First gluten free all grain attempt

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glutarded-chris

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I finally took the plunge and joined the gluten free all grain club with a batch I put in the fermenter yesterday. I have been experimenting with changes in my process to give a thinner wart at the end of the mash and it worked pretty well. I used a total grain bill of 14 lb. I did a mini one gallon sparge and collected 7 gallons of 1.047 wart. With a 90 minute boil, I easily ended up with 5.5 gallons. I had planned to boost with a little maltodextrin, but didn’t need it. With a little over 23 ppg, I pitched to 5.5 gal of 1.060 wart. Now I will see what it is like without any sorghum at all!

Pretty basic recipe:

Grain (all malts from Grouse):
10 lb millet pale malt
0.75 lb millet medium roast malt
0.75 lb millet crystal malt
0.5 lb flaked corn (cereal mashed)
2 lb buckwheat pale malt (cereal mashed)

Hops (41 IBU calculated):
0.58 oz Columbus 15.6% (boiled for 60 minutes)
1.0 oz Cascade 6.5% (boiled for 15 minutes)
1.3 oz Cascade 6.5% (at flameout and steeped for 15 minutes)
1.25 oz Cascade (dry hop)

Other:
1 whirlfloc tab
5 teaspoons yeast nutrient
1.5 packets Safale US-05 dry yeast pitched on wart surface
 
Looks like you found a process that is working for you.
I bet you wont go back to sorghum, once you taste this batch.
sometime you should try the biscut rice and James brown rice from Eckert as specialty malts....they are exelent.
 
I have been thinking about getting some biscuit and James Brown rice and using it instead of the dark roasted millet on a batch. This last batch killed my stock of millet pale, so I will be ordering a bunch of grain. Does anyone sell Eckert and Grouse grains?
 
Yes, seems the price went up 40% !!!
The Munich does sound intriguing. I did not know Munich was considered a base malt. I think I will pick some up but have to decide how much to get.
 
WOW, violent fermentation! I normally get steady fermentation but never even close to needing a blow off tube with my previous batches using partial mash and sorghum syrup. I left this batch for a few days and nearly got a mess. When I came back to check on it, the fermentation was done, krausen debri all the way up to the top of the big mouth bubbler (plenty of head space) and the airlock filled with yeast and krausen. This thing almost blew its lid!
 
Chris, what mash schedule did you use? My wife is very gluten intolerant. She can't even have an Obsession without a mild reaction. So, I've been reading how to do a millet all-grain. (She doesn't like the sorghum beers she's tried.) I've only done 2-3 all-grain batches of regular brew, so I'm a little new to all-grain, and gluten-free all-grain seems to be a whole new skill set.
 
Kato: I did an IPA with the Briesse sorghum syrup and some brown rice syrup, and thought it was about the best GF brew I've had. A couple people I shared it with liked it, and one wanted to buy what I had left. So, if you don't want to go the all grain route, might be an option.
 
Kato: I did an IPA with the Briesse sorghum syrup and some brown rice syrup, and thought it was about the best GF brew I've had. A couple people I shared it with liked it, and one wanted to buy what I had left. So, if you don't want to go the all grain route, might be an option.

I have 3 lbs. of sorghum syrup. How much brown rice syrup did you use in proportion? Also, she loves dark beer, so maybe if I add D-180 candy and steep some chocolate roast millet it might turn out OK. What do you think?
 
I have 3 lbs. of sorghum syrup. How much brown rice syrup did you use in proportion? Also, she loves dark beer, so maybe if I add D-180 candy and steep some chocolate roast millet it might turn out OK. What do you think?
I used 7 lbs of the sorghum syrup, and 2 lbs of brown rice syrup. I ended up with only about 4 gallons of wort when I pitched the yeast, so the starting gravity was 1.075. I think 1.07 would have been better. So, maybe shoot for less than a 5 gallon batch with what you have on hand, along with 1 lb of brown rice syrup, adjust the OG to what sounds good to you. I also steeped some GF oats, but I didn't really know what I was doing, so I have no idea if that was a good idea or a bad idea. What I did like about the beer was that it just had good mouth feel; nice full body. Possible it was the oats, but I'd have to brew without them to know.

I think adjunct grains would be good to use. If I don't have success with all grain, I'll go back to extract, and start using the various GF grains that I did not know were available at the time. Can't speak to candy sugar, but I try to avoid it because I just haven't felt a need for it; personal preference is all.

