Clone Beer Founder's Breakfast Stout Clone

sbeebe said:

When you add your coffee grounds at flame out, do you put them in a bag or just toss them in?

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I just tossed mine in and made sure I poured everything (trub, hops, coffee, all of it) into the fermenter once I had the wort chilled.

JadeMonkeyStang said:

I just tossed mine in and made sure I poured everything (trub, hops, coffee, all of it) into the fermenter once I had the wort chilled.

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I also just tossed them in, they settle out quick.

Ok great! That makes me feel better. I was worried that leaving the grounds in would make it to bitter.

I'm looking at this recipe as it looks delicious and I'm wanting to try making a stout. I haven't had the pleasure of trying a founders breakfast stout yet, but I love stouts in general and it does sound good!

One thing that seems to be in question (or maybe not) is the IBUs, being either 30 or 60. I was playing with the numbers, and it seems like tinseth IBU calculation gives around 30 or so, and rager gives around 60 or so (based on BYO's clone recipe). Is this a coincidence? Or is it possible that both 30 and 60 are correct depending on the formula used, and perhaps even founder's website was at one point showing the tinseth calculated IBU (30) and is now showing the rager calculated IBU (60). I guess the website should show/provide the actual measured IBU and not calculated, but do we know this for sure either way? Is this a possibility for where some confusion is coming from? Or maybe my app that is calculating IBUs with tinseth and rager is really off and I'm way off base here, that's possible too

I'd like to also ask Dubbel why the recipe is pretty much identical to the BYO recipe except for using 16lb 2 row vs BYO using 13.2lb? What was your efficiency? It looks like if I use 16 lb as in Dubbel's exact recipe, with 70% efficiency it will come in closer to 1.100 OG, which sounds way too high?

So I racked to my secondary last week. Upon first tasting, it tasted a little bitter. So I added a 1/2 lb of lactose to my secondary. If anything it should make it a little creamier. I'm looking to bottle this weekend!

I cracked one of my last few bombers of this open on the day after Thanksgiving at exactly a year after brew day. I must say it's aged nicely.The coffee has mellowed quite a bit but it's still there. My next batch I'm going to at least partially age on oak as I love that toasted coconut flavor in a big stout.

Mine has been in bottle for one week today! I think I'm going to crack one tonight just to see how it is. Next batch I'm going to split it in half and oak/bourbon one half up.

FWIW, my Breakfast Stout didn't score that well in a recent competition @ 28, by far my worst scoring beer in the comp. No real flaws or typical off-flavors were mentioned but there wasn't enough chocolate and the coffee was too much like coffee-grounds. I was able to talk to one of the guys who judged it and this guy is very experienced and knows his stuff.

I did mine a little different than the OP recipe, I added 2 oz coarse ground coffee a couple minutes after flameout (IC already flowing) and then 3 oz whole-bean coffee in a secondary. Not sure which one caused the 'coffee-ground' flavor/aroma. I did the chocolate very similar to the OP recipe (except used powder instead of the nibs). Just a little warning/FYI for those thinking of brewing it.

Just got my first batch in the bottles this morning. This stuff smells so great, it just has to taste good!

Spanish, I did the same thing. Grounds at flame out and whole beans for my secondary. BUT I also put lactose in my secondary to help cut the bitterness. How long did you let yours sit before putting it into the competition?

sbeebe said:

Spanish, I did the same thing. Grounds at flame out and whole beans for my secondary. BUT I also put lactose in my secondary to help cut the bitterness. How long did you let yours sit before putting it into the competition?

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I brewed it in mid/late August. 3 weeks primary, then 1 week secondary on the beans, then kegged and carbed it, then drank several quarts, then bottled it like 1 week before I submitted the bottles to the comp (which was 2 weeks before the judging). So it was a bit young by big beer standards but it's not strong or hot or anything but it did have a quite high FG (not because the yeast didn't finish, I always do a FFT and the yeast finished fine). I also used a little bit of lactose but didn't use as much bittering hops (I shot for the 30 IBU number).

mb2696 said:

FWIW, I emailed Founders to ask if the coffee is added to the kettle or brewed then added and got this response:

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That's awesome... I love writing to brewers and actually getting responses... Crannog brewery in BC was awesome about replying to me when I wanted to mash (heh) potatoes for an Irish Red.

