Blended Beer. Cheating or not?

JayInJersey said:

Devil's Advocate here...(and admitting I haven't read all the pages)

Would taking two, three or more commercial brews and blending them together all mad scientist-like to make a new better brew be acceptable?
Or would that be cheating?

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You can do it, but it can't be entered into a competition. I hold ground that blending is ok as long its with other homebrew. That homebrew doesn't even have to be brewed by you! See olllllo's post on assistant brewers.

A commercial brewery could arguably enter a blends of other commercial beer into the GABF compeition. Just like wines or blended whisky.

I'm pretty sure everyone who has weighed in on this thread would agree that any commercial beer blended in to a homebrew would not be valid gamesmanship. Could you get away with it in comp? Of course. You could literally take the label off a commercial bottle and submit it directly.

Trevor57 said:

People making good tasting, contest winning beers probably don't give a **** if you respect them or not, regardless of their chosen process.

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If they didn't care what people thought, they wouldn't be entering competitions.



Oh, you're talking about ME. You're right.

IMHO I consider blending to win a competition to be unsportsman. I think that the purpose of the competition is to show how well you can brew a beer. When you start blending, all you show is how well you can mix beers to get a particular flavor. You may have brewed all of the individual beers, but you did not "brew" the concoction you entered.

Bobby_M said:

I'm pretty sure everyone who has weighed in on this thread would agree that any commercial beer blended in to a homebrew would not be valid gamesmanship. Could you get away with it in comp? Of course. You could literally take the label off a commercial bottle and submit it directly.

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Ah but isn't that the HEART of the matter?

Is doing something to compete in a competition that isn't DIRECTLY against the rules for the sake of winning said competition cheating?

BigB said:

IMHO I consider blending to win a competition to be unsportsman. I think that the purpose of the competition is to show how well you can brew a beer. When you start blending, all you show is how well you can mix beers to get a particular flavor. You may have brewed all of the individual beers, but you did not "brew" the concoction you entered.

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I think we have already come to the consensus that a beer is not created hot side only. Lets say one specific practice in the mashing process will get the same result as blending the original beer with X amount of a certain other beer. Which one is right? They are just both different ways to get the same end result.

JayInJersey said:

Devil's Advocate here...(and admitting I haven't read all the pages)

Would taking two, three or more commercial brews and blending them together all mad scientist-like to make a new better brew be acceptable?
Or would that be cheating?

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Here are two of the rules for the Upper Mississippi Mashout being held later this week.

Beers must be entered under the name of all brewers who helped.
Beers brewed in commercial facilities are ineligible.

I think any reasonable person would interpret the second rule as including any blended beer must contain beers complying with the rule.

Also if you used a commercial beer, say from Rogue, you would have to include John Maier's name and probably 10 or 15 other people and that would raise eyebrows both when you called the brewery to ask who participated in making the beer and when you sent in the entry form.

ETA: So I guess its clear that using commercial beer violates rules, at least in spirit, and it would be easy to rewrite the rules to bring the letter and spirit closer together if anyone tried to bend the rules (and listing all brewers would make it clear if someone used commercial beer in a blend). There is no rule in any competition I am aware of that remotely prohibits in letter or spirit a home brewer blending two of his own beers.

BigB said:

IMHO I consider blending to win a competition to be unsportsman. I think that the purpose of the competition is to show how well you can brew a beer. When you start blending, all you show is how well you can mix beers to get a particular flavor. You may have brewed all of the individual beers, but you did not "brew" the concoction you entered.

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Who exactly brewed the beer then?

olllllo said:

Well as mentioned before, these are Beer Judge Certification Program sponsored contests not Brewer Judge Certification Program contests.

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Gotta agree with BigB. It a HomeBREW competition, not a HomeBLEND competition.

You may have brewed the individual beers, but you blended your entry into the competition.

Trevor57 said:

Who exactly brewed the beer then?

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+1

Is it appropriate to say that you can't buy a bottle of Consecration that was brewed at Russian River?

The Brewer decides when a beer is finished and that may be after it is blended.

Oh no, now my Gueuze beer will never be able to be entered!!

I don't see blending as cheating, I say as long as you brewed both of the beers then let it ride.

AnOldUR said:

Gotta agree with BigB. It a HomeBREW competition, not a HomeBLEND competition.

You may have brewed the individual beers, but you blended your entry into the competition.

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Again, what makes blending not part of the brewing process? Why is dry hopping still "brewing" but blending is not? Why is adding whiskey to secondary still "brewing", but adding another beer isn't?


Oh, I know why. Because you don't like it and have this false idea that you can just mix two crappy beers together and get a great one.

I agree that a lot happens on the cold side, just look at Yeager and Paul the Nurse's Utopias clone and imagine all the work, testing, adjusting they'll be doing to that brew over the next several months.
Here's a question. Does it make a difference if the brewer intends to blend beers before heating strike water, and adjusts his brews accordingly? is this different than if the brewer totally screws up a batch and has to blend it to make it resemble the intended style?

DrDirt said:

is this different than if the brewer totally screws up a batch and has to blend it to make it resemble the intended style?