One other thing: I had a really slow, slow ferment despite starter. Next time I would use a yeast nutrient, and I would make sure my started was more like the wort so that the yeast doesn't get pitched into an brand new environment. It's possible that was a sort of shock to it, and maybe that helps explain the slow ferment.

I think you could make GF beer that your wife will be very happy with. Good luck!
 
I used 7 lbs of the sorghum syrup, and 2 lbs of brown rice syrup. I ended up with only about 4 gallons of wort when I pitched the yeast, so the starting gravity was 1.075. I think 1.07 would have been better. So, maybe shoot for less than a 5 gallon batch with what you have on hand, along with 1 lb of brown rice syrup, adjust the OG to what sounds good to you. I also steeped some GF oats, but I didn't really know what I was doing, so I have no idea if that was a good idea or a bad idea. What I did like about the beer was that it just had good mouth feel; nice full body. Possible it was the oats, but I'd have to brew without them to know.

I think adjunct grains would be good to use. If I don't have success with all grain, I'll go back to extract, and start using the various GF grains that I did not know were available at the time. Can't speak to candy sugar, but I try to avoid it because I just haven't felt a need for it; personal preference is all.

One other thing: I had a really slow, slow ferment despite starter. Next time I would use a yeast nutrient, and I would make sure my started was more like the wort so that the yeast doesn't get pitched into an brand new environment. It's possible that was a sort of shock to it, and maybe that helps explain the slow ferment.

I think you could make GF beer that your wife will be very happy with. Good luck!

I think your right on the mouth feel being due to the oats. I should incorporate that into the mix as well. As for the D-180 candy, I've never used it, but apparently it adds nicely to the flavor profile of dark beers. I'm going to shoot for a stout of some sort for her.

And I don't want to just shoot for a beer she's happy with, I want to brew something I'm happy with as well.

Thank you for your advice. I will post what I do in a separate thread. And starting out with an extract in the GF arena is probably the right gradient for me. :mug:
 
I think you can make a GF beer that you'll both be happy with, although I subscribe to the notion that different grain equals different taste. But, I just tried beer at Ghostfish Brewing, an all GF brewery, and I really would not have known it was GF. If someone had told me that, I might think, "Oh, yeah, I can see that", but otherwise no. The proof will be what happens if they start making really big, bold brews like Imperials, or barleywines, where the malt is more on display. Lately I've come around to the idea that, "Duh, it doesn't have to mimic conventional beer, it just has to taste as good and make me feel like it's a beer as opposed to something else".
 
Chris, what mash schedule did you use? My wife is very gluten intolerant. She can't even have an Obsession without a mild reaction. So, I've been reading how to do a millet all-grain. (She doesn't like the sorghum beers she's tried.) I've only done 2-3 all-grain batches of regular brew, so I'm a little new to all-grain, and gluten-free all-grain seems to be a whole new skill set.

There are some other posts on here recently that discuss single infusion, which may be the way to go with large batches or when mashing with a more traditional mash tun setup. I have been using a step mash with a parallel cereal mash because I use buckwheat. The procedure description looks complicated but it is really pretty simple, see attached schematic.

Detail of process I used:

Crush millet grain with a 0.010 inch gap and the buckwheat with a 0.045 inch gap.

Treat 10 gallons of water for the mash:
- 4.3 gallons – strike water for main mash
- 1.25 gallons – strike water for cereal grain mash
- 2 gallons – ice bath
- 1 gallon – small pot to boil for decant charge water
- remainder hold in a container in case needed to add water for some reason or for sparge water

Dough in 11.5 lb millet with 17.25 quarts of ~110F strike water in a kettle that can be heated (no bag). [1.5 quarts/lb]
This begins the first 25 min rest of the millet mash.

While the millet mash is in its first rest I begin the cereal mash. Dough in the 2.5 lb of buckwheat corn into 5 quarts ~163F water [2 quarts/lb]. Hold for 15 to 25 minutes. Then boil for 10 minutes stirring constantly.

When the first 25 min rest of the millet mash is over, heat the millet mash to 130F stirring constantly while heating, and then hold for 25 minutes.

When the second rest on the millet mash is complete stir in 4 quarts of boiling water. This is just to add some extra water for collecting enzyme rich mash water and to add some heat. Let the mash settle for a few minutes and then scoop off 4 quarts of water from the top and put in a sealed container like a water jug. This is the enzyme rich mash water that will be added back later. Put the decanted mash water container into the ice bath.