HalfPint said:

Holy hell I can't believe I haven't seen this recipe before! Definitely my next brew!

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Just had some of the real stuff recently and am getting the itch...

pj_rage said:

I'd like to also ask Dubbel why the recipe is pretty much identical to the BYO recipe except for using 16lb 2 row vs BYO using 13.2lb? What was your efficiency? It looks like if I use 16 lb as in Dubbel's exact recipe, with 70% efficiency it will come in closer to 1.100 OG, which sounds way too high?

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At the time, my efficiency was bad... Somewhere in the 60-65% range... So I upped the base to get to the 8.3%. And now, years later, I know that reporting your efficiency on recipes is important.

After three weeks in the bottle, cracked a tube to sample....this is one great brew! Had the actual FBS on draught less than a month ago, and as far as I can tell, this is AT LEAST as good.

Man this is near the top of my short list of next-to-brew. Got a chance to try the original, and it is just amazing. I think I'm gonna roast my own coffee for it, too.

If you read the thread, it nearly fills a 10 gal. MLT. The mash came to within 1.5" of the top of my Rubbermaid conversion. But it worked, and the stout is oh, so good.

rico567 said:

If you read the thread, it nearly fills a 10 gal. MLT. The mash came to within 1.5" of the top of my Rubbermaid conversion. But it worked, and the stout is oh, so good.

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How many lbs of grain did you use? I plan on drastically reducing the amount the OP used as my efficiency is signficantly better. I'm targeting his OG, but with a lot closer to 15# of grain or so instead.

This actually brings about another point -- if I'm scaling this recipe for efficiency, should I leave every thing the same and only reduce the 2 row base? The OP used 16#, BYO called 13.2#, both with the same specialty grains and everything else the same, but based on my efficiency, I'm calculating only needing around 11# 2 row to hit 1.086 OG. I've heard that you should keep specialty grain amounts fixed and reduce only the base when adjusting for efficiency -- is this an OK strategy even when I'm talking about removing 15-30% base grains? I imagine at some point you need to also consider slightly reducing the specialty grains too, I just don't know what that point is.

I used exactly the grain bill specified in the recipe. My Brix numbers were right on the money, too.....so maybe that means I'm getting about the same efficiencies as the originator of the clone. My main goal in brewing is just to get a beer I like, so apart from looking to hit the correct numbers and get the OG I'm supposed to, or close to it, I'm not really that concerned with increasing my efficiency.

Reviving this thread as I'm planning on brewing this next weekend. Has anyone else tasted their batches since?

I'm curious why the OP wanted a gravity of 1.086 when the BYO recipe has 1.078. BYO recipe also calls for the 2nd addition of beans to secondary as opposed to cold press, as well as coffee and chocolate at boil-out. Any comparisons on these methods?

I'm also wondering if it's better to use Bittersweet with 70% Cacao or just dark 100% Cacao.

arover said:

Reviving this thread as I'm planning on brewing this next weekend. Has anyone else tasted their batches since?

I'm curious why the OP wanted a gravity of 1.086 when the BYO recipe has 1.078. BYO recipe also calls for the 2nd addition of beans to secondary as opposed to cold press, as well as coffee and chocolate at boil-out. Any comparisons on these methods?

I'm also wondering if it's better to use Bittersweet with 70% Cacao or just dark 100% Cacao.

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Cold press version lets you add coffe to taste at bottling. Beans in the secondary is basically like cold press but you are cold pressing in the secondary and tasting daily to see if the flavors are right. Coffee at the end of boil is basically liek brewing coffee and you may end up with some harsh notes and oils.

