Slight acidic aftertaste on all homebrews

Williams 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
L

latProd

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2015
Messages
131
Reaction score
30
Hi guys, I got a "problem" of sorts, and I can't figure out what's causing it.
I've recently started brewing at my place in a BIAB system, using only top quality ingredients, but no matter what style of beer I brew they have a slight acidic aftertaste, not unlike what you would find in white wine, for example. Obviously it's not nearly as prominent, but it's there. I use norwegian tap water in an area where the water is supposed to be really good.
I mash at recommended temps for that recipe,ferment at the recommended temps (sometimes a few degrees celsius over....) bottle at room temp for two weeks, then store cold. I know for a fact it's not an infection, as the beer otherwise is delicious and just how I want it, and the acidity does not get worse over time. Do any of you have any idea what could be causing this? the only variables that never changes from beer to beer are: The water, The mash kettle and the fermentation buckets.
I'm at a loss here. Could PH levels and such contribute to this?
 
Are you doing anything to your water or checking your ph?

Also are you adding any sugar to your boil?
 
I would check out your water. If your water has high alkalinity you might not be getting the PH of your mash down to the recommended range. I got some off flavors from this before neutralizing the alkalinity in my water. If you don't have a water report, do a search for a nearby city to see what other people have gotten. There are a lot of water reports posted to this site which you can find with a search. this at least gets you started.
 
First, can you buy bottled water from the market and use that? Is it acidic or maybe metallic? The second thought I had was whether you're squeezing your bag to drain. I really think there are two schools of thought on this one and either way may be fine, but I've read some people believe squeezing the grain bag could result in excess tannins. Tannins are what you taste in wine.

Fermenting a few degrees over, whether Celsius or Fahrenheit, could actually be too high. It depends on the yeast really and what temperature you're fermenting at in the first place.

Do you know your pH of your mash? It can absolutely be a contributing factor.
 
Hello said:
First, can you buy bottled water from the market and use that? Is it acidic or maybe metallic? The second thought I had was whether you're squeezing your bag to drain. I really think there are two schools of thought on this one and either way may be fine, but I've read some people believe squeezing the grain bag could result in excess tannins. Tannins are what you taste in wine.

Fermenting a few degrees over, whether Celsius or Fahrenheit, could actually be too high. It depends on the yeast really and what temperature you're fermenting at in the first place.

Do you know your pH of your mash? It can absolutely be a contributing factor.
Click to expand...


Tannin extraction would have an astringency more commonly found in red wines and have a mouth drying feel to it.
 
Thanks for the fast replies!
I haven't got a clue about the PH, I guess I should get that checked out. I guess there is a certain metallic quality to the acidity now that I think about it.
I don't squeeze the bag, personally, due to the fact that lots of people claim that it results in excess tannins. better safe than sorry on that one.
Most of the beers I've made I use WLP 001 or safale us-05, typical IPA style beers. But I did use WLP 011 for a Biere de Garde, and it turned out exactly the same in terms of the acidic aftertaste.

Speaking of water, what is the recommended PH range I should be aiming for? I've never done much reading on the subject of water I'm afraid
 
How's the beer taste after letting it age for a few weeks? You said it doesn't get worse with time but does it get better?
 
latProd said:
Thanks for the fast replies!
I haven't got a clue about the PH, I guess I should get that checked out. I guess there is a certain metallic quality to the acidity now that I think about it.
I don't squeeze the bag, personally, due to the fact that lots of people claim that it results in excess tannins. better safe than sorry on that one.
Most of the beers I've made I use WLP 001 or safale us-05, typical IPA style beers. But I did use WLP 011 for a Biere de Garde, and it turned out exactly the same in terms of the acidic aftertaste.

Speaking of water, what is the recommended PH range I should be aiming for? I've never done much reading on the subject of water I'm afraid
Click to expand...

Your target is 5.2. I would try brewing a batch with bottled water and see how that goes.
 
fj605 said:
How's the beer taste after letting it age for a few weeks? You said it doesn't get worse with time but does it get better?
Click to expand...

Good question. No, it stays pretty much the same, as far as I can taste. My Biere de Garde has been stored cold for almost 2 months and as far as I can tell it hasn't changed much
 
Hello said:
Your target is 5.2. I would try brewing a batch with bottled water and see how that goes.
Click to expand...

Okay, thanks, that's a really good idea. Atleast it's a simple way of finding out whether the water is the problem. :D
 
Well, some of the water gurus recommend a slightly higher mash pH than 5.2. The low end, 5.2-5.3 is good for lighter, drier beers while the higher end, 5.5-5.6 is good for richer beers like oatmeal stouts.
 