Combine the millet mash with the cereal mash. The mash should be about 155F. Add hot water or cold water as needed to get between 150F and 155F. Hold for 20 min.

Heat the mash to between 170 and 180 for 5 minutes.

Add clear chilled water to the mash first to bring the temperature down below 160F.
Then transfer the mash into the mash cooler lined with the voile bag.

Note: I use two 5 gallon coolers with voile bags so that I can easily lift the grain bags for draining.

Then add the chilled mash water, which should bring the mash down below 140F.
Add more chilled water or hot water as required to start the rest with the mash between 135 and 140F.

Add Diatase Enzyme to the mash. This is probably optional but I think it helps with the conversion.

Hold the final rest for 90 minutes.
At final rest there should be about 1.9 quarts per pound of grain or just over 6.5 gallons of water with the 14 lb of grain.

Heat 1 to 1.5 gallon of sparge water to 170F in boil kettle (this can be the treated mash water or mash water with some distilled water so the sparge water has less mineral content)
Pull grain bag and let it drain some (first runnings).
Teabag sparge the grain bag in the preheated sparge water in the boil kettle.
Pull the grain bag and combine total wart in boil kettle.

It helps to have a boil kettle with volume markings or a calibrated stick to determine the volume of wart collected. Take a gravity reading.
ppg = (gravity points of wart collected)*(gallons of wart collected)/(pounds of grain)

For example with the 14 lb of grain and 7 gallons of 1.047 gravity wart collected I calculated ppg = 47*7/14 = 23.5

The batch plan and boil off is adjusted to hit target OG.

Schematic:

Slide2.jpg
 
Thanks for taking the time to write up such a detailed set of instructions on how to do a multi-step mash with GF grains. I'm confident I can follow these and do a good job of it. This is by far the most clear explanation of how to do it I've seen anywhere on the internet. I do understand there are some of your personal tweaks in there, so please do let us know how this batch comes out. It sounds pretty yummy though, so I'm expecting a good report! The cascade is going to make this delicious! I'm expecting something like a good PAC NW style ale from this recipe. :mug:
 
Yes, seems the price went up 40% !!!
The Munich does sound intriguing. I did not know Munich was considered a base malt. I think I will pick some up but have to decide how much to get.

Indeed, I ordered a few 5 lb bags of Grouse Pale from GFHB for around $9.25 each back in Jan. Now I see its up to $13.99/5 lb. What the... that's going to sting a bit next time I order :(
 
Yes, it appears the price for pale malt went up from about $2/lb to $2.80/lb and the shipping for me went from $1.25/lb to about $2/lb. That is more than $1.50/lb increase in price for me!

Will have to look at relying more on CMC for my grain in the future.
 
I am quite happy using unmalted millet with added enzymes, and I will not pay $5/ lb for base malt(after shipping).

One of my best pale ales was made from "base malt" consisting of un malted millet and buckwheat, with specialty malts from Eckert.
 
I am quite happy using unmalted millet with added enzymes, and I will not pay $5/ lb for base malt(after shipping).

One of my best pale ales was made from "base malt" consisting of un malted millet and buckwheat, with specialty malts from Eckert.

Interesting. I've seen Bob's Red Mill Millet in 16 or 20oz bags (I even eat it for breakfast on occasion (with nuts and honey or maple syrup its pretty tasty). Can't remember the cost however. I this what you're basically using? If not can you divulge your source? :)
 
I order 25lb bags of millet on Amazon.
the brand is Great River, its about $2 / lb and the shipping is free.

I have also seen the bobs red mill millet go at a reasonable price, I buy some of that ocasonally also.

I get the buckwheat from my local grocery store.
 
Just transferred this batch to the keg and it finished at 1.006 !!! Never had anything finish that low even with Belle Saison.
This is only my first AG batch, but I guess I am seeing over attenuation like Igliashon discussed in this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/dialing-millet-mash-467399/

The green uncarbonated beer tasted like it is going to be really good but time and carbonation will tell!
 
Just transferred this batch to the keg and it finished at 1.006 !!! Never had anything finish that low even with Belle Saison.
This is only my first AG batch, but I guess I am seeing over attenuation like Igliashon discussed in this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/dialing-millet-mash-467399/

The green uncarbonated beer tasted like it is going to be really good but time and carbonation will tell!

