Maris Otter Malt (vs 2-Row)

Okay, I've been doing a tremendous amount of research lately in anticipation of my first AG brew and have been checking into sources of inexpensive base grains. About the best I can do is for 2-row $1.27/pound (delivered) from Northern brewer. I was just at my LHBS today and they have 10# bags of Marris Otter malt for $7.99 so after tax (1% on food!) I'm looking at $8.07 per ten pound bag. I asked and these were 6 weeks old. So three questions:

1) Is 6 weeks too long for base grains to sit around in the LHBS?
2) Can I substitute Marris Otter for 2-row or are they just totally different (it seems from my research that they are both pale malts and should be interchangeable but its easier to ask than drink 2 gallons of so-so brew)?
3) And finally, can I use Maris Otter malt in place of 2-row or should I make adjustments based on color, diastatic power, etc.?

I just had my first few glasses of barleywine with lunch and man oh man is that stuff good and different than beer!

Thanks,
ChemE

Maris Otter is a type of 2-row barley malt: typically thought of as English style. I notice my LHBS stocks American (Briess) 2-row, Maris Otter, and another Belgian 2-row. Guess it depends on what style of beer that you're looking for....Maris is earthier compared to an American 2-row. Would certainly be appropriate for any British style beer, and can be used for German or American recipes as well.

As for age: I wouldn't think several weeks being at a store does anything to grain: as long as its being stored alright, I thought grain had a pretty good shelf life.

Good deal, buy as much as you can use.
As long as it is uncrushed and stored in good conditions the malt should be good for about a year.
Maris Otter is a premium 2-row malt. Usually quite a bit more expensive than regular 2-row. It will add a fuller flavor with some biscuitness to the beer. You should be able to use it where ever you would use 2-row. However it is slightly darker and will produce a darker and more flavorful beer all else being equal. Also is does not have quite a much enzymes so you may have problems with high adjunct beers (> 40% flaked grains).

Craig

I use Maris Otter for my Irish Red and for my Pale Ale. It's very malty and tasty, similar to using lightly toasted 2-row plus some biscuit malt.

- Eric

I use MO for my base for everything.

I keep two types of bulk grain in my brewhouse. Crisp Maris Otter and Dingemans Belgian Pils. I make everything with those two.

Maris Otter is a fine malt

Chimone said:

I keep two types of bulk grain in my brewhouse. Crisp Maris Otter and Dingemans Belgian Pils. I make everything with those two.

Maris Otter is a fine malt

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How interesting. Dingemans Belgian Pils was another bag I spotted there (believe I saw 4 or 5) and they are also $7.99 for 10#. I sure do appreciate all the help.

Chimone said:

Maris Otter is a fine malt

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indeed it is!

Can Maris Otter be substituted for regular ol' 2-row? Depends. Maris Otter is very distinct, compared to, say, Briess 2-row 'Brewer's Malt'. American 2-row is very neutral, and will not have a significant flavor or color impact on the finished beer. Maris Otter has a distinctly crackery, malty flavor.

If you planning to compete with, say, an American Amber Ale made with Maris Otter, you might get dinged on flavor, because it'll throw the flavor off. But if you're making Ordinary Bitter, it's the bomb!

Just sayin'.

Bob

Would Maris Otter be a good grain for a UK-flavored SMaSH... say with some Yakima Goldings?

Delicious SMaSH idea, jpsloan. I give it ten thumbs up. Brew it, and brew it fast. You won't be disappointed.

Dingemans Belgian Pils was another bag I spotted there (believe I saw 4 or 5) and they are also $7.99 for 10#.

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I wish I had your LHBS's prices! I'm paying $17.50 for 10# of MO or Pils here. Even domestic 2-Row is $15 for 10#. Makes for an EXPENSIVE IIPA or Barleywine.

So if I'm using Briess 2-row LME (American), would it always be a good idea to add some biscuit or victory to my IPA and ESB recipes? Do American IPAs usually us MO?

Chriso said:

Delicious SMaSH idea, jpsloan. I give it ten thumbs up. Brew it, and brew it fast. You won't be disappointed.

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I'll line that sucker up right after I give Biermuncher's OktoberFast Ale a kick in the as$.! :rockin:

Where in Illinois are you located or better yet, what HBS is this? $7.99 for 10 lbs of MO is a great price.

jpsloan said:

I'll line that sucker up right after I give Biermuncher's OktoberFast Ale a kick in the as$.! :rockin:

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Sweet, that's my brew for this Saturday too!

Teacher said:

So if I'm using Briess 2-row LME (American), would it always be a good idea to add some biscuit or victory to my IPA and ESB recipes? Do American IPAs usually us MO?

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Okay, here it is in a nutshell:

If you're brewing an American style, use American ingredients.

If you're brewing an English style, use English ingredients.

If you're brewing a Belgian style, use Belgian ingredients.

Ad nauseum.

Why try to approximate (or half-ass) your way into something when a better ingredient or combination of ingredients is readily available?