JonM said:
Well, some of the water gurus recommend a slightly higher mash pH than 5.2. The low end, 5.2-5.3 is good for lighter, drier beers while the higher end, 5.5-5.6 is good for richer beers like oatmeal stouts.
Click to expand...

Nice to know! So how would i know what's causing the acidity, is the PH too high or too low? I've read through John Palmers how to brew, but the water chapter is way too technical for me. If i want to lower the PH, for example, should I add calcium sualcium sulfate or calcium chloride? It's a real jungle of information ;)
 
JonM said:
Here's a great place to start:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

EDIT: And sometimes acetaldehyde (a product of stressed yeast) can taste kind of tart/appley. Are you sure the problem is low pH and not acetaldehyde?
Click to expand...

Nope, I am not sure, that's what I'm trying to establish. My tastebuds aren't pro or anything, but it just doesn't feel tart/appley, it's slightly more acidic/metallic. But yeah, you could be right. Process of elimination I guess
 
Foosier said:
I would check out your water. If your water has high alkalinity you might not be getting the PH of your mash down to the recommended range. I got some off flavors from this before neutralizing the alkalinity in my water. If you don't have a water report, do a search for a nearby city to see what other people have gotten. There are a lot of water reports posted to this site which you can find with a search. this at least gets you started.
Click to expand...

What did you use to neutralize the alkalinity? and how much would you use approximately for a 5 gallon batch?
 
latProd said:
What did you use to neutralize the alkalinity? and how much would you use approximately for a 5 gallon batch?
Click to expand...


If your issue is a low mash ph you'll want to raise your alkalinity. That can be done with a few chemicals, such as baking soda or chalk. It's also completely dependent on your starting water and your grain bill. Darker malts are naturally acidic, so you'll use something to boost residual alkalinity, pale ales will need some calcium and maybe an acid malt or lactic acid addition to get ph down.
 
Since you're new to water adjustments, to be clear, we're not talking about the pH of plain water, it's the pH of your mash after the water is mixed with the grains and allowed to sit for a minimum of 10 minutes or so...
 
cyanmonkey said:
If your issue is a low mash ph you'll want to raise your alkalinity. That can be done with a few chemicals, such as baking soda or chalk. It's also completely dependent on your starting water and your grain bill. Darker malts are naturally acidic, so you'll use something to boost residual alkalinity, pale ales will need some calcium and maybe an acid malt or lactic acid addition to get ph down.
Click to expand...

Thanks man, those are good starting points! I'll look into it and have a word with my local brewshop.
 
MerlinWerks said:
Since you're new to water adjustments, to be clear, we're not talking about the pH of plain water, it's the pH of your mash after the water is mixed with the grains and allowed to sit for a minimum of 10 minutes or so...
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's a pretty important distinction ;) I guess I should get some kind of ph measuring device and see where I'm at. If I can eliminate this slight off flavor then I'm golden
 
You could also try tasting your wort before pitching. If the acidity is there before fermentation, then there is definitely an issue with your mash. If the acidity develops as it ferments, then I would look elsewhere (tho mash can't be ruled out).
 
bu_gee said:
You could also try tasting your wort before pitching. If the acidity is there before fermentation, then there is definitely an issue with your mash. If the acidity develops as it ferments, then I would look elsewhere (tho mash can't be ruled out).
Click to expand...

Hmm I never thought of that. I've tried tasting mash before fermentation before... Can't remember if there was a acidic aftertaste. Good suggestion, I will definately do that next time I brew. thanks!
 
latProd said:
What did you use to neutralize the alkalinity? and how much would you use approximately for a 5 gallon batch?
Click to expand...

I use 75% phosphoric Acid. It is readily available from most homebrew stores. For my batches I am usually using 3-9 milliliters for 7.5 gallons of brewing liquor (this is the total water to get me to a 5.5 gallon finished batch). The amount is calculated using the Bru'N Water spreadsheet. Check out the Brew Science forum for a ton of additional information on water quality and adjustments.

Also, a note on tannin extraction. The current wisdom is that tannin extraction is a function of temperature and PH. Specifically a PH of 6.0 or higher and temps over 160 I believe lead to tannin extraction. Both have to be present to extract tannins. As a result, it is safe to mash out at 170 as long as your mash PH is below 6.0. Conversely a PH of 6.0 but temps below 160 would be okay too (Not that you would want to do that since the PH would be off resulting in weird flavors). Squeezing the bag, grinding the malt superfine and many other "causes" of tannin extraction are myths.

For me, I had weird metallic like, you might call it acidic, biting flavors in my darker beers before I started adjusting my water to hit the right mash PH. So that is where I base my advice.
 
Make a small batch of beer using store bought spring water. If the taste is gone then it's your water. If it tastes the same it's some where else in your process.
 
