alternative yeast starter method working well for me

I just finished my seventh five gallon batch since resuming my brewing hobby.

All my brews so far are all grain kits. None have OG of over 1.065, so this method I am proposing may not work for higher gravity worts.

Rather than use a yeast starter, I hydrate and make a quick starter as follows. Right after the hot break, and adding first hop dose, I dip a sanitized pyrex two quart pitcher into the wort and take about a quart and a half of wort. I cover immediately with plastic wrap, then cool to 70 degrees. I cool it in the freezer or lately just set it on the first step of my swimming pool to cool it. When cooled, I use a little whisk to aerate, then add my yeast. Dry yeast, or lately a mason jar with washed yeast from a previous brew. Recover, and let sit while you go tend to the boil.

After the boil, I cool the wort, siphon to primary pale or carboy, then use an agitator with my drill to aerate the wort inside the primary fermenter. I move the fermenter to my location(bathtub or cool area of utility room) and pour in my yeast starter. In just the hour that passes, the dry yeast is hydrated and starting to ferment, same with the wyeast washed sample.

In every case, fermentation is steadily on it's way within six hours.

I like this method because often I will have a brew day come up and don't have the time to start a starter day(s) in advance. I do take out the washed yeast sample, in the mason jar, a day or two in advance and let it warm to room temp.

I like buying gadgets, and the stir plate looks cool, but I think it's all unneccessary as my results have been stellar.

All my brews are ales so far, but I see no reason why this wouldn't work for any brews. Maybe on high gravity worts I may let the starter go for an extra hour before adding to fermenter, just to increase the cell count even higher before intoducing.

I like to give my starters more time than you are allotting them with this. Plus your starter OG could be too high with this version.

Try this. After you are done collecting your wort I sometimes have a little liquid left in the MLT so I will drain that off into a sealable container for my next batch of beer.
If there is not enough liquid left in mash just add a gallon of water in let is sit for like 20 minutes and drain it off.
Put the liquid in fridge until 3 days before a brew...then I do the starter just by pulling it out of fridge boil for 10-15 minutes, chill and pitch yeast.

Yeah, I'm afraid there is probably no appreciable increase in cell count. This is really just hydrating the yeast. Plus, the other poster is right that this would be far too high gravity for a starter. Look for around 1.035.

You also don't want to rehydrate dry yeast in wort. While the yeast are taking in the water, they are briefly unable to regulate the permeability of their cell wall. I think I read that adding directly to wort cuts your viability by half or more.

KoedBrew said:

I like to give my starters more time than you are allotting them with this. Plus your starter OG could be too high with this version.

Try this. After you are done collecting your wort I sometimes have a little liquid left in the MLT so I will drain that off into a sealable container for my next batch of beer.
If there is not enough liquid left in mash just add a gallon of water in let is sit for like 20 minutes and drain it off.
Put the liquid in fridge until 3 days before a brew...then I do the starter just by pulling it out of fridge boil for 10-15 minutes, chill and pitch yeast.

Click to expand...

Hmmmm, that is not a bad idea. I wonder how long that "starter wort" would remain good if kept in a sanitized container in the fridge? I guess you could still boil it before pitching your yeast...

I welcome your comments, as I thought there would be some reason others are not doing this. However, my results have been a quick starting fermentation, and the beers taste great. The yeast seem happy.

Is there some compelling reason not to do it this way?

Isn't the end goal being met?

Am I imparting some "off flavor" or other issue by doing this?

I am open minded to changing, it's just that my results have been totally satisfactory. The yeasts I have done this with are Safale 05, wyeast 1056, and Safale 23(lager)

KoedBrew said:

I like to give my starters more time than you are allotting them with this. Plus your starter OG could be too high with this version.

Try this. After you are done collecting your wort I sometimes have a little liquid left in the MLT so I will drain that off into a sealable container for my next batch of beer.
If there is not enough liquid left in mash just add a gallon of water in let is sit for like 20 minutes and drain it off.
Put the liquid in fridge until 3 days before a brew...then I do the starter just by pulling it out of fridge boil for 10-15 minutes, chill and pitch yeast.

Click to expand...

Thats exactly what I do. I don't even bother reboiling. It was boiled already and sitting in a sanitized mason jar. Sure, I probably should, but it's been working just fine without reboiling.

I brewed monday, and whatever wort abd trub was left, I put in a 2 qt mason jar and set it in the fridge. Last night, I drank a Brooklyn sorachi ace which is bottle conditioned, so I used my saved wort to harvest the yeast.

A stir pkate, while not totally necessary, does work wonders for starters. 24 hours on the plate gives you a ton more yeast than occasional shaking. I built mine for less than ten bucks, so it was a no brainer.

Well, this is not a "starter". It is re-hydrating dried yeast.

