Would you skip the starter for Wyeast 3711 Saison?

I am going to brew a Saison with Wyeast 3711 French Saison. Having used this yeast a couple times before, I know that it rips through wort until there is practically nothing left to chew on, and that it produces a relatively tame flavour profile (for a saison).

I am tempted to skip making a starter for this brew, since I am not worried about it under attenuating, and since I am not aiming for a 'clean' beer (saisons are not 'clean' beers, what with all the phenols....but are there still possible 'off flavours' to avoid with this yeast?). Also, I am not worried if this beer takes a bit longer to ferment than my beers typically do (almost always 4-6 days).

Anyone out there think I'd still be better off to make a starter? The yeast pack I will use was manufactured just a couple weeks ago, and my wort volume and O.G will be 4.25 gallons and 1.050. I'm not too worried about it, but am curious about the experiences of others who have used this yeast, and who usually make starters, but don't bother for this yeast.

Id still make a starter. Belgians are the most yeast driven large category of beer and saisons are the most yeast driven on the Belgians. So why skimp on the yeast pitch? Its like trying to make an IPA with barely any hops

The lag time will just likely get you a less than stellar yeast profile, possibly some off flavors. Its not really about whether it is healthy enough to finish attenuating. most yeasts will eventually finish given enough time and adequate temperature control

I would think you could get away with it on this batch, given the freshness of the yeast, lower OG and 4.25 gal batch size. You will probably get a more ester-y beer (more intense saison yeast flavors) as the yeast might be a bit stressed without a starter. I would still make a starter, however, and pitch what is needed and harvest the rest for another batch.

This yeast really is a beast. Recently got a saison of mine from 1.059 to 1.002 in under a week. Let the temps free rise during fermentation

As has been said, you could maybe get away with it. One thing you could do is just make a small starter but only let it run on the stir plate for 3-4 hours. Then you arent creating a ton of new cells, you are just getting them really vigurous and healthy, theyll have huge sterol stores for reproduction while they are starting out in the wort. You aren't getting a ton of cells so you can keep your pitch rate low but then they aren't extremely stressed by the reproduction phase.

I would though on the other hand create a large enough starter that allows me to (semi)accurately predict the population in the starter, pull off the top a certain portion of the starter and save that amount for future batches of beer and I can save myself money rather than buying new packets of yeast each time.

yeah saving yeast from starters is extremely convenient if you just re-use the vials or get some small jamsized mason jars to store it in. Ive got about 20 yeast strains in ym fridge and to date have only had to re-buy a yeast 2 or 3 times due to age

Hey guys, thanks for your replies.

The only reason I am tempted to skip the starter for this batch is because I am trying to squeeze in one last brew day before I am overseas for a month, and this brew needs to be as low maintenance as possible since much of my time until my trip has been spoken for. I chose Wyeast 3711 so that I wouldn't need to worry about temperature control once I am gone (late summer room temps have worked for me with this yeast in the past), and because I know that a saison won't suffer while it sits in primary for 6 weeks (unlike a hop-forward beer, for example).

I'll probably make a starter since I am paranoid about the beer sucking. Still, I have a feeling under pitching by a bit wouldn't be as risky for a saison as it would be for say, a really clean ale, or a lager.

I don't make a starter when I use WY3711. I want the additional esters that under-pitching could produce since saisons should have them anyway.

starters only take me a total of like 10min to do. I just leave it on the stovetop to cool overnight and pitch the next day sometimes

Be sure to rig a blowoff tube, just in case since you wont be there to monitor fermentation. And if you can, stick it in a place with stable temps. Like if the a/c is off at your place and it swings up and down that wont be good for the yeast

m00ps said:

Id still make a starter. Belgians are the most yeast driven large category of beer and saisons are the most yeast driven on the Belgians. So why skimp on the yeast pitch? Its like trying to make an IPA with barely any hops

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Wouldn't the argument be that pitching a lower cell count results in more esters, thus more yeast character?

EDIT: According to Brew like a Monk, some Belgian brewers pitch less or oxygenate to a certain level to increase or adjust their ester production

This is one yeast I would not worry about under pitching, it should still attenuate well, and could produce some interesting and even desireable flavors from stressing them out a bit at the start.