Foosier said:
I use 75% phosphoric Acid. It is readily available from most homebrew stores. For my batches I am usually using 3-9 milliliters for 7.5 gallons of brewing liquor (this is the total water to get me to a 5.5 gallon finished batch). The amount is calculated using the Bru'N Water spreadsheet. Check out the Brew Science forum for a ton of additional information on water quality and adjustments.

Also, a note on tannin extraction. The current wisdom is that tannin extraction is a function of temperature and PH. Specifically a PH of 6.0 or higher and temps over 160 I believe lead to tannin extraction. Both have to be present to extract tannins. As a result, it is safe to mash out at 170 as long as your mash PH is below 6.0. Conversely a PH of 6.0 but temps below 160 would be okay too (Not that you would want to do that since the PH would be off resulting in weird flavors). Squeezing the bag, grinding the malt superfine and many other "causes" of tannin extraction are myths.

For me, I had weird metallic like, you might call it acidic, biting flavors in my darker beers before I started adjusting my water to hit the right mash PH. So that is where I base my advice.
Click to expand...


That's some solid advice, thank you! I am getting some PH strips today to measure the mash PH when I brew in a couple of days, So maybe that will shed some light on the matter. Also, I will have a word with the guys at the brewshop what they have in stock that i can potentially use to adjust if needed.
Thanks again!
 
bigdaddybrew said:
Make a small batch of beer using store bought spring water. If the taste is gone then it's your water. If it tastes the same it's some where else in your process.
Click to expand...

Yeah I am gonna do that as well, atleast I'll know if I can eliminate water from the equation.
 
That Norwegian tap water is probably coming off of igneous mountains and has very little alkalinity. In addition, that rock could easily contribute metal ions such as iron and manganese. Both of those ions contribute a metallic flavor when present at very low concentration.

If the OP is brewing darker beers, using much crystal malt, or adding a lot of calcium salts, it is possible that the mash and wort pH are being driven too low. That low pH does echo into the finished beer pH and can be reflected as a tart flavor in the beer.

By the descriptions, the presence of iron and manganese needs to be assessed first. Are there rusty or black stains on plumbing fixtures? It also sounds like adding alkalinity to the brewing water may be needed in some cases. The first step in solving this problem will be to find out what is in your water. It does sound like a water problem.
 
It doesn't look like this has been mentioned, but any chance you grind your grain in the same place that you brew? Lactic acid bacteria are naturally present on malt and grain dust in the air can be a source of lactobacillus contamination. This is a fairly common issue among brewers who grind and brew in the same space.
 
+1 on the pH being too low (as per mabrungard). An acidic taste is likely more a result of too low a pH and not too high. This is why I recommended tasting it pre-ferment. If it is acidic pre-ferment, the water is almost certainly the culprit.

Locally bottled spring water will likely have the same problem as your tap water if the problem really is too low an alkalinity.
 
bu_gee said:
Locally bottled spring water will likely have the same problem as your tap water if the problem really is too low an alkalinity.
Click to expand...

Good point. Try to purchase water from a known source that also has a basic water report on the company's website. Usually this type of water is favored because it is pure and has favorable mineralization for flavor. Then brew a small batch of beer that matches the water profile probably a lighter beer. Since I prefer lighter colored beers these bottled waters work well for me but most bottled water wouldn't have enough alkalinity to brew a dark beer.

Sounds like you need to send away for a water report.
 
mabrungard said:
That Norwegian tap water is probably coming off of igneous mountains and has very little alkalinity. In addition, that rock could easily contribute metal ions such as iron and manganese. Both of those ions contribute a metallic flavor when present at very low concentration.

If the OP is brewing darker beers, using much crystal malt, or adding a lot of calcium salts, it is possible that the mash and wort pH are being driven too low. That low pH does echo into the finished beer pH and can be reflected as a tart flavor in the beer.

By the descriptions, the presence of iron and manganese needs to be assessed first. Are there rusty or black stains on plumbing fixtures? It also sounds like adding alkalinity to the brewing water may be needed in some cases. The first step in solving this problem will be to find out what is in your water. It does sound like a water problem.
Click to expand...

I will have to do some research on how to get a water report from my area in some way, not sure how to go about this, but I will definately try. And yes, I do like to brew darker beers, you are spot on there.
I haven't checked any of the plumbing fixtures, I got a new kitchen installed when i bought the place two years ago, and lots of the plumbing in there has been replaced. Thank you for the informative reply. How do you go about raising alkalinity?
 
BigPerm said:
It doesn't look like this has been mentioned, but any chance you grind your grain in the same place that you brew? Lactic acid bacteria are naturally present on malt and grain dust in the air can be a source of lactobacillus contamination. This is a fairly common issue among brewers who grind and brew in the same space.
Click to expand...

