cara-pils vs flaked oats...when to use what?

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MonkeyWrench

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When do I use one over the other? And what are the different characteristics each impart?

I know both are used for head retention and mouth feel. Obvoiusly you would not use oats in a pale because of the haze, but what about in a wit?

Would you ever use both in a recipe? What would be the result of .5lb cara-pils and .5lb oats in the same 5 gal batch?
 
Carapils improves head retention and mouthfeel, however flaked oats improves head retention and adds a creaminess to the mouthfeel of the beer. I use Flaked Oats in only in my stouts. I stopped buying and using carapils because it was just something that made my beer cost more. I just mash at 154 instead of 151 or 152 and you still get the head retention and but it drops you fermentables a little so you can just add an extra pound or two of base malt. 1 pund of base malt is a lot cheaper than a pound of Carapils. Hope that helps
 
Also in a Wit your wheat malt will give you your head retention so I wouldnt use either in a recipe with a lot of wheat malt. You can also add wheat malt to gain head retention. just add like a pound or so per 10 gallon batch. My APA I mash at 154 and also have 1 piound of wheat the head stays on my beer all the way to the bottom of the glass.
 
Southside has a point. Both contribute something different, though their descriptions are very similar. Foam retention is enhanced by either. Mouthfeel is enhanced by both, but the specific feel imparted by each is different. I find flaked oats to be slick, almost oily if used in quantity, and CaraPils just feels "firmer".

I wouldn't use both. They're both tools. Select a specific tool for a specific job; if you use all tools available to you, at best you'll over-complicate things and at worst you'll ruin your project. Brewing is no different than carpentry in that respect. ;)

Flaked oats can really enhance beers, regardless of style. Haze is only really an issue if you exceed 5% of the grist. I've used flaked oats in Bitter before and it turned out really well - good flavor, excellent mouthfeel (Real Ale condition) and no haze at all.

Southside is also right that CaraPils is a crutch you don't really need as a mashing brewer (I'm assuming you're a mashing brewer because you're talking about ingredients which must be mashed to be really effective). If you're concerned about mouthfeel and body, examine your mashing procedure before you bring in another ingredient. Same with foam retention: Procedure and technique have a large impact on that, as does the selection of base malt in the grist.

If something is off, 95% of the time it's the operator, not the tool. :D

Edited to add: Flaked oats totally rock in Witbier. I use 'em in my Witbier recipe.

Cheers!

Bob
 
Flaked oats can really enhance beers, regardless of style. Haze is only really an issue if you exceed 5% of the grist. I've used flaked oats in Bitter before and it turned out really well - good flavor, excellent mouthfeel (Real Ale condition) and no haze at all.

+1. Although out of style, I use flaked oats (Well, quick oats) in my bitter. It gives a nice smooth feel with no haze whatsoever. at 3.5% or even a bit higher.
 
If you're concerned about mouthfeel and body, examine your mashing procedure before you bring in another ingredient. Same with foam retention: Procedure and technique have a large impact on that, as does the selection of base malt in the grist.

+1
I like the way you think and agree 100%

MO/Crystal + hops =
 
Cool. Good info.

The reason I ask, Blue Moon says they use oats to brew, but most recipies I see use cara-pils and no oats at all. I might brew it one way, then the other and compare.

Some also have some flaked wheat along with the cara-pils.
 
Most people use CaraPils as a sort-of standard; you can see it in all their recipes. It's as though they add it because they always add it. That's one reason why I consider it a crutch.

@SpanishCastleAle - I don't really disagree. It is a tool. However, it is a tool which can be done away with once the user gets some skill and experience under his belt, because any benefit it provides can be had from mashing technique. You can't say that about flaked wheat, or flaked oats, or...I'm trying to think of another ingredient like that, and can't. ;) That makes it a crutch when an experienced brewer continues to use it. If you need what it provides, improve your mashing technique. That'll solve the problem without added expense and possible ingredient interaction.*

Regards,

Bob

* Remember, CaraPils has many of the same characteristics as Crystal/Caramel malts. Used in combination, they can take a perfectly reasonable grist out of whack.
 