Awesome! Please keep us informed as this brew progresses. I'm very interested. 😃
 
Yes, it appears the price for pale malt went up from about $2/lb to $2.80/lb and the shipping for me went from $1.25/lb to about $2/lb. That is more than $1.50/lb increase in price for me!

Will have to look at relying more on CMC for my grain in the future.

I'm sad to say that CMC (via boulder fermentation supply) is higher. Something like $5 a pound!

http://www.boulderfermentationsupply.com/coloradomaltedgf.html

Looks like shipping is a bit cheaper "$15.00 flat-rate per order. US addresses only." Consider GFHB with Grouse is high on shipping costs it might equal out on large orders but I'm still learning how to mash and I'm only ordering a batch at a time (15-20lbs).

I did a full 5 gal AG/GF batch this weekend and I'm out of base pale malts too.
 
Thanks for the detailed recipe and the progress reports! My wife and most of her family have gluten issues ranging from full-on Celiacs to gluten intolerances, so I am looking to find a good gluten free recipe or two. My BIL doesn't like the sorghum GF brews that are commercially available, so I am hoping to find some millet or buckwheat or rice recipes that I can make. If I can brew something tasty, I'll be able to parlay that into no end of brother-in-law favors.

I'm still too new at this to raise my degree of difficulty that high yet, but this looks like a recipe that is in my future. Thanks!
 
Tapped the keg today and noticed that it was only partially carbonated. Exchanged CO2 tanks after filling and purging the keg and left the valve off. This batch partially carbonated because it was on a manifold with a fully carbonated keg!

Still drank a pint side by side with a pale ale from a partial mash with sorghum syrup. Now i have an idea of what millet brings to the table. I like it and will be making more all grain batches! I can't wait to taste it after it conditions another week or two.

I am excited because my first impression is that i will be able to try different things without having to plan around sorghum. My 10 gallon batches will still have some sorghum because i cannot handle that much grain.
 
Chris: That's great news. Glad your first all grain turned out well. Based on your experience, today I contacted Colorado malting. I had gotten a quote for pale millet from them in 2013: $1.98 / lb. now they are selling through a brew shop and wow! Price jump to around $2.60/lb Crystal is $5 /lb. wow. That's gonna be expensive. Do you prefer grouse or Colorado? Do you buy in bulk? Can you give me some advice on vendors? Ordering tips? Thx. BTW I'm an experienced all grain brewer.
 
I contacted Grouse and expressed my concern that these prices were not sustainable. For me, the shipping from the Pacific north west to Florida is a killer. I am going to approach my LHBS and see if they will start carrying GF grain. Personally, I don't care if it is CMC or Grouse. My guess is that my LHBS will not want to invest and I will have to buy the first shipment so that they will not have to take the risk before they establish if it will move. If it works, there will at least be a distributor in the southeast. I would like to see some more competition!

My purchases have ranged from 10 to 40 pounds. I have never bothered to figure out the most cost effective packaging size. I know $/lb is higher for 10 lb than for 20 lb. I even posted once on this forum to see if others wanted to share a shipment but got no takers. I thought that if 5 or 10 of us pooled our order we could get a pallet shipped to a central location and all go split it up.
 
I contacted Grouse and expressed my concern that these prices were not sustainable. For me, the shipping from the Pacific north west to Florida is a killer. I am going to approach my LHBS and see if they will start carrying GF grain. Personally, I don't care if it is CMC or Grouse. My guess is that my LHBS will not want to invest and I will have to buy the first shipment so that they will not have to take the risk before they establish if it will move. If it works, there will at least be a distributor in the southeast. I would like to see some more competition!

My purchases have ranged from 10 to 40 pounds. I have never bothered to figure out the most cost effective packaging size. I know $/lb is higher for 10 lb than for 20 lb. I even posted once on this forum to see if others wanted to share a shipment but got no takers. I thought that if 5 or 10 of us pooled our order we could get a pallet shipped to a central location and all go split it up.

I am with you on the the prices. I contacted my local feed supply place and found they have 25 lb. bags of white proso millet for $12.50. I suspect it is for bird feed. But, I plan on buying some and seeing what happens. I have a Ronco rotisserie oven that I'm planning on using to roast the millet in. I just need to come up with a drum for it.
 