Pitching the "proper" amount of yeast just because an online calculator says so seems a tad bogus to me. These calculators are just estimates first of all and secondly they do not take into account the yeast strain and the desired profile from the yeast.

To make an equally irrelevant hop analogy, "would the west coast IPA be born if people added the proper amount of hops?"

You will probably make a fine beer. You can then make a comparison to your other saisons and see how it compares.

I don't love this yeast, but I do have some insight. After not loving the results of a saison I did with 3711 I purposely underpitched my next batch with it, a 1.050 saison, and all it gave me was lots of a generic peppery phenol. I would go with a starter, ensuring a proper pitch rate.

I dont buy into the whole "purposefully stress belgian yeasts for more esters." Ive never seen conclusive evidence that it does but what we do know for sure is that it stresses the yeast. Obviously, this is not good for the yeast and IME has just as much chance as causing issues with fusels or trouble bottle carbing as magically making the beer better tasting.

Ive done 60 or so Belgian beers and ive found that temperature is the #1 thing to coax whatever yeast character you want out of the strain you are using. Dont risk getting an inadequate fermentation by purposefulyl treating your yeast like crap

m00ps said:

I dont buy into the whole "purposefully stress belgian yeasts for more esters." Ive never seen conclusive evidence that it does but what we do know for sure is that it stresses the yeast. Obviously, this is not good for the yeast and IME has just as much chance as causing issues with fusels or trouble bottle carbing as magically making the beer better tasting.

Ive done 60 or so Belgian beers and ive found that temperature is the #1 thing to coax whatever yeast character you want out of the strain you are using. Dont risk getting an inadequate fermentation by purposefulyl treating your yeast like crap

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This^

Underpitching is fine so long as you know what you are pitching into the beer. I'll under pitch my estery/phenolic beers by *maybe* 10% at max, and I have a pretty good idea ofthe population I'm putting in the beer. I keep the temps high and they'll pump out the Belgian character for me just fine. Anything more than 10% underpitch starts to get into burnt rubber/sulfur/green apple territory.

http://byo.com/grains/item/1717-yeast-pitching-rates-advance-homebrewing

Jamil and Palmer include pitching rates in their recipes. There is no number a calculator can spit out that is "correct" for every beer. Sure it's a good starting point, but Mr. Malty puts you at 30 percent underpitch. Is that really 30% for this situation, is it 10%, is it just right? Pitching rate should be looked at as a window IMO and yeast health is more than a pitching rate. Try it yourself and see what you think, or go off of notes from the experienced Brewers that have offered their opinions on this situation. Brulosophy has done a few pitching rate tests as well and I know the first one (vial vs starter) determined that the differences were nearly undetectable.

EDIT: also this quote from the article "In practice, estimating cell counts from starter volume yields good beer, but brewers should be aware that it does leave room for considerable variation in the actual cell count."

I ended up going with Wyeast 3726 farmhouse ale (likely the last pack the brew shop will see for the year), and I've made a 3 liter starter so that I can stash some yeast away for an early spring brew.

I bet it'll be a nice brew to come home to!

VictoryAle said:

I ended up going with Wyeast 3726 farmhouse ale (likely the last pack the brew shop will see for the year), and I've made a 3 liter starter so that I can stash some yeast away for an early spring brew.

I bet it'll be a nice brew to come home to!

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So how it turn out? I'm considering using this to make a toasty farmhouse. What temps did you use? How long did you condition for?

5 minutes after I mashed out my power went out ( I am a stove top brewer ), and was out for hours and hours. By the time I was able to get back to it the mash was really stinky, so I had to abort.

I have the yeast sitting in a jar in my fridge - I may give it a shot again in the spring. I know the flavors contained in a starter shouldn't be considered to be an accurate representation of what the flavors in the finished beer will be, but the starter had lots of clove going on, and I am not really a fan of clove in beer at all...

VictoryAle said:

5 minutes after I mashed out my power went out ( I am a stove top brewer ), and was out for hours and hours. By the time I was able to get back to it the mash was really stinky, so I had to abort.

I have the yeast sitting in a jar in my fridge - I may give it a shot again in the spring. I know the flavors contained in a starter shouldn't be considered to be an accurate representation of what the flavors in the finished beer will be, but the starter had lots of clove going on, and I am not really a fan of clove in beer at all...

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3726 can do that. Ferment as warm as you can to get more,fruity funky character