Do you think the professional breweries tell the truth
- Thread starter reinstone
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
Anyone can brew any beer but not everyone can brew any beer at any time.
ArcaneXor
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2007
- Messages
- 4,502
- Reaction score
- 128
From someone who has some pro-am experience... the recipe changes (slightly) every time you get in a new batch of ingredients. Lots of variables to adjust for to keep the product consistent.
So breweries who publish their recipes are publishing a snapshot in time. There is much more to a beer than a list of ingredients. So they have little to lose in publishing recipes.
So breweries who publish their recipes are publishing a snapshot in time. There is much more to a beer than a list of ingredients. So they have little to lose in publishing recipes.
Give two brewers the exact same recipe and have them brew it. They're not going to be identical beers. Brewing is only partially recipe, the rest is process. There's a reason why every time a pro brewer changes equipment configuration, either the recipe or the process has to change slightly to get the same beer. Boil strength, boil volume, kettle design, fermenter design, batch size, all of these things have an impact on flavor. So they have no reason to hide their recipes.
Your big macro level breweries blend batches to match particular flavor profiles.
Smaller micro and local breweries don't have the storage capacity to do this. So there can be nuance differences from batch to batch. Which to me is the beauty and art of brewing beer. Every time it is going to be slightly different. And the difference between a brewer, and a great brewer is their ability to match and repeat the same beer over and over again.
Smaller micro and local breweries don't have the storage capacity to do this. So there can be nuance differences from batch to batch. Which to me is the beauty and art of brewing beer. Every time it is going to be slightly different. And the difference between a brewer, and a great brewer is their ability to match and repeat the same beer over and over again.
Let's face it, most home brewers (including me) have had trouble doing a kit correctly. If that wasn't true, 2/3 of the threads here on HBT wouldn't exist. So I'm pretty sure that the pros have little fear that we're going to cut into their profit share. If you listen to CYBI, you'll hear JZ and Tasty say the recipes are legit and there are many pros who are very supportive of the home brew community b/c they know we buy and spread the word about their beers. I have, however, heard some brewers protect certain processes or techniques that are cutting edge, and I have no problem with that.
BreezyBrew
IPA is my spirit animal
^ This. I know the recipe for Rogue Dead Guy on their website has malt variety that hasn't existed for years.
In my mind, the one thing that pro brewers seem to keep a secret is the water profiles. I'd guess everything else is fairly accurate.
GrogNerd
mean old man
Starr Hill is tight-lipped about their recipes
reasoning is that we wouldn't appreciate it/it wouldn't be as satisfying if we didn't work it out ourselves
reasoning is that we wouldn't appreciate it/it wouldn't be as satisfying if we didn't work it out ourselves
alane1
Well-Known Member
why would it matter to the big guys, even if you made the same brew comercialy why would you want to make the same exact beer as someone else.Kind of unoriginal if you ask me.
I completely agree. I have never been interested in cloning any commercial brew. I am very much inspired by commercial beers I have drank but never have I wanted to copy them verbatim. What is the point? Go buy a sixer of it and save some money, seriously. I guess people see it as a challenge but I think trying to piece it out yourself and dial it in is much more the point of a challenge instead of copying a recipe a brewer gives you to duplicate it to the letter.
Just my .02.
aiptasia
Well-Known Member
This. I think they're supportive of the homebrew world because most of the indie brewers came up from their ranks. I also think it honors them to have people attempt clone beers. It's the ultimate form of flattery and they know that homebrewers aren't going to be mass producing and retailing clones.
I've found that the micros that produce whales are more protective over those beer recipes.
Challenge accepted. As aforementioned, CYBI's entire show is based on it and hundreds of avid homebrewers attempt clones based on what they taste in the commercial example all the time. For example, stone will give you every recipe if you ask for it, except for one, Arrogant Bastard. Didn't stop CYBI from attempting it five times, until they got it just right.