I'm guessing and again only a quess is that Grouse and CMC are gearing towards meeting demand of the startup GF breweries and that the homebrewing market is not a major concern (I am sure they DO care however). I know publicly they'd dispute this but when you are shipping pallets of malted millet to Seattle and Portland, etc and then 5 lb bags here and there which market do you think is sustaining their malting business in the long term? We're now buying from distributors that need a little bit of a markup to also survive (and shipping has become really expensive). I ship beer out east for swapsies for some VT ipas I crave and its jumped in the last year or so.

Anyway, not sure where I'm going with this other than I (think) understand the market pressure can increase prices and don't feel any anger about it but I am *sad* its becoming a bit unaffordable to brew all grain with Grouse or CMC products.

I am very interested in the use of unmalted millet however! I'm going to be using enzymes anyway so its definitely an option for me. I guess I could learn to roast millet if it saves me a *lot* of money.
 
I expressed to Grouse that I am glad they are doing well and hope that they continue to thrive and grow but that we need to find ways to get GF grain prices at least closer to barley. They agreed and said they are willing to work with other distributors. I don't have much confidence in my LHBS but will try anyway.
 
Totally agree. Supply and demand are at work here as well as economies of scale. I think there is a healthy emerging market for GF malted grains as well as extracts (other than sorghum.) Grouse and Colorado better be on their game or they could be passed by Briess (or some other player) in a blink of the eye.
 
Kato and Chris,
The Millet that the grain supplier sells for birds,if its for expensive birds, needs to be sprout-able. I use this in Canada from my feed place in London Ontario. 1-50Lbs bag is $25 last I looked. You will have to "process" it...meaning remove the nasty bug parts and other grain bits you don't want and wash it, as its most likely been in a silo somewhere. But this works very well and I save big $ doing it this way...PSST.. don't tell the malting companies, or we might be bared from using this type. :) But you will have to malt it or use lots of enyzme to convert it and there goes the saving part.
 
Kato and Chris,

The Millet that the grain supplier sells for birds,if its for expensive birds, needs to be sprout-able. I use this in Canada from my feed place in London Ontario. 1-50Lbs bag is $25 last I looked. You will have to "process" it...meaning remove the nasty bug parts and other grain bits you don't want and wash it, as its most likely been in a silo somewhere. But this works very well and I save big $ doing it this way...PSST.. don't tell the malting companies, or we might be bared from using this type. :) But you will have to malt it or use lots of enyzme to convert it and there goes the saving part.


I think I could buy a s*** ton of enzymes for the cost difference between 50 lbs at the feed store and 50 lbs from Colorado Malting. I think I can be persuaded to clean, malt, and roast some millet to save around $200. Besides it will increase my skill set.
 
So i got off my butt and brewed this last Monday, with some changes due to using what I had, ie, I used all pale millet and only cascade hops and I had to add some (.5lb) rme to make a decent fg number 1.045.

Totally need to refine my methods as my kit doesnt use igloo mt's, but I managed to make it go pretty decent, wort tasted awesome and the fermentation so far has been aggressive.

I'll test at 1 week to see where I'm at with it being done.

This was a fun experience and I'm looking forward to the next batch..
 
Chris: the price is high for the grains, and shipping is a killer. I agree with subsequent posts that 1)CMC and Grouse can't really be concerned about the home brew market; 2) Some bigger maltster might be in the future. Also, I'd be happy to go in with anybody on a bulk buy but geography and shipping conspire against us. I can say this. alone, I'm not making an order for GF malts right now. I'm really enjoying seeing your results. I wish I could contribute more. So, thank you for sharing.
 
Thanks for the kind words hipturn. Geography is definitely difficult as we are spread out and only a few happen to live close a maltster. Ask around when you are in need of grain again.
 
I'll test at 1 week to see where I'm at with it being done.

So I bleed off some wort from the fermenter and tested it, as soon as I brought the refractometer to my eye I knew something was off about it.

it showed 1.010 as the FG, but smelled infected, tasted even worse.

narf.. so much waste.

I'm going to go over all my equipment and see what could have cause it. I'm pretty good a cleaning and sanitizing everything.
 
So I bleed off some wort from the fermenter and tested it, as soon as I brought the refractometer to my eye I knew something was off about it.

it showed 1.010 as the FG, but smelled infected, tasted even worse.

narf.. so much waste.

I'm going to go over all my equipment and see what could have cause it. I'm pretty good a cleaning and sanitizing everything.


Millet based sour, perhaps? :)
 
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