* Remember, CaraPils has many of the same characteristics as Crystal/Caramel malts. Used in combination, they can take a perfectly reasonable grist out of whack.

Hmmm...I have 1lb Caramel 40 and .5lb CaraPils in the same paper bag waiting for me to make an Amber this weekend along with 4lbs Amber DME and 2lbs Pale 2 Row. Am I going to create a massively foamy head on this one? Since they are already crushed and mixed, should I just add half of them, or am I ok?
 
You should be fine. Most extracts are relatively low on proteins. Your minimash will overcome that and make everything fine.

That's why Briess mash their Gold and Pilsner extracts with a proportion of CaraPils in the grist.

Fret not!
 
Hmmm...I have 1lb Caramel 40 and .5lb CaraPils in the same paper bag waiting for me to make an Amber this weekend along with 4lbs Amber DME and 2lbs Pale 2 Row. Am I going to create a massively foamy head on this one? Since they are already crushed and mixed, should I just add half of them, or am I ok?

Use it all, breh
 
Nobody uses flaked barley? I use it and it does wonders!

I do on some recipes, but it's always easier to get a few % of wheat malt from the bin and toss that in for a nice fluffy head. Wheat malt has always been a little easier to justify a bulk purchase of than flaked barley.

I do like flaked oats in my bitters now. My favorite beer is coming down to a Ordinary Bitter, 95% MO, 5% Flaked oats and Fuggles. I could drink that all day long.
 
However, it is a tool which can be done away with once the user gets some skill and experience under his belt, because any benefit it provides can be had from mashing technique. You can't say that about flaked wheat, or flaked oats, or...I'm trying to think of another ingredient like that, and can't. ;) That makes it a crutch when an experienced brewer continues to use it. If you need what it provides, improve your mashing technique. That'll solve the problem without added expense and possible ingredient interaction.

Can you explain what sort of mashing techniques result in better head retention and lacing? Step mashes? Decoctions? Ummm... What else is there?
 
Nobody uses flaked barley? I use it and it does wonders!
Yes! IMO, if it's head retention you're after this is the best of the usual contenders. Great mouthfeel too.

Bob,
Yes, I'm aware of mashing techniques to get a more dextrinous wort but I still think Carapils/Carafoam are a usefool tool.
 
As I said before, I don't really disagree with what you're saying. I disagree with the practice of simply using it regardless of whether it's useful or not. ;)

As for mashing techniques, yes, step mashing - adding a brief additional, lower-temperature rest - can, depending on the pale malt chosen, positively enhance foam. You don't need a RIMS setup to do that, either. Just dough in on the dry side to begin with, say 0.6:1. Then add an additional infusion to rise to a relatively high saccharification temperature, then mash out as usual.

The technique comes from adjunct brewing, where one uses 25-35% adjunct - flaked maize or rice - in order to release more proteins into the wort. As adjuncts lack the proteins which produce and enhance foam, you need to get more from the pale malt. The reason flaked oats and barley work so well to enhance foam is the relative abundance of proteins they contain; that's also why they produce excessive haze when used in too-large proportions of the grist.

You do need to be careful, however; too long at the lower temperature (around 140F) will excessively degrade the proteins you're trying to produce, reversing what you're trying to do. There's a time/temperature balance which promotes foam-enhancing proteins while degrading haze-inducing proteins. You'll have to experiment in your own brewhouse to find the right balance with your ingredients. In my brewery I get good results with 30 minutes at 140F and 30 minutes at 158F (40 and 60C). Look up the work of George Fix for more detail than even I like to dive into. ;)

I admit I don't really know much about decoction other than that it promotes a swell malty characteristic. I need to dig into Noonan again.