GrogNerd
mean old man
good point
as a shiny n00b, I'm not really looking for the challenge of figuring clones out myself, the process of brewing by itself is enough challenge right now. but I do like research as to what makes it taste the way it does, and I think a recipe helps
love Northern Lights, and SH at least lists the grains and hops used, if not the exact grain bill or hop schedule. guess I don't need the exact recipe to figure the rest out, but it would help.
a wise man once said, "it's all beer, it's all good"
no, wait... he was an idiot, but it's still true
BigRedHopHead
Well-Known Member
I disagree with your post. I don't have the time to fiddle with tirelessly trying to figure out batches. I know what I like, and I would like to recreate it quickly. It is no different than copying Emeril's gumbo (which I am doing today). Cloning is very popular for these reasons and more more. This is exactly the point, and why we have entire issues, publications, podcasts, etc.... devoted to cloning beers. This way someone else who has the time can do the dirty work and and I can copy it. I really enjoy this hobby, but with a family and a career I have to partition my time.
BigRedHopHead
Well-Known Member
To answer the OP's question directly, Yes. I think the craft breweries generally tell the truth. Heck most of the time they post the ingredients on their website for each beer, just not quantities. I think many of the clone recipes are for beers that have just about maximized their potential for $$. i.e. SN pale ale.
I'm sure you've heard the adage "It's not about the destination. It's about the journey." I also have a family and own my own small business so my time is at a premium as well but I just think copying down recipes and doing them verbatim is totally missing the point. The best cooks, brewers, writers, and artists in general very seldom do something 100% original but just as seldom do they copy a recipe or example verbatim. It is interpretation of an existing example that is the greatest teacher. Almost every time I have tried to interpret a recipe instead of copying it verbatim the end product is better than the original because it is tailored to my tastes. Please try it sometime instead of copying a recipe verbatim. I'm not talking about brewing the same thing over and over and over to get it exactly like the example. I am talking about taking an educated guess at what went into the original and mutating it. THat is called evolution.
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
I find that a BS reason. If they don't want to give out their recipes, that's their right, and I'm fine with it. But then just say you don't want to. To claim you're doing homebrewers a service by not giving out your recipes is farcical. Its up to each homebrewer to decide if working out the recipe on their own, or working out their own style, is important to them. And for the homebrewers who want to be the best brewers they can be, then yes, figuring things like that out on their own are important. Problem is, many homebrewers don't fall into that category, and you wouldn't be doing them any disservice by giving them a recipe.
So by all means, withhold your recipe, but just do it on the grounds that you don't want to give it out, not by claiming you're protecting all the poor homebrewers out there by not giving it out.
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
Homebrewing doesn't have the same "point" for everyone.
Absolutely, but not everyone who brews wants to be the best. Some of them just want to make beer.
To be clear, I completely agree with you as far as how I like to brew. I tweak things, I play around with things to find out how things work and to make things that are truly mine. I just get annoyed when people try to tell other folks what they should consider important as far as brewing philosophy, which is what it felt like you were doing. Perhaps I was wrong.
I find that a BS reason. If they don't want to give out their recipes, that's their right, and I'm fine with it. But then just say you don't want to. To claim you're doing homebrewers a service by not giving out your recipes is farcical. Its up to each homebrewer to decide if working out the recipe on their own, or working out their own style, is important to them. And for the homebrewers who want to be the best brewers they can be, then yes, figuring things like that out on their own are important. Problem is, many homebrewers don't fall into that category, and you wouldn't be doing them any disservice by giving them a recipe.
So by all means, withhold your recipe, but just do it on the grounds that you don't want to give it out, not by claiming you're protecting all the poor homebrewers out there by not giving it out.
Yeah, I agree that that was a bad way of saying it. It comes off sounding like he's a father figure to homebrewers and he's showing them some tough love. Please.
