IPA Hop Astringency

I know I am not the only one who experiences this. I've recently come out of denial to say that my IPAs suck. I've done water adjustments, used different malts, used different hops, different fermentation temps, etc. I can not (so far) make a great, or even a decent, ipa.

I've continued to make ipas in hope that I can eventually pin point my problems. And today I think I finally have an answer: HOP ASTRINGENCY

Now my question is how can I make a good IPA with lots of good high alpha acid hops that doesn't taste astringent.

I've had some craft IPAs that have this flavor also, most notably Zombie Dust by 3 Floyd's. Since I've been perfecting my astringency tasting abilities (not always a good thing) I can actually say I do not like that beer, and actually don't see how anyone does, ya it smells good (citra hops do) but the taste is very hop astringent to me.

From what I've read, hop astringency comes from the vegetative mass of the hops, basically the more hops that are added to the beer the more tannins that get released into the beer. These tannins bond to proteins in the beer and become unnoticed. The taste you precieve is from the unbonded tannins coming in contact with taste buds.

What my IPA variations have shown me is that the higher the sulfate levels the more the hop tannins are precieved. (Some times causing undrinkable beer) so I'm thinking that my IPAs either
A) have too much vegetative matter being in contact with beer for too long (aka hop particles in the fermenter)
B) there are not enough proteins in my beer per hop tannins to effectively reduce them
C) both A) and B)

My question to the HBT members is: has anyone else had this problem and come up with a way to fix it. I love IPAs and man do my Ipas look awesome and smell freaking phenomenal but taste like ****
I've heard too high of wort pH can contribute to this
Feel free to input your experiences

http://www.winning-homebrew.com/astringency.html

Check out the list of causes. Check off the ones you know aren't happening. If all are checked calibrate your thermometer. If that and bleach doesn't fix it, give up making ipas

This exact topic came up a few months ago where a guy had astringency and basically said he fixed everything but still had a problem. I gave up reading the updates because he never seemed to figure it out. I'm sure if you search for astringency it will dig up that thread.

I also think that if something like this is happening and you've already tried fixes, something very wrong I'd happening. Are you using your own recipes, or ones from the internet?

How about some recipe info? Astringency can also be perceived as bitterness. There's a hell of a possibility that you're just using too much hops at the wrong times and not properly accounting for bitterness from late additions. Just a guess based on the lack of info in this thread.

Starting water:
Ca: 79 ppm Mg: 25 Na: 19.3 Cl: 57 So4: 51 CaCO3: 225
Cut 50% with distilled water from store and added 1g gypsum(part of my experimentation on this one)
6 gallons batch
My last recipe was:
15# Marris otter (mutons)
2# munich 1 (weyermans)
1# crystal/carmel 60*L (briess)
Mashed @153 until fully converted via iodine/chalk test (75ish minutes) @ 1.2 lbs per quart collected runnings and sparged 165-168 for 20 minutes with enough water to get my total runnings to 7.5 gallons
Hops
Summit and centineal mixed and weighed out
2oz @ 20min
1oz @ 15
1oz @ 10
1 @ 5
OG 1.072 at 70*
Fg was 1.012
Left in during cooling in my hop spider with a 10gal paint strainer bag
Cooling time was maybe 20-30 minutes to 70*
Fermented in bucket with proper yeast amounts propagated on my stirplate
Using wyeast 1056
Fermented in swamp cooler with water temps at 55-60 degrees so I'm guessing 65-70 degree internal temps
I let that ferment about 2 weeks then sit another week at 70-75 ambient to degass some more before I dry hopped with 3 oz of the hop mix (in a 1 gallons strainer bag) for 10 more days.
Racked and let that sit about another week while I was waiting on my cousin to sell me his kegerator. Then kegged and drank

I'd say go with 100% RO water, and add almost no gypsum. That's what I've been doing for some IPAs, and the full hops flavor is there, but without the harsh bitterness.

Say, in a 5 gallon batch 100% RO water with 5 grams of calcium chloride. And nothing else.

I just updated my previous post and added my water profile and my OG

KuntzBrewing said:

I just updated my previous post and added my water profile and my OG

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That water profile is your tap water, and you cut it with distilled after that, at 50%? The caC03 is still pretty darn high!

Also, sparge water! With that profile, you'd either have to acidify the sparge water or dilute about 75% with distilled or RO water. A lot of the harshness would be coming from that. My preference would be to use all RO water for one batch, as I think that is a big issue here.

theveganbrewer said:

http://www.winning-homebrew.com/astringency.html

Check out the list of causes. Check off the ones you know aren't happening. If all are checked calibrate your thermometer. If that and bleach doesn't fix it, give up making ipas

This exact topic came up a few months ago where a guy had astringency and basically said he fixed everything but still had a problem. I gave up reading the updates because he never seemed to figure it out. I'm sure if you search for astringency it will dig up that thread.