It should occur to most readers that most modern pale malts are so modified that plenty of foam-enhancing proteins are produced with a normal single-infusion mash. If you're not getting sufficient foam with malts like Maris Otter, investigate something else in your process, like serving procedure. I know I get plenty of foam with just pale malt, so long as I use clean glassware and clean draught lines. Soap residue plays havoc with foam.

The degree of modification plays a huge role in how you approach mashing. Undermodified malts, or malts with excessive proteins like 6-row, need more steps. Highly-modified malts, like UK pale ale malts, shouldn't need any additional steps at all. Get a malt analysis from your supplier. If he doesn't have it handy, have him get it for you. All it takes is an email or call to his supplier. In fact, it's instructive to compare analyses from different pale malts; as an exercise, take a look at the malt analyses from Maris Otter (Muntons or Pauls or whatever), Briess Pale Ale, Briess 2-row Pale, Briess 6-row Pale*, and a Continental Pils malt like Weyermann.

Good luck! :mug:

Bob

* Sample Briess analyses are available on their website. Go to http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Default.htm and click around the Base Malts and High-Temp Kilned Malts tabs. The basic analyses are available in PDF format.
 
Do yourself a favor and buy "Designing Great Beers" by Ray Daniels Good coverage and quick reference. I highly recommend it.
 
Do yourself a favor and buy "Designing Great Beers" by Ray Daniels Good coverage and quick reference. I highly recommend it.

Ordered that book last week. Amazon says it ships on Tuesday. Slow at work, should be able to read it cover to cover.

More great info in here. I love it! I'm slowly getting a handle on the "science" of brewing.
 
Nobody uses flaked barley? I use it and it does wonders!

I've just started using flaked barley in my pale ales. A few people I know add a small portion of wheat in all their brews for head retention, I decided to use flaked barley because I figure that the taste should be more consistent when using in a beer that normally does not contain wheat.

I substitute 500g pale malt for 500g flaked barley, but only when there are no other ingredients (such as crystal malt or wheat) that contribute to head retention. BeerSmith tells me that flaked barley is not to be used in pale ale because of haze issues, I've had absolutely zero haze problems. But then I cold condition my ales for a week before bottling and I find that this eliminates haze later on.
 
As I said before, I don't really disagree with what you're saying. I disagree with the practice of simply using it regardless of whether it's useful or not.
Ah, then we actually agree.:mug:

An extended rest at the high-end, like 158-162 can also benefit head retention but I can't really explain why.
 
I'm in the minority here and almost always use a step mash. I made an IPA on Sat. where I mashed in at 122*F and immediately ramped it up over the next 20 min. to 154*F where I held it for 45 min. then up to 160*F for 15 min. before raising it to 170*F (no rest). When draining into the carboy after chilling, the wort was foaming like crazy. It took twice as much Fermcap as I normally use to get the foam under control. The Base malt was Golden Promise. (+ 1.5 lbs Munich and 0.5 lbs ea. of CaraMunich and Wheat). Most of my beers have a little wheat in them, but I add it for the mouthfeel/richness that it gives. The extra head retention is just a bonus

When I use Pilsner malt (Best Malz), I've found that a 20 min. rest at 122*F work well for me.

I remember an old thread where someone was talking about scaling up/going commercial, and the consensus from the pros he had talked to was to ditch the carapils in the recipe and change the mash schedule to get the same results without the extra cost of using carapils which is much more expensive than a typical base malt. For homebrewers the cost isn't really an issue, but when you look to scale up, then it is something to be considered.

Plus for me personally, I like the challenge of maximizing flavors, mouthfeel, etc, while using very basic recipes. I guess it is the same philosophy as not burying a nice piece of steak with a ton of steak sauce or whatever. What makes a steak great is how you cook it, not what you put on it, although a tiny bit can enhance it. Of course, you must start with a great piece of meat (aka ingredients) to begin with.
 