It is absolutely none of my business how another brewer goes about his craft. I was just offering my .02 on the subject of "To Clone or Not to Clone" and why I do not do clone recipes. Also I was offering my thoughts on why homebrewers should try and ween themselves off clone recipes but if they want to stick with that because they enjoy it, that is 100% their business and power to em :fro:
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
I sent a brewery a question about how much pecan they use in their pecan beer, because i was brewing a pecan porter as part of an iron brewer competition. Their response was "I'm sure you understand why we can't share any information about our recipes." I felt like writing back "actually no, I can't understand in the slightest why you think your recipe is so important that you won't even share some ballpark figures on pecan additions."
I sent a brewery a question about how much pecan they use in their pecan beer, because i was brewing a pecan porter as part of an iron brewer competition. Their response was "I'm sure you understand why we can't share any information about our recipes." I felt like writing back "actually no, I can't understand in the slightest why you think your recipe is so important that you won't even share some ballpark figures on pecan additions."
That illuminates an interesting disparity in the brewing community. Most small scale craft brewers I talk to love to talk shop and share recipes and specific ideas on what they do with me. And even some bigger guys have been helpful through email correspondences (Sixpoint and Upland in particular) but usually the bigger the brewery the more tight-lipped and less helpful they are to other brewers.
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
Yes, there is quite an interesting spectrum there. And then with Stone, you even have that spectrum within one brewery, as they have published numerous recipes in books and magazines, they did the whole homebrew version of each vertical epic on their webpage, and I'm told they're generally quite helpful if you ask them for brewing information. EXCEPT if its about arrogant bastard, in which case they will tell you nothing.
GrogNerd
mean old man
nothing wrong with a map or tour guide, not to get you where you're going faster or easier, but maybe to point out the interesting things along the way that you might otherwise miss
recipe is just a map, brewing from it is the journey
I know this discussion has moved into why they may or may not want to share recipes & secrets, and I don't want to digress from that because the replies have been enlightening & enjoyable. But ... basically, it's my belief that if pros share their recipes, one may safely assume they are being truthful.
Because think of the alternative: if they provided a fake recipe or lied about ingredients, can you imagine the backlash in the wide-ranging communities of beer aficionados, home brewers, and trade orgs? It's not like we're judgmental and grudge-holdy or anything.
I could maybe see them being tight-lipped about certain parts of the process (like mash or fermentation temps), but not lying outright about the components in the recipe. Unless they want to invite the infinite searing wrath of all the exploding supernovas ever.
I think the biggest trade secret is hop extracts. The brewing industry depends on them for consistent bitter to bitter character. The famous Pliny the Elder recipe published by Vinnie did not include hop extract in the recipe.
Lagunitas uses copious amounts of hop extract in hop stupid. We'll never know the exact chemical properties of hop extracts used.
Lagunitas uses copious amounts of hop extract in hop stupid. We'll never know the exact chemical properties of hop extracts used.
william_shakes_beer
Well-Known Member
I believe the macro breweries are tight lipped about their recipies because most of them compete to sell light lagers that are nearly identical in taste. By contrast, the smaller breweries rely on beer that sell to folks like us at a premium price and vary widely in taste. Those that ask for recipies do so because they appreciate good beer. Try asking grandma for her recipie for peanut butter fudge. Its one thing to say " this tastes great" its a compliment on a whole higher level to ask for the recipie. Discussion on these forums drive more people to seek discussed beers and provide potential to expended their distribution radius. Word of mouth advertising is less expensive and more effective than superbowl ads. I bought a case of DFH Raison D' Etre to see if I liked it long before i brewed the clone.
The secret ingredient use to be yeast. Now with White and Wyeast we can get yeast that is pretty close to the commercial guys, the the adventurous can farm the bottle dregs to get closer. Some breweries still hold tight to proprietary yeast strains and yeast strains have a significant contribution to the finished product...the grain bill, hops, mash profile, etc. are just a piece of the puzzle.
I find that a BS reason. If they don't want to give out their recipes, that's their right, and I'm fine with it. But then just say you don't want to. To claim you're doing homebrewers a service by not giving out your recipes is farcical. [snip] So by all means, withhold your recipe, but just do it on the grounds that you don't want to give it out, not by claiming you're protecting all the poor homebrewers out there by not giving it out.