Chocolate at boil isn't a bad idea to get the stuff melting. I also added some cocoa nibs (in the original recipe) in secondary with about a week or two left to get some extra fresh chocolate goodness.

I have two empty kegs. I think I may do this one again and then a lighter beer.

And for what it is worth, and I know every judge and competition is different, but this beer won me a medal in the specialty beer category at a local competiton.

Plan on brewing this (extract version) either this weekend or next. I'll be making small changes because I aim for this to be a slightly higher ABV, I guess closer to the Kentucky Breakfast Stout, as well as slightly higher IBU's.

I'll have a 5.5 gal boil and then probably a ~4.8 gallon batch

Estimated Original Gravity: 1.093 SG
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.023 SG
Estimated Color: 50 SRM
Bitterness: 38.0 IBU
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 9.0%+


7.00 lb Light Dry Extract 22.64 %
1.50 lb Oats, Flaked
0.75 lb Chocolate Malt
0.50 lb Roasted Barley
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt
0.50 lb De-Bittered Black Malt
1.00 lb Home made Candi Sugar Syrup
1.00 lb Corn Sugar (Dextrose).... will add during primary and vary depending on what my OG was
0.50 lb Malto-dextrin
0.50 oz Nugget [12.20 %] (60 min) Hops
0.50 oz Nugget [12.20 %] (30 min) Hops
0.50 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (10 min) Hops
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1 to 2 Pkgs S-04

I will add coffee by the directions in this thread and after this I will add vanilla beans and cocoa powder by the directions in this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f68/dc-raspberry-stout-89887/

There will be a small addition in alcohol because of the vodka addition to the vanilla and cocoa so I estimate if I do this right the ABV would be ~9.5% which would be about where I want it.

Any thoughts on this recipe?

EDIT: Double posted by accident

Godfather, there was an active thread a while back with the recipe for KBS posted in Zymurgy by one of the head brewers(?) from Founders. You may want to look at it if that's what you're looking for more of.

I'm brewing this recipe up tomorrow...very excited

arover said:

Godfather, there was an active thread a while back with the recipe for KBS posted in Zymurgy by one of the head brewers(?) from Founders. You may want to look at it if that's what you're looking for more of.

I'm brewing this recipe up tomorrow...very excited

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Thanks for pointing out the thread. The recipe there was pretty similar as far as grains and OG which bodes well. I might add bourbon chips to the secondary, but I might not if I feel it could override some of the other flavors (vanilla, chocolate, etc).

Good luck on brewing it... did you make any alterations to the recipe or are you just following pretty much as is?

The grain bill looks fine to me--I'm raising the originally posted bittering addition to reach roughly 50-55 IBU as calculated by Beersmith and then letting the coffee and nibs account for some extra bitterness to reach ~60. I'm also doing the late additions a little closer to flame-out as to not completely boil off all the volatile compounds. Other then that, I'm sticking to the clone recipe- Got some nice high quality sumatra and kona beans, as well as some fair-trade organic nibs and organic bittersweet baker's chocolate ready to go

If you're looking to mimic the KBS more I'd definitely add some wood chips soaked in bourbon (then toss the whole thing in) but let the chips soak no more than a week depending on the amount. You might even want to consider oak cubes (though in the secondary for much longer) if you want to add some more complexity to the flavor.

I realized since I'll be making a vanilla extraction that instead of using vodka, I should use bourbon which should extract just as good but also leave a bourbon flavor in the beer.

I can attest to the fact that this recipe is outstanding! I share my stuff with the same people generally. Some love stouts, some hate dark beers. They all said this one was fantastic, the best one i made. I give thanks to Dubbeldach for the post. Stellar beer!
Brewed 5.5 gallons back in early October. OG=1.075, FG=1.022 with slight mods. I also wanted to lower alcohol just a little. Only difference in how i did it was:

12lbs 2-row
2.2 lbs flaked oats (yeah, i said 2+ lbs!)
14 oz. pale chocolate
12 oz. roasted barley
8 oz. carafa III
6 oz. caramel 120L
1 oz Chinook (13%) 60 min
1 oz Willemette (5.5%) 15 min
.5 oz Willemette (5.5%) 0 min
WY 1056



kettle= 2oz coffee beans flameout, 2.5 oz. cocoa powder 15 minutes, 1.5 oz cocoa nibs 5 minutes.
secondary= 1.5 oz. cocoa beans, 2 oz. cracked coffee beans
bottling= 2.5 oz. cold steeped kona coffee and 1+ oz chocolate extract

I used chocolate extract at bottling because the coffee flavor seemed too strong, overpowering the chocolate.... but this changed with aging.