I'm in the minority here and almost always use a step mash. I made an IPA on Sat. where I mashed in at 122*F and immediately ramped it up over the next 20 min. to 154*F where I held it for 45 min. then up to 160*F for 15 min. before raising it to 170*F (no rest). When draining into the carboy after chilling, the wort was foaming like crazy. It took twice as much Fermcap as I normally use to get the foam under control. The Base malt was Golden Promise. (+ 1.5 lbs Munich and 0.5 lbs ea. of CaraMunich and Wheat). Most of my beers have a little wheat in them, but I add it for the mouthfeel/richness that it gives. The extra head retention is just a bonus

When I use Pilsner malt (Best Malz), I've found that a 20 min. rest at 122*F work well for me.

Thanks for your input. I've run across several over your previous posts while searching for info on protein rests. I brew mostly Belgian Ales and my base malt is Belgian Pilsen (Castle - Typical Malt Analyis).

I have had persistent issues with chill haze and mediocre head retention in spite of upping my boil vigor, using irish moss/whirlfloc, and chilling rapidly. I have a HERMS rig so incorporating a protein rest in my mash is as simple as hitting a few buttons on my controller but I've been afraid to give it a try since the general mantra on this site is that it will kill head retention.

I'm going to try a protein rest on my next batch. Here's the grain bill:

* 6 lbs. Belgian Pils
* 2.5 lbs. Vienna
* 0.5 lbs. Belgian Caramunich
* 1 oz. Carafa I

Here's the mash schedule I had planned:

122F for 20 min.
152F for 60 min.
163F mash out/sparge.

Any thoughts?
 
Well since pjj2ba admitted to it I will too...even though it seems most say to skip protein rests I still do them and it seems those beers usually turn out best. I certainly don't notice poor head with those beers (just the opposite).

IMO, mashing differently and using Carapils yields different results. From what I've read, it's an ingredient in Pilsner Urquell and I know I saw it sitting on a pallet at New Belgium Brewery ready to go into the barley crusher. They brew a lot and I would think if they could get the same results without using a high-priced grain they would.
 
I've been afraid to give it a try since the general mantra on this site is that it will kill head retention.

I'm waging a slow campaign to fight this mantra.

People hear, "today's malts are well modified so a protein rest is not needed" Which get's intepreted as there is no benefit to doing them. The first point is, needed for what? I think most of this is directed at chill haze, and yes, one can do a simple infusion and get clear beers. But I don't think this extends to flavor and body. I think a protein rest (and step mashes in general), can make improvemnts in these areas. I agree, one can make great beer without them, BUT, I believe one can make phenomenal beers buy utilizing a protein rest (and step mashes in general).

Then people hear that a LONG protein rest can lead to a loss of head retention and thin beers, and this gets interpreted as ANY protein rest leads to a loss of head retention and thin beers. This by the way is interesting as people tend to disregard the role of proteins in the body of a beer, and the Mantra there is mash high for a beer with more body. So if a long protein rest leads to a loss of body, does that not suggest that proteins are important for body? In my opinion, to get the most body in a beer, do a protein rest and THEN, mash high. And when you want a beer with less body, doing a protein rest, and mashing low will prevent the beer from being to thin.

To me Belgian Ales (pilsner malt) just scream for a protein rest and the extra richness they have compared to an English Ale (pale malt). Of course the yeast play a big role in the differences between these two, but that is not all of it
 
To me Belgian Ales (pilsner malt) just scream for a protein rest and the extra richness they have compared to an English Ale (pale malt). Of course the yeast play a big role in the differences between these two, but that is not all of it

Excellent. I've been getting great attenuation and wonderful flavors from the yeast but I'm just missing a little "something" from the malt to round out my ales. If this does the trick I'll be joining you in your campaign in a few weeks. :)
 
I think you'll find this may do the trick. I don't think the differences between w/ and w/o a protein rest are really big, but it does give that extra little something that puts a beer over the top.

If someone is happy with their brews, then I wouldn't bother. But, if like you, think there is a little someting missing from a beer, then it is worth trying a p-rest.