Starters are for liquid yeast and take at least 12 hours. mrmalty.com has a lot of starter information.

One poster stated that the yeast cell walls cannot properly tolerate the chemistry of the wort. I have also read this.

I do not use dry yeast anymore. I want the broader selection that liquid yeast allows. But, it seems to me that using water at the proper temperature would be just as easy.

Griff777 said:

I welcome your comments, as I thought there would be some reason others are not doing this. However, my results have been a quick starting fermentation, and the beers taste great. The yeast seem happy.

Is there some compelling reason not to do it this way?

Isn't the end goal being met?

Am I imparting some "off flavor" or other issue by doing this?

I am open minded to changing, it's just that my results have been totally satisfactory. The yeasts I have done this with are Safale 05, wyeast 1056, and Safale 23(lager)

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If it works and you like the beer, keep at it and have fun. I'd copy you but I don't have a pool anymore!

I would + 1 the hydration comments and add that I think that what you are seeing is the effect of very good areation. I know that when I started areating my starter and wort, well, I could not believe the improvement in the utlization/performance of the yeast. Try making a "traditional" starter 24 +or- hours ahead on your next batch, keep everything else the same and see what the effect is. If it changes nothing, particularly no off flavor from stressed yeast....just keep doing what you are doing. If it works....

that's a good idea, making a traditional starter and see if it makes a difference.

My point is... My fermentation is up and chugging within six hours doing it this way. So even if i am just "hydrating", I am having good results.

Those of you that do starters for 24 to 48 hours ahead, how long typically at 70 degrees does it take for your fermentation to start. Fermentation meaning a bubble every ten seconds or so.

I have read somewhere that you want to acclimate the yeast to the wort, and temperatue of the primary. I think i am definitely doing that. I even add the first dose of hops before taking my sample.

It seems that the purpose of the starter is simply to infuse a lot more cells to the wort, but for all that trouble it seems like you are only gaining a quicker initial fermentation.

My intent with this thread was just to get opinions if I was really causing a problem somehow with the final product. I keep notes on all brews and have only been able to start drinking two of them. Of course, the first two are getting depleted and everyone enjoys the final product.

I guess that's the main goal. I have ordered a couple more hop head ipa kits and I will do some experimenting with starter methods and report back.

I have gathered alot of real good info at this site and enjoy all the posts.

Griff777 said:

that's a good idea, making a traditional starter and see if it makes a difference.

My point is... My fermentation is up and chugging within six hours doing it this way. So even if i am just "hydrating", I am having good results.

Those of you that do starters for 24 to 48 hours ahead, how long typically at 70 degrees does it take for your fermentation to start. Fermentation meaning a bubble every ten seconds or so.

I have read somewhere that you want to acclimate the yeast to the wort, and temperatue of the primary. I think i am definitely doing that. I even add the first dose of hops before taking my sample.

It seems that the purpose of the starter is simply to infuse a lot more cells to the wort, but for all that trouble it seems like you are only gaining a quicker initial fermentation.

My intent with this thread was just to get opinions if I was really causing a problem somehow with the final product. I keep notes on all brews and have only been able to start drinking two of them. Of course, the first two are getting depleted and everyone enjoys the final product.

I guess that's the main goal. I have ordered a couple more hop head ipa kits and I will do some experimenting with starter methods and report back.

I have gathered alot of real good info at this site and enjoy all the posts.

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If it's working for you and you're happy with your results, don't let anyone dissuade you. That said, it's not correct to say that the purpose of a starter is to get a quicker start to fermentation. If that were the major consideration, we could ferment everything at 90ºF and be done in 24 hours.

Pitching rates and yeast health has a significant effect on the "yeast character" of your beer. That's not to say that it will be bad if you pitch less, but people tend to converge on something in the neighborhood of .5-1 million cells / mL / degree Plato of wort as providing the right amount of growth and the cleanest ferments. If you're interested in experimenting yourself, however, that can only be a good thing.

I do this very same thing with excellent results, pretty much in line with yours....

the only thing bad about comparing results is it takes so long you eventually don't remember what you are comparing.

Or, like the guy on Youtube comparing yeasts. One brew tasted hoppier, then he remembered he siphoned the first sample from the bottom and the second sample tasted less hoppy. Blew the whole test on one little variable.

Sometimes I think all the science stuff is to sell books. Do you really think the enzymes know the difference between 151 and 153 degrees? Most thermometers are not accurate(although I did by a thermopen). The mash is cooler toward the bottom and warmer toward the top. where do you take the temperature?

I am not sure the yeast really care about the OG of the starter material. I see little bubbles coming up within an hour and when I pitch them, they seem really happy.