3 weeks primary @ 65*, 4 weeks secondary @ 65*, at least 4 weeks bottle conditioned. The longer the better.

The coffee really mellowed after it carb'd, and continues to do so the longer it sits. I would love to give this a 3+ month bottle condition but there's no way it's gonna last that long (I may have to make another batch and forget about it for awhile). By the way carbonation was 2.3 volumes. No one seems to ever give this little bit of info. The alcohol is hidden well, but its warmth is present. The mouthfeel is awesome, thick like motor oil. When drinking this, let it warm up just a bit (50*). All the flavors start coming out.

When i re-do this I may try to bring the chocolate a little more foward so it balances a little better with the coffee by either leave out coffee grounds at flameout, or just crack an ounce of them and throw in. Cocoa nibs are awesome, but they can be messy.

I bottled this in belgian bottles and corked them while siphoning off a gallon on the side and throwing medium toasted oak cubes soaked in an ounce of maker's mark and let them sit for a month before bottling. Smelled fan-frickin-tastic.

Just curious, has anyone tried adding a dash of bourbon after pouring a glass of this stuff to see how it complements it?

i have added a splash of bourbon to the glass. just be careful a little too much and the bourbon can overtake the beer. a splash for a 12. oz glass/ bottle is usually enough. If you want more i would incrementally add bourbon at about a teaspoon at a time to taste. BTW- it does add a different with the bourbon- tastes awesome, particularly on a cold night and you let the stout warm up a bit.

Thx for the input- I'll be kegging this in about 2 weeks and I was contemplating splitting a batch and adding bourbon soaked oak chips or kegging the whole thing and letting it age then perhaps splitting it with some bourbon added (seeing as this recipe is similar to the Kentucky Breakfast Stout clone) but the thing is *gasp* I'm not a big fan of whiskey so I'm curious how well it complements it.

i split a gallon off the main batch and put 1.5 oz. oak cubes (med toast) soaked in 1 to 1.5 oz. bourbon in the gallon for 2+ weeks- just cracked open a bottle. Taste excellent. just slightly different than regular batch. hard to detect oak and bourbon notes which are competing with all the roasted grain and chocolate and coffee. Again excellent all around, slight different taste from regular batch. I like whiskey enough. In this stout it is really complimentary. as long as u don't overdue it

brewed this last sunday 4/3, as usual s-04 took off like gangbusters for the first few days....checked my gravity today and its 1.040...I'm hoping the s04 doesn't flocculate out too much to finish this thing in the next few weeks..was hoping it would finish in the 1.023 range....by the way it looked like crude oil when i started my runoff...
OG was 1.083
have it fermenting at 65 F

should I just wait it out; or attempt to warm it up a bit?




thanks

This all sounds right to me.....OG in the ballpark for my batch last Fall, same for ferm temp. (I also used S-04). And, as I recall, the FG was in the low 1.02X. You should be good; I'd wait it out.