No, I just order the grains and have the guys at the brewshop grind them up for me. But I have seen many references to lactobacillus when googling this issue. But if that was the case, wouldn't the taste just get worse and worse with time?
 
Ok so I've managed to find some info on a city council site which lists some chemical properties of the water I use. Not sure what any of it means, but here goes. Apparently we have soft water in our area, if that makes a difference:

pH-value 7,40-7,90
Conductivity: 10,2-12 mS/m
Alcalinity: 0,60-0,80 mmol/l (millimol per liter, or something. Might be a norwegian term, sorry)

lime: 17 - 21 mg Ca/l
hardness: 2,4 – 3,0 ºdH
 
Your water is a bit basic. If it was lower than 7 it would be acidic. 8 is a decent base. 9 will clean your drains
 
biggmatt said:
try using distilled water. It is a perfect 7. No flavors, nothing
Click to expand...

The ironic thing is that any kind of water that you buy, be it bottled or distilled, costs a fortune over here. It's ridiculous. But I could do it once for testing purposes, ofcourse.

So maybe low PH in the mash is not a problem here... I will measure it anyway to be sure.
 
where in norway are you? i'm living in stavanger, and I simply emailed the kommune and asked for a full water report. i posted it on here, and mabrungard helped with a lot of information. which is honestly who i would listen to on here above anybody else's advice (sorry everybody else who commented if you also happen to be a water expert).

i know plenty of people from a couple of different cities in norway that have been brewing with the tap water for a long time. no water adjustments. i will say that for stavanger i'm starting to wonder if it's too low ph for darker beers. i've brewed an oatmeal stout that had what i thought was fusels (because the temps got out of control for a short period of time). but then i brewed a black ipa that i know i had the temps under control the entire time, and it still had that biting flavor.
but in all of my paler ales, and especially my hop forward ales, they're turning out great on just tap water.
 
joshesmusica said:
where in norway are you? i'm living in stavanger, and I simply emailed the kommune and asked for a full water report. i posted it on here, and mabrungard helped with a lot of information. which is honestly who i would listen to on here above anybody else's advice (sorry everybody else who commented if you also happen to be a water expert).

i know plenty of people from a couple of different cities in norway that have been brewing with the tap water for a long time. no water adjustments. i will say that for stavanger i'm starting to wonder if it's too low ph for darker beers. i've brewed an oatmeal stout that had what i thought was fusels (because the temps got out of control for a short period of time). but then i brewed a black ipa that i know i had the temps under control the entire time, and it still had that biting flavor.
but in all of my paler ales, and especially my hop forward ales, they're turning out great on just tap water.
Click to expand...

Halla!
I live in Oslo, and overall the water quality is good where I live.
I used to brew with a couple of friends in another area of Oslo where the water kind of tastes like chloride, and for some reason, the beer never had that slightly acidic aftertaste. (Though overall I find my beers a lot better ;)
Now that I brew by myself in another area, I've got this problem. And for some reason, like you said, bly Black Ipa has been the worst so far in that respect along with my Biere de Garde, which contains dark and crystal malts. I dont wanna fiddle with my water if I can avoid it, I just wanna get to the bottom of this.
I
 
latProd said:
No, I just order the grains and have the guys at the brewshop grind them up for me. But I have seen many references to lactobacillus when googling this issue. But if that was the case, wouldn't the taste just get worse and worse with time?
Click to expand...

Maybe, but not necessarily. All depends on several factors: how much gets in, when, wort IBU, etc. This is clearly not your problem though, so just responding in the interest of providing information. Good luck with your problem!

Out of curiosity, have you tried adding small amounts of salts (CaCl2, CaSO4) to the glass, thus raising the pH and seeing if the acidic flavor subsides? If it does, and it's all a pH issue, that should be easy to fix with some of the advice you've gotten here.
 
i'm sure others can chime in on this better than i can, but it sounds like the darker malts could be driving your (and mine) ph down a bit. i wonder if it would help to steep the darker malts separately from the mash?
 

Similar threads

Collin Evans
Fermentation Lag
Replies
5
Views
245
sibelman
sibelman
Ali01
Apart from ABV, whats the difference between two finished beers with an OG of 1.050 and 1.020
Replies
12
Views
733
RichK
R
refect
How far will the flavor from lactic acid carry over?
Replies
9
Views
564
mabrungard
mabrungard
P
swap citric for lactic acid
Replies
4
Views
426
phbern
P
S
Water profile advice
Replies
12
Views
911
stiray
S
InkBird 300

Latest posts

Back
Top