I agree totally with this. The brewmaster came off kinda high handed and uppity to my mind, lind of like the people who blithly state "it's the journey, not the destination". Well for this guy with two jobs, a wife, and a kid who's busy outside school five days a week I don't have the time for some enlightened "journey". I'd just like to brew "that beer" that I liked so much and learn through that process to a known exemplar, the commercial bottle.
To use a cooking anology, I've found it easier to use a recipe to learn from a known sample how the ingredients mix and marry than to throw stuff together and guess which interactions produced what I'm tasting. For me it pays to start at a list of knowns then tweak one item at a time, learning what they contribute to the mix. Working out the recipe on your own (esp for a nOOb like me) gives me a laundry list of unknowns to sort out before even getting close to the taste I'm looking for.
Take the leffe clone I have in the works. I dont have the experience to get appreciably close on the first try on my own from scratch. I also dont have the time to go through 3-5+ batches tweaking along the way to get what I want, not including making allowances for equipment variables (another boogyman). Yeah each will produce beer, but it aint the beer I want.
As far as the breweries giving accurate information, I think they do. I can't see that they see us as a threat to their bottom line. Homebrewers may seem rather thick on the ground here but "out in the world" I think were more thinly spread. Plus I think it's been said that recipe buzz directs attention to their product to a certain dregree.
For starters, I actually enjoy homebrewing. It's not a chore to brew, it's fun. And so while I'm homebrewing, why not brew a beer that I like, like Bell's Two Hearted IPA? I can use Bell's as a model to judge my process. It's especially useful if I know the basic recipe to start with.
Also, I can brew Two Hearted for about 1/3 the price that I can buy it locally (Price per 6-pack vs cost of 6 bottles of a 5 gallon batch of homebrew), so I'd rather Homebrew and save some money, seriously.
TrubHead
Well-Known Member
I'm of the same mindset here. Enjoy brewing, appreciate the learning process and along the way save some cash for other hobbies/expenses.
I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything about homebrewing being a chore or not. I only said that I personally prefer to be inspired by a finished product and figure out along the way what gets me close to those examples instead of just coloring within the lines.
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
But you did ask what's the point of cloning a recipe, and he was, as I read it, answering that question. "The point" for him is that he enjoys the process, and then gets to enjoy the end result.
norsk
Well-Known Member
I'm fortunate to live close to several breweries and brew masters who are very forthcoming with advice and details on how they brew their beers. I usually brew to get close to one of their beers I like the most, then after the first one I tailor the next one to make it into something I like even more. Once in a while I bring in my own beer for a comparison and tasting with the brew master. Amazing what these guys can tell from just a sip of beer...
highgravitybacon
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2012
- Messages
- 925
- Reaction score
- 223
I sent a brewery a question about how much pecan they use in their pecan beer, because i was brewing a pecan porter as part of an iron brewer competition. Their response was "I'm sure you understand why we can't share any information about our recipes." I felt like writing back "actually no, I can't understand in the slightest why you think your recipe is so important that you won't even share some ballpark figures on pecan additions."
Because 10 years from now, you're going to open a nano brewery that will springboard into a 300bbl regional powerhouse. Over the next 5 years, you will create an ultimate pecan beer clone, Identical Clone, that you will pump out of your now 900 bbl brewhouse, and release to the market at cost. This will be so cheap that the brewery you got the recipe from wont be able to compete in the pecan flavored beer market. They will fold under your great might . You will then control 96% of the pecan beer industry all because one micro brewery foolishly gave you a ballpark figure of their pecan content 20 years ago.
The reason pro breweries won't release their recipes is simple: there's zero incentive to do so, and the risks of releasing it are unknown.
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
I disagree that the incentive is zero. Building goodwill and positive brand image with home brewers has value. How much value? I sure don't know, but giving some of the most passionate beer drinkers around an additional reason to like your brewery has value.
Similar threads