OK,
We brewed 10 gal on Saturday, we plan to bourbon oak 5 gal and leave the other 5 alone... I brewed 5 gallons tonight. I am about to pitch my yeast, and DAMN, the wort tastes in-freakin-credible!!!! that sumatra brings out the other flavors. Right now it is sweet, and slightly hoppy. I think this is going to be a kick ass stout. I did change up a little. I used 3oz Semi Sweet bakers chocolate, and 2oz unsweetened bakers chocolate, and also I bumped the base malt to 17.5 lbs instead of 16lbs. I just chilled it and it is sitting at 68.5 degrees in the primary, and I am about to pitch. After it ferments for 2 weeks, I am going to rack it into (2) 2.5 gal carboys, and in one I am going to put lightly toasted oak chips that soaked for two weeks in Kentucky bourbon, and the other 2.5 gal I will either leave alone, "OR" soak only in oak chips, OR dry hop it with Mt. Hood, OR dry hop with Mt. Hood AND oak age it for the last two weeks. The wort taste phenomenal, the brew went perfectly, the chill came down to 68 in 25 minutes (maybe less) and I am staring at the fermenter now about to pitch the yeast, drinking a serpents stout. I LOVE BEER, I probably mentioned that at some point.. DAMN!! Thanks to everyone on this forum. I have learned loads, and even more "on the job training:. Just do it, screw it up a few times, and learn, then become awesome,,, that is the secret. Happy brewing to ALL and I will post back about this in six week. 2 Weeks in the primary, 2 weeks in the secondary, this will be bottled conditioned since it WILL enter a local contest but condition in the bottles for at least two weeks. I would like to pop the first one after it conditions in the bottles for 4 weeks, but we will see. this forum rocks, I finally feel like I am becoming something special, with all grain and doing some complex ****... Oh, don't think I am cocky, I am having a serpents stout at this moment, about to pitch the yeast.

Yes, I am a little excited, and buzzed from a serpent's stout, but probably more buzzed at the satisfaction of my/our creation... thanks for the recipe!

Again to reiterate, i made this early october- 3 weeks primary, 4 weeks secondary- was drinking it by Christmas/ New Year and it was awesome....then had some in February, and it was better. Then it was better in March. Cracked one this past weekend and it was the best one yet. This beer ages great. Save a bunch for when the Fall starts kicking into gear again, you'll be happy you did.

Has there been a concesus on how to add coffee to the brew? Should it be mashed with the rest of the grain?

randallr said:

Has there been a concesus on how to add coffee to the brew? Should it be mashed with the rest of the grain?

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Under no circumstances- I believe that would extract far too much bitterness. I threw in 2 oz. of freshly ground Papanicholas French Roast at flameout. Coffee notes in the finished beer are just right.

mhot55 said:

Again to reiterate, i made this early october- 3 weeks primary, 4 weeks secondary- was drinking it by Christmas/ New Year and it was awesome....then had some in February, and it was better. Then it was better in March. Cracked one this past weekend and it was the best one yet. This beer ages great. Save a bunch for when the Fall starts kicking into gear again, you'll be happy you did.

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I just sampled some from secondary....unfortunately there is no way this is gonna last till fall....just too damn good....i'll probably keep this beer in my regular lineup...so I guess i can bottle a few for storage

infection said:

brewed this last sunday 4/3, as usual s-04 took off like gangbusters for the first few days....checked my gravity today and its 1.040...I'm hoping the s04 doesn't flocculate out too much to finish this thing in the next few weeks..was hoping it would finish in the 1.023 range....by the way it looked like crude oil when i started my runoff...
OG was 1.083
have it fermenting at 65 F
should I just wait it out; or attempt to warm it up a bit?

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Update, this really did get stuck at 1.040, I think I overshot my mash temp and the grain bill was so big that once I got my temps under control the damage had already been done.
I made another starter with some Irish Ale yeast that I had and repitched, nothing happened after 12 hours so I decided to try some amalyse enzyme, used one teaspoon dissolved in some pre-boiled water, the ferment took off within 12 hours and is now pretty much finished at 1.022 after 3 weeks; this was my first attempt using amalyse enzyme and it looks like it did what it's supposed to do

Moved mine to the secondary a few nights ago. OG was also 1.083 and the final was 1.023 and was like motor oil. I am fairly new to all grain, so I was a little surprised at how much trub there was, but it looks like it will be awesome. I will be sure to let everyone know. My friend is going to bourbon oak a batch, that should be awesome!