Keep us posted on your results
 
I think you'll find this may do the trick. I don't think the differences between w/ and w/o a protein rest are really big, but it does give that extra little something that puts a beer over the top.

If someone is happy with their brews, then I wouldn't bother. But, if like you, think there is a little someting missing from a beer, then it is worth trying a p-rest.

Keep us posted on your results

You know, I don't think I have any idea what a protein rest is. Could someone fill me in? Tried to look it up, but didn't find anything that I felt answered the question..
 
Ok, so to add a little to this topic and continue the "CaraPils is a crutch" theme....

I am reading "Designing Great Beers" - Ray Daniels and he writes this about CaraPils:

"Dextrin malt (also known as CaraPils, sometimes light carastan): This light-colored (about 10*L) crystal malt product contributes mostly body, with little flavor or color impact, and may be used in light beers, such as Pilseners. Generally, the kernel is very hard and glassy. It contains no enzymes."

So basically, it's Caramel/Crystal - 10. Why would this have any different characteristics than Caramel/Crystal - 20 or 120 for that matter?
 
Ok, so to add a little to this topic and continue the "CaraPils is a crutch" theme....

I am reading "Designing Great Beers" - Ray Daniels and he writes this about CaraPils:

"Dextrin malt (also known as CaraPils, sometimes light carastan): This light-colored (about 10*L) crystal malt product contributes mostly body, with little flavor or color impact, and may be used in light beers, such as Pilseners. Generally, the kernel is very hard and glassy. It contains no enzymes."

So basically, it's Caramel/Crystal - 10. Why would this have any different characteristics than Caramel/Crystal - 20 or 120 for that matter?
The Carapils I've used was like 2L and I usually use Weyermann Carafoam which is also ~2L.
 
The book was originally published in 96 and re-published in 2000. It's possible things have changed or he had some bad info. He does repeat himself while describing Caramel/Crystal and its colors with CaraPils being the lightest at 10.

He also says that all grains in the Caramel/Crystal catagory are all using the same malting process. So maybe CaraPils is Caramel/Crystal 2? Malted the same way and marketed under a different name.
 
carapils IS a crystal malt, the degrees L varies between companies, but it is very similar to 10L. you also have to take it into account as a crystal malt when you're adding it to grain bills. So for a grain bill that has 10% crystal 60 and you add 5% carapils to it, the total amount of crystals will be 15%, which is usually a bit high for most styles.
 
carapils IS a crystal malt, the degrees L varies between companies, but it is very similar to 10L. you also have to take it into account as a crystal malt when you're adding it to grain bills. So for a grain bill that has 10% crystal 60 and you add 5% carapils to it, the total amount of crystals will be 15%, which is usually a bit high for most styles.

Ya, that's good to know. I've read plenty of times on here where someone complains about the head and it's suggested to ADD .5lb CaraPils, or it's just arbitrarily added to a recipe without taking into account the total crystal malt.

So instead of adding CaraPils to a recipe, it should be substituted for some of the crystal unless adding more crystal malt is what you are intending.
 
Ok, I agree that step mashing will help to a degree for your protien rests, and also the modified malts today do not require most of these rests (maybe some, but not all). I prefer to not do step mashes based on the gear that I am using, so like I stated in the beginning I found a way around that problem of head retention. Add a pound or 2 more of base malt and mash at a higher temp(this way you still get your OG) and or add a pound of wheat malt to your bill. The protiens from the wheat will help out in this case also.

Also, a thing to remember that many people might not think about is the glass you are pouring in to. Never use a glass that is ran in a dishwasher with "jet Dry" or the soap that I have found out. I wash all glassware by hand. There are some articles out there about glassware washing and how to tell when you have a clean glass. I could not figure out what happened to my head retention when I moved to a new house and then I read an article on this and I was running my glasses throught the dishwasher. I washed 1 glass by hand and let it dry, poured a beer and TADA! amazing head retention reappeared :)

just thought I would share my last $.02

Prost!
 
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