For people new to brewing, there is so much to think about let alone remembering to do a starter in advance and burning the edges of the glass with a lighter. I have never had a batch of beer go bad and I must confess my mouth is the autosiphon.(I don't slobber on the tube) I was also thinking, maybe throw some ice cubes in the hot wort to cool it down and dilute it a bit.

thanks again to all for your thoughts. Griff

enzymes DO know the difference but with 2 degrees, it's probably not much. enzymes work on a bell curve, certain temps set the stage for certain reactions but it's not like a switch, it's more of a gradual change of reaction from one range of temps to the other.

yeast do care about OG of the starter material, the lower OG puts less stress on them. this much has been investigated by many folks smarter than me.

at the end of the day, though, if you're happy with what you're doing, do it.

I agree that if you are happy with the results, you're not doing anything wrong.

However, dry yeasts already contain all the nutrients/sugars/etc that the cells require. I would recommend following the manufacturer's directions and using water vice wort to rehydrate. That is, unless the method you use is so much easier than using water that it would negatively impact your brewday.

just to follow up, I now do starters with a stir plate and have noticed that fermentation is up and chugging in two to three hours. I have been drinking some of my earlier brews and they are tasty with no off flavors and no problems bottle conditioning. I yeast wash and have used some Wyeast 1056 for about six more batches, and by using a starter I am getting a nice two litre supercharge to pitch.

I use the aerator agitator with my drill and make a big whirlpool for about 25 seconds before adding the yeast and my results have been fantastic. I used to brew back in the early 90's and don't remember any of my beers being this quality.

Although I don't have any complaints about the dry yeast and hydrating methods of the past, I do think using a starter and good aeration before pitching is the "ticket"

Griff777 said:

just to follow up, I now do starters with a stir plate and have noticed that fermentation is up and chugging in two to three hours. I have been drinking some of my earlier brews and they are tasty with no off flavors and no problems bottle conditioning. I yeast wash and have used some Wyeast 1056 for about six more batches, and by using a starter I am getting a nice two litre supercharge to pitch.

I use the aerator agitator with my drill and make a big whirlpool for about 25 seconds before adding the yeast and my results have been fantastic. I used to brew back in the early 90's and don't remember any of my beers being this quality.

Although I don't have any complaints about the dry yeast and hydrating methods of the past, I do think using a starter and good aeration before pitching is the "ticket"

Click to expand...

Apparently there is something to science, eh?

Griff777 said:

I welcome your comments, as I thought there would be some reason others are not doing this. However, my results have been a quick starting fermentation, and the beers taste great. The yeast seem happy.

Is there some compelling reason not to do it this way?

Isn't the end goal being met?

Am I imparting some "off flavor" or other issue by doing this?

I am open minded to changing, it's just that my results have been totally satisfactory. The yeasts I have done this with are Safale 05, wyeast 1056, and Safale 23(lager)

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FWIW, most of my fermentations start pretty quickly when just pitching dry yeast so your method may or may not be helping.

MalFet said:

You also don't want to rehydrate dry yeast in wort. While the yeast are taking in the water, they are briefly unable to regulate the permeability of their cell wall. I think I read that adding directly to wort cuts your viability by half or more.

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Have heard this many times from Jamil Z and John Palmer. And while that method may not hurt your final product, it may cause off flavors in someone else's lighter/more delicate style of beer.

I agree that its fine if certain practices stray from the norm and still produce a good end result. After all, that's how many new techniques start. I just worry that threads like this might spread information to other brewers who may end up with less than stellar results.

One packet of dry yeast has enough cells to ferment 5 gallons at a moderate OG. No starter is necessary. This brings to mind the sprinkle vs. rehydrate theories. Yes, sprinkling works for many people, but as Malfet points out you can lose a lot of viability and cause undo stress to your yeast.

To ensure my dried safale 04 yeast is good I hydrate in water at 20-25 deg C for 15 mins then add one teaspoon of brewing sugar and stir vigorously to get some air into solution. After around 2 hours I have 3 inches of meringue like foam on the top. At this stage I add it to my wort. Various USA posters say this doesn't work or is bad for the yeast, but I don't let my yeast read these posts.

BOBTHEukBREWER said:

To ensure my dried safale 04 yeast is good I hydrate in water at 20-25 deg C for 15 mins then add one teaspoon of brewing sugar and stir vigorously to get some air into solution. After around 2 hours I have 3 inches of meringue like foam on the top. At this stage I add it to my wort. Various USA posters say this doesn't work or is bad for the yeast, but I don't let my yeast read these posts.

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I am far from an expert, but the reasoning I have heard behind this is that it gets the yeast used to breaking down simple sugars as opposed to the more complex sugars in the wort. If it were me, I would try doing the same thing except replace the brewing sugar with some DME and see if that makes a difference in the quality of the brew.