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If they can actually turn it into a good beer that way, more power to them.

DrDirt said:

I agree that a lot happens on the cold side, just look at Yeager and Paul the Nurse's Utopias clone and imagine all the work, testing, adjusting they'll be doing to that brew over the next several months.
Here's a question. Does it make a difference if the brewer intends to blend beers before heating strike water, and adjusts his brews accordingly? is this different than if the brewer totally screws up a batch and has to blend it to make it resemble the intended style?

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No, it makes no difference at all. As olllllo said above, it is the brewer's discretion when the beer is complete. If he wants to dry hop it, that's his prerogative. If he wants to add whiskey, that's his prerogative. If he wants to dump in a 2 liter of cola for whatever reason, or 1 gallon of his IPA, that's his prerogative. When he seals that bottle, fills out the comp form, and submits it, that is his/her final product, and that should be what is judged.

Synovia said:

Again, what makes blending not part of the brewing process? Why is dry hopping still "brewing" but blending is not? Why is adding whiskey to secondary still "brewing", but adding another beer isn't?

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Oh, I'd say that when "beer" becomes one of your ingredients for making beer, you've crossed the line.

Synovia said:

Oh, I know why. Because you don't like it and have this false idea that you can just mix two crappy beers together and get a great one.

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Now you're just going after the personal attack and being silly. We're not talking about "two crappy beers." The discussion is about blending beers that may or may not be out of style to create a beer that better fits the style. This is a talent that is independent of the brewing process.

You've got yourself a minority opinion there. Majority isn't always right of course but I think you're applying an unnecessary stigma to blending. Let's talk practical. You have an American ale club only competition coming up and you have an IPA that is pretty good in its own right but it dried out just a touch too much. You have a shrewd palette and know it would be much more agreeable to more people if it were just a little maltier. A 1/6th blend of bock in there would do wonders but one should not do it because it's not really brewing a good IPA. I suppose you'd call it brewing a decent IPA and maybe a decent Bock and the brewer should try again next time. Eh. I don't know about that.

Ok, same beer. It's been amazing for the last few weeks but as you get closer to the comp, you notice that the hop nose is lacking due to age. Is dropping a second dry hop in the keg before filling the bottles the same kind of cheat? It's an afterthought modification the same.

Just knowing when a beer needs work is a killer skill for a homebrewer to have. Knowing how to fix it is even harder. What if you notice that your bottles are a little overcarbed because you screwed up the priming addition and forgot to account for ferment temp? What if you release the smallest amount of pressure and recap? Should one take their licks for the overcarb, skip the comp altogether, or vent and submit an otherwise gold winning beer?

I'm just trying to show how hair-splitting your position is.

I love this thread though.

AnOldUR said:

Oh, I'd say that when "beer" becomes one of your ingredients for making beer, you've crossed the line.

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The line that YOU have defined because you don't like something.

Now you're just going after the personal attack and being silly

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Saying that I think you're being ridiculous is not a personal attack. You've presented absolutely no reason why blending is "wrong" other than that you think its cheating.



How is adding a starter to wort not "using beer as an ingredient"?

Why are people even debating blending a commercial beer with a homebrew? Boy, if there was ever a better example of a strawman argument, I don't know what the hell it would be.

the_bird said:

Why are people even debating blending a commercial beer with a homebrew? Boy, if there was ever a better example of a strawman argument, I don't know what the hell it would be.

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I think the OP left it pretty vague. Some people took it to mean blending with commercial (which everyone agrees is bad). The mere 30 out of 134 people that think any sort of blending is bad keep this thread going. Whats with these rediculously long argument threads the past few days? I throw in the towel. Blending and kegging beer are both the most horrible things you can do to beer.

Right now I have a blended beer on tap. A Roggen I brewed had a heavy mouth feel and the rye may have been a bit too much for style. I blended it with a Heffy and it came out great. I wouldn't enter it in a competition, but I will share it with friends and take what I learned and try to brew a better beer for next time.

But that's just me. You obviously have the right to do what ever you want as long as it's not against the rules and as far as I know submitting a blended beer is legal.

Bobby_M said:

You have an American ale club only competition coming up and you have an IPA that is pretty good in its own right but it dried out just a touch too much.

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For a club only comp? Sure, I'd bring the blended beer and proudly tell my friends how I got the results. Let them decide. A BJCP comp where you're being judged to style is another story.

Bobby_M said:

Ok, same beer. It's been amazing for the last few weeks but as you get closer to the comp, you notice that the hop nose is lacking due to age. Is dropping a second dry hop in the keg before filling the bottles the same kind of cheat?

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Hops, no problem. Like I said above, it's when "beer" becomes the ingredient that I personally have a problem. That doesn't mean I expect anyone else to feel the same way or follow my personal standards.

Bobby_M said:

Just knowing when a beer needs work is a killer skill for a homebrewer to have. Knowing how to fix it is even harder.

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Totally agree, but yet again, when that fix means adding another beer, it crosses the line for me.

Bobby_M said:

I'm just trying to show how hair-splitting your position is.

