what I got:

Use 2.6 vials of liquid yeast OR 1 vial in a 3.45L starter (which, for a 5 gallon batch, qualifies as a pretty large starter in my book!)

ok. I'm not sure what I did wrong with Mr. Malty. I guess I only need one pack after all.

Here's what I've been thinking about. I've used about 6 different types of yeast so far in my vast brewing experience. Could I have taken a small amount of each yeast and saved a sample in the fridge to make starters with for future brews? It seems to be a logical move!

Bearcat Brewmeister said:

Jamil's Yeast Pitching Calculator

Click to expand...

Is there a calculator that tells your how much dry yeast to pitch?

EDIT: Now I see the tabs where it says "Dry Yeast", thats what I needed. Thanks for posting the calculator. Thats a great tool.

The calculator says for any OG over 1.059 more than one packet will be needed. Do you think thats really necessary? I did a 1.080 with one packet of dry and it so far has turned out great.

I've done one in that range with a pack of Nottingham and it turned out good, but I probably wouldn't do it again.

slyngshot said:

Could I have taken a small amount of each yeast and saved a sample in the fridge to make starters with for future brews? It seems to be a logical move!

Click to expand...

Absolutely! A lot of folks keep a sort of yeast "library" using that method. If you're really gung-ho, do a little searching on yeast propagation from slants.

doubleb said:

The calculator says for any OG over 1.059 more than one packet will be needed. Do you think thats really necessary? I did a 1.080 with one packet of dry and it so far has turned out great.

Click to expand...

Under pitching yeast can lead to some off flavors. For example if you under pitch some wheat yeasts the banana flavor is much more prevelent then the clove when they both should be balanced.

Breweries generally use at least the equivilent of 1 tube per gallon. If you look for expert advice or use calculators they will all tell you that you are not using enough yeast. They tell you that for a reason.

We are recommending that you follow that expert advise and at least pitch 2 vial in a high gravity beer. The yeast will struggle and there is a good chance of a stuck fermentation if you do not.

Forrest

Austinhomebrew said:

Under pitching yeast can lead to some off flavors. For example if you under pitch some wheat yeasts the banana flavor is much more prevelent then the clove when they both should be balanced.

Breweries generally use at least the equivilent of 1 tube per gallon. If you look for expert advice or use calculators they will all tell you that you are not using enough yeast. They tell you that for a reason.

We are recommending that you follow that expert advise and at least pitch 2 vial in a high gravity beer. The yeast will struggle and there is a good chance of a stuck fermentation if you do not.

Forrest

Click to expand...

Here's my issue with this advice. I just went to my LHBS and asked about this issue. The guy there told me he doesn't double pitch unless he's doing something 1.080 or more. He told me that a large starter would be just fine.

It seems like there's some controversy on the topic so I guess it'll be up to me to figure out what works for me! It seems like because the beer I'm brewing is on the borderline or med/high gravity that people are on both sides of the fence.

slyngshot said:

Here's my issue with this advice. I just went to my LHBS and asked about this issue. The guy there told me he doesn't double pitch unless he's doing something 1.080 or more. He told me that a large starter would be just fine.

It seems like there's some controversy on the topic so I guess it'll be up to me to figure out what works for me! It seems like because the beer I'm brewing is on the borderline or med/high gravity that people are on both sides of the fence.

Click to expand...

I think people are thinking that we are saying not to make a starter with a single yeast. You can either make a starter or double pitch.

We are giving people the option of pitching more instead of making a starter. Some people don't want to spend the time to make a starter.

The cost of a liquid yeast is not even the same as anhour at minimum wage so some would rather double pitch.

Forrest

Austinhomebrew said:

I think people are thinking that we are saying not to make a starter with a single yeast. You can either make a starter or double pitch.

We are giving people the option of pitching more instead of making a starter. Some people don't want to spend the time to make a starter.

The cost of a liquid yeast is not even the same as anhour at minimum wage so some would rather double pitch.

Forrest

Click to expand...

I'm not trying to start a debate, but I'm just looking for clarification. This is what you said earlier, and I'm pretty sure it contradicts the above statement.

"Under pitching yeast can lead to some off flavors. For example if you under pitch some wheat yeasts the banana flavor is much more prevelent then the clove when they both should be balanced.

Breweries generally use at least the equivilent of 1 tube per gallon. If you look for expert advice or use calculators they will all tell you that you are not using enough yeast. They tell you that for a reason.

We are recommending that you follow that expert advise and at least pitch 2 vial in a high gravity beer. The yeast will struggle and there is a good chance of a stuck fermentation if you do not."

Slyngshot wrote:

I'm not trying to start a debate, but I'm just looking for clarification. This is what you said earlier, and I'm pretty sure it contradicts the above statement.

Click to expand...

It isn't a contradiction at all. Forrest was just telling you the amount of yeast needed in the first statement. He went on to tell you in the second that the method of adding that much yeast would be to use the amount of tubes or make a starter.

If you use the calculator Jamil (Mr. Malty) kindly has provided at no charge, you will see that for each beer, ales, hybrids, or lagers at different gravities, the calculator will provide the amount of tubes, packs you will need if pitching straight in, providing a simple starter, stirred starter and so on. All very much worked out to give you the ideal pitching rate.

If you notice on the calculator it give several drop down boxes and each needs to be correctly picked to give the correct pitch rate. For lagers at a certain size and gravity you might have to pitch 6 or more tubes or the equivilant starter. Just depends on all the factors involved.

So it sounds like if you don't have the time to make a starter, dropping 2 vials of liquid yeast is a slightly more expensive alternative that works very well.

Stevorino said:

So it sounds like if you don't have the time to make a starter, dropping 2 vials of liquid yeast is a slightly more expensive alternative that works very well.

Click to expand...

I think that's the bottom line, or was, haha!