Hot water releasing chemicals in plastic?

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fsciuto2

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First off, just registered first time poster, thanks for having me.

My brew partner and I are switching to all-grain this weekend. Our first task is to construct the mash/lauter tun. I have about 5 or 6 plastic picnic coolers around the house and wanted to use one of those along with making a copper manifold. I have seen hundreds all over the web built like this.

My brew partner has advised against this and says we should buy a stainless steel cooler or use styrofoam. His reason: "when plastic is heated it releases chemicals (carcinogens?) into the atmosphere"... this is the same guy that would pull a fire alarm if someone microwaved with Saran wrap!!!

Are we being paranoid? Is the temperature of the strike water (160-165F) hot enough to actually release harmful chemicals from the plastic. With the ubiquity of the plastic cooler solution on the web, I can't imagine every person overlooking this.

Thanks,
Frank

p.s. I have searched everywhere for this. Haven't come across anything.
 
How would stryro be better?
Does he fear the pizza delivery warmers?


We've got some nice anti- bleach and aluminum zealots here. This is a new one though.

Welcome BTW.
 
Plastic coolers are lined with polypropylene, which is approved by the FDA for food prep. This is the same plastic used in plastic cooking utensils.
 
I've had enough. There are too many chemophobics yapping about chemicals released from PVC that will end civilization as we know it. I challenge anyone here to produce a refereed academic journal, or even a news report that cites such an article about carcinogens, or toxic chemicals leached from food grade PVC. By this I mean rigid PVC used in water pipes and not plasticized PVC used in flexible articles like baby toys. The latter is often plasticized with dialkyl phthalates, like dioctyl phthalate. These are certainly controversial, and reasonable toxicologists will still disagree on whether they are hormone disruptors or not. But I do not believe there is any issue with rigid PVC and leachates.

The reason not to use rigid PVC in hot water applications is that it softens and distorts, not that it leaches anything. CPVC is used in hot water applications because it has higher heat resistance and doesn't soften as readily as PVC. Both PVC and CPVC are cleared for use in potable water and indirect food contact applications, so don't worry about using them in homebrewing.

Can somone take me up on my challenge?
 
I stand corrected, it's only PVC that has been treated with softeners that leaches carcinogens. Rigid PVC is fine.
 
Thanks guys!!

I figured we would be OK. Now I feel bad for criticizing my buddy. Oh well, he's just paranoid.
 
kvh,

The document you cite is a life cycle analysis of various building materials, including PVC pipe used for drain-waste-vent piping. I can not find any reference to increased risk of cancer or any other disease endpoint due to use by the homeowner. They do cite an increased risk of cancer to people living near PVC manufacturing facilities, and to those who burn the pipe in their backyards, but no mention of risk due to use.

So, I am unrepentant in my position that there is no accepted human health risk due to the use of PVC in potable water or indirect food contact uses.

Thanks for the reference, by the way.
 
I think styrofoam would be the worst option.

Ever drink a hot cup of coffee out of a styrofoam cup. Tastes like styrofoam, doesn't it. And its made of phynol rings which are just one hydrogen short of being a benzene ring.
 
feedthebear said:
I think styrofoam would be the worst option.

Ever drink a hot cup of coffee out of a styrofoam cup. Tastes like styrofoam, doesn't it. And its made of phynol rings which are just one hydrogen short of being a benzene ring.
And O2 is one O short of being ozone, but we breath O2 every day. NaCl is one Sodium too much from being chlorine gas, and again. Ethanol is one carbon short of being propanol, but we can consumer ethanol in moderation, why not propanol or any other alcohol?
 
AiredAle said:
I've had enough. There are too many chemophobics yapping about chemicals released from PVC that will end civilization as we know it. I challenge anyone here to produce a refereed academic journal, or even a news report that cites such an article about carcinogens, or toxic chemicals leached from food grade PVC. By this I mean rigid PVC used in water pipes and not plasticized PVC used in flexible articles like baby toys. The latter is often plasticized with dialkyl phthalates, like dioctyl phthalate. These are certainly controversial, and reasonable toxicologists will still disagree on whether they are hormone disruptors or not. But I do not believe there is any issue with rigid PVC and leachates.

The reason not to use rigid PVC in hot water applications is that it softens and distorts, not that it leaches anything. CPVC is used in hot water applications because it has higher heat resistance and doesn't soften as readily as PVC. Both PVC and CPVC are cleared for use in potable water and indirect food contact applications, so don't worry about using them in homebrewing.

Can somone take me up on my challenge?
I did a google scholar search on it, and nothing much came up on the subject except during scenarios that the typical homeowner will never see. Things like certain medicines with solutions of various things like salt and dextrose in a IV bag made of a certain type of pvc would release amounts of diethylhexyl phthalate. And now i can't find the article. Doesn't matter your right, it doesn't harm people.
 
Good thread -- I think it is very healthy to challenge our beliefs.

AiredAle: what about lead compounds that are added to rigid PVC products? I have read that they are used as heat stabilizers, and don't leach out under normal use. But if one were boiling their rigid PVC (or getting to high temps like in a mash), is there a concern about lead leaching out? I did a quick search on this but didn't have time to explore it in depth. Perhaps you know? I would be interested to find out if you are anyone else has some experience (otherwise, I will research it myself later). Thanks.
 
FlyGuy,

I'll take a look when I get a chance. I did talk to some guys today in a plastics industry trade group meeting, one of whom is a food contact lawyer, and they think that no lead compounds are used in food grade or potable water contact rigid PVC, but no one could remember for certain. Our best guess is that it's not an issue. I'll look more deeply when I get back home.

Regards,

AiredAle
 
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