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Yeah, I guess it is splitting hairs, but we all have to set our own limits.

so adding more wort to the primary or secondary would be....?

AnOldUR said:

Hops, no problem. Like I said above, it's when "beer" becomes the ingredient that I personally have a problem

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Why? I can go through the style guidelines, and almost every single one of them has a commercial example listed that's blended. Almost every style.

That doesn't mean I expect anyone else to feel the same way or follow my personal standards.

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Clearly you do. You're saying we're being unethical by blending comp beers.

Synovia said:

The line that YOU have defined because you don't like something.

Saying that I think you're being ridiculous is not a personal attack. You've presented absolutely no reason why blending is "wrong" other than that you think its cheating.

How is adding a starter to wort not "using beer as an ingredient"?

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I've been trolled.

I'm not trolling you.

I'm trying to figure out where exactly this line you've drawn is.

Uh, oh. now we're starting to attack one another. I'm tapping out.
*leaves to go dilute his Kolsch by blending in some water*

http://iam.homebrewtalk.com/AnOldURI don't think we need to give the only guy defending (actively) that point of view the third degree. You can voice your arguments to the other point of view without directing it at someone.

ahem. I'd like some credit for playing Devils advocate as well...

DrDirt said:

ahem. I'd like some credit for playing Devils advocate as well...

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Banish ye demons henceforth!

Yeah, I voted that it was cheating, because I thought the OP meant "commercial" blending. I can't even use "It's Monday" as an excuse, today, so I guess it was just an error in reading comprehension.

Anyway, I'm about to enter my first competition. From what I've read about how blended beers are used in competition, I can see their value. Right now, though, where I'm at in my brewing "career" I'm not going to be blending for competitions, since I need to know what's going on with my unblended brews. I think my beer is okay, but by entering the recipes, "as is," I can get a BJCP certified opinion on what I'm actually tasting.

Once you have evolved your beer palate, so to speak, then I think you can enter territory where blending can be beneficial, and probably make some awesome brews!

Thanks to everyone who posted on this thread, as it brought up things I never would have thought of.

I'm late to this party, but I stopped in to see what all the fuss was about.

I still don't see the point of the disagreement, though.

Are any of you guys winos? I am. I love wine. Blending just is accepted with wines. Sometimes you get a vintage with lower sugar content, sometimes the grapes are more acidic, etc. Blending gives you control of the final product. It's not cheating, it's the norm.

If your beer is exactly according to style guidelines in all of the BJCP categories, and mixing two beers to get that end result is fine in my opinion.

I'm still trying to figure out why one could argue that it is cheating. It's allowed, examples of commercial styles include blended beer, and you made it all.
This is a pretty open and shut case.
The OP never mentioned using commercial beers in the blend and he never mentioned blending as a way to correct mistakes.

northernlad said:

. . . and he never mentioned blending as a way to correct mistakes.

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Quote from the OP:

Willie3 said:

If a brewer brews a beer to style and wins, is s/he a better brewer than someone who missed the mark, blends with another beer, and wins the category with the blended creation? Who do you consider to be the better brewer?

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Do you like the Lambic? Many of those are blended. Faro, Gueze, yup blended.

Budweiser = blended. In fact, the number of blended beers might surprise you.

Why do they blend? Not to fix a mistake but to ensure consistency from batch to batch.

We beer drinkers are a fickle bunch with well trained palates possessing amazing taste memories. Many of us can taste the difference between batches and know that from bottle to bottle the beer is different. Blending mitigates that and the inevitable "My favorite beer has changed" BS.

I have not made a great beer yet. I have made mediocre ones. Now, if I take a couple of my mediocre ones, blend them together and make a fantastic one, that does not make me a good brewer worthy of winning a competition.... It merely proves that even a blind squirrel can find a nut once in a while.

The whole argument about what commercial brewers do is not even a realistic argument. Commercial brewers are doing to it sell a product, not to win a HOMEbrewer competition. I equally find the whole argument about "I still brewed the beer" without merit. If you have two great recipes that individually are not winners but together are, then make a new recipe and brew that- if the new recipe is a winner, then fine. I'm fine with the whole aspect of late adding hops, but my point is that when you start mixing two beers together because you didn't make one decent beer to style, you are not a winner- just a blender.

Red herring. Has anyone ever taken two ****ty brews and made them into one good beer?

If you take two mediocre malts and blend them together...
If you take a mediocre hop bill and add another...

Commercial brewers have this thing called the GABF and the World Beer Festival where they try to win. Many of those beers are marginal sellers. Some sell them just so that they can legally compete.

If you have two great recipes that individually are not winners but together are, then make a new recipe and brew that

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This argument makes no sense. Please share your recipe for a bourbon oaked porter that doesn't involve blending.

the_bird said:

Red herring. Has anyone ever taken two ****ty brews and made them into one good beer?

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I drank two BMCs, urinated, flushed it down the septic and used 150' of dirt to filter that used BMC into the local watershed.

I then pumped said filtered water up 150' and used it to brew beer. It came out fairly well.