Click to expand...

Checked out the link. I don't think I'm having grain astringency as only my IPAs have this problem that's why I'm thinking its hop derived

Yooper said:

Also, sparge water! With that profile, you'd either have to acidify the sparge water or dilute about 75% with distilled or RO water. A lot of the harshness would be coming from that. My preference would be to use all RO water for one batch, as I think that is a big issue here.

Click to expand...

Using pure RO water should I still add salts?

hop sediment? I've noticed regularly that towards the end of a glass of a heavily dryhopped beer, that it gets a bit astringent. I usually have a bit of hop sediment at the bottom of the glass.

KuntzBrewing said:

Using pure RO water should I still add salts?

Click to expand...

For the first trial batch, only 5 grams of calcium chloride to the mash water. Use 100% RO for the sparge. I think if that comes out great (and it should), but the hops are muted, then consider adding gypsum in small amounts each batch until you're at a level you like. Continue to sparge with RO water though unless you're acidifying the sparge water.

I know that Mosher's "pale ale profile" has like 350 ppm of sulfate, but I've found that I really really like my IPAs with far less- like 50-70 ppm, with very low alkalinity in my water.

It seems like a high bicarb level really makes hops harsh. I made a kolsch with my tap water once, and even though it's not hoppy the hops presence was harsh and astringent due to my water having such a high bicarbonate level.

If you first drop the alkalinity, then you can add back as much sulfate as you want. But I found that less is actually really good!

You know, I was just thinking. Mabrungard posts often in the brewing science forum (look at his spreadsheet, bru'nwater to do water modifications) and you could definitely get better information from him regarding water modifications in your area.

I'm not even close to well versed in water chemistry, and aside from having a similar flavor from hops in my untreated water, I really don't have much knowledge. He lives in Indiana, and talks about the water challenges he has, so I know he can really relate good and practical advice about the impact alkaline water can have on hops presence.

Thanks Yooper. I cant wait to try this out!

Yea that's a ton of bicarbonate. When I went to 100% RO, and started to acidify the sparge, and the mash if necessary, my beers got way better. Pretty much eliminated my astringency.

tgmartin000 said:

Yea that's a ton of bicarbonate. When I went to 100% RO, and started to acidify the sparge, and the mash if necessary, my beers got way better. Pretty much eliminated my astringency.

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How much do you acidify in your sparge water. How do you determine how much acid to add. Since all ro/ distilled water should start at 7.0 pH

I have little add, since my IPAs have all until this point have been flat out killer, but I can't believe you don't like Zombie Dust..

Anyways, I use RO water straight, and I add salts and gypsum to my mash water, and I sparge with straight RO. I've never had the astringency you speak off, and I've bombed some IPA's with north of 8oz of hops in a 5g batch.. Citra, Simcoe, Amarillo and Cascade.

KuntzBrewing said:

How much do you acidify in your sparge water. How do you determine how much acid to add. Since all ro/ distilled water should start at 7.0 pH

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Straight RO water would be fine, or acidify your tap water. Bru'n water spreadsheet has a sparge water acidification tool, using a variety of acids and how much you need. Phosphoric acid is the most common, and taste neutral.

KuntzBrewing said:

How much do you acidify in your sparge water. How do you determine how much acid to add. Since all ro/ distilled water should start at 7.0 pH

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I use Brun' Water to figure it. I think it usually works out to about 0.35 mL of lactic acid.

You can also use acidulated malt in the mash to get your pH levels right.

I use EZ Water to calculate my mash acidification, and Brun' Water to do my sparge acidification. I find EZ is a little closer on the mash pH.

When I plug in my recipes it still shows me at 5.6 pH at 1.2qts/lb in the mash. Seems a little high with pure distilled/RO water

Yep. I use pH strips to test, so I don't get an exact pH, but it seems close to ez water.

Update: Latest IPA had no signs of astringency. Used pure distilled water. 2g gypsum, 3 g cacl taste is pretty rounded. I kegged it but I'm hoping the co2 will help out its not fully carbed yet.
Once its carbed I am contemplating on adding a gram or more of gypsum (to taste) I have no reason to believe adding salts can only happen in the mash. The properties of it on taste can are not a byproduct of mashing/boiling/hopping they are independent and therefore could be added at anytime

I think you might have a tough time getting the gypsum to dissolve and distribute through the beer well enough once you've carbed it... It would gush like crazy, and you'd have to stir it in, even if you mix it with some water before hand. The good thing you have going is, the while gypsum isn't as soluble in water, it's better if the water is colder.

Even tho the pH of the beer is probably around 4.2? I would assume there wouldnt be a huge problem

Have at it!

I personally wouldn't expect myself to be able to pick up another gram of gypsum post fermentation, but people can detect different flavors in beer anyways, so it's not out of the realm of being done.