If you're using Briess LME to make an English style, it might be worthwhile to add just a hint of biscuit, say a couple of ounces.

If I were brewing an American IPA, I'd use American 2-row, some American Munich, some American 40L crystal, American "C" hops, and call it a day.

Cheers,

Bob

BobNQ3X said:

Why try to approximate (or half-ass) your way into something when a better ingredient or combination of ingredients is readily available?

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Because I don't do all-grain, and I've never seen MO extract. The second half of your post answered my question, though.

If you haven't seen it, you haven't looked. There are more than a few outlets which sell Maris Otter extract. John Bull make it in tins, though I hear that company is closing, which are widely available in homebrew shops. http://morebeer.com/ sell Maris Otter extract in bulk liquid form.

[ame]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=maris+otter+extract&btnG=Google+Search[/ame]

Cheers,

Bob

Where does morebeer carry MO in LME? I only found it in one kit. They describe their Briess LME as being one of the lightest available, which certainly doesn't sound like MO to me.

Teacher said:

Where does morebeer carry MO in LME? I only found it in one kit. They describe their Briess LME as being one of the lightest available, which certainly doesn't sound like MO to me.

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This is me with egg on my face! I sincerely apologize. They used to carry MO extract.

William's have it, and if your LHBS can get John Bull, it can come in tins.

Cheers,

Bob

What is the expected conversion of sugars expected for Maris Otter? I was told at the LHBS that I should look for 1lb/gal = 1.028 and so 10lbs per batch would get me 1.056. Is that just a average on English pale malts or is that for Maris Otter?

BobNQ3X said:

Okay, here it is in a nutshell:

If you're brewing an American style, use American ingredients.

If you're brewing an English style, use English ingredients.

If you're brewing a Belgian style, use Belgian ingredients.

Ad nauseum.

Why try to approximate (or half-ass) your way into something when a better ingredient or combination of ingredients is readily available?

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This is true if you are trying to replicate a beer or trying your best to fit a style. However if you just want to make a tasty IPA then MO is an excellent base grain.

It is much much cheaper for me to buy a 55# bag of base malt and work my recipes from that. So I often make beers with nontraditional combinations. They are still really good even if they don't quite fit the mold.
In which case if you are using US 2-row and want to make a beer closer to an English style, a little Victory can improve the flavor.
If you are making an American Pale with MO then you will have something with more malt flavor than expected so reduce or drop any Munich or Victory in the recipe.

Craig

Matt Up North said:

What is the expected conversion of sugars expected for Maris Otter? I was told at the LHBS that I should look for 1lb/gal = 1.028 and so 10lbs per batch would get me 1.056. Is that just a average on English pale malts or is that for Maris Otter?

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I'd suggest downloading one of the brewing software packages such as BeerSmith. BeerSmith gives 1.038 as the potential for Marris Otter although I'm sure this would very slightly between maltsers. However, using 1.028 x 10 lbs to come up with 1.056 would assume 100% efficiency so perhaps your LHBS factored an assumed efficiency into their calculation of 1.028 (i.e. 75% efficiency for 1.037 would give you 1.056 for 10 lbs in a 5 gallon batch).

Matt Up North said:

What is the expected conversion of sugars expected for Maris Otter? I was told at the LHBS that I should look for 1lb/gal = 1.028 and so 10lbs per batch would get me 1.056. Is that just a average on English pale malts or is that for Maris Otter?

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BeerSmith shows Maris Otter's Potential Yield at 1.038. Don't know what that means though.

In BeerSmith, 10 lbs Maris Otter at 70% eff gives me 1.053. Pale 2-Row US gives me 1.051, Munich Malt gives me 1.052 and Pilsner 2-Row German gives me 1.052. All base malts should be right in that range.

Edit: Heh, JF and I were doing the same math!

both jfrizzel and Chriso, thanks. I don't see myself getting Beersmith any time soon as I am still learning, I just got a bag of malt and couldn't find the info on the net. When I get some odd 15 brews under the belt I will look at such programs. So then here is my thinking. I will use the 10lbs per 5gal the first time and if I get a good conversion I might back down on weight as I am looking for about 4.5-5%. Make it a good drinking porter, not too heavy. I just hope that I get a good conversion. Doing the brew manana so I guess that I could inform you how it goes and get some pointers back.

Use a free one like Suds in the meantime. Or you can use Beer Tools online for free, you just have to register an account. Software is a must have. Otherwise you find yourself scribbling formulas all over the place, and in the process of RDWHAHB'ing, transposing numbers that result in big mistakes.

Ditto ^^^^^

Download a free trial of BeerSmith or Promash or one of the ones Chriso mentioned for now, but get something so you have a way to figure out your temperatures, gravities and IBUs. The software is a great learning tool, especially in the beginning where you are now.

jfrizzell said:

Where in Illinois are you located or better yet, what HBS is this? $7.99 for 10 lbs of MO is a great price.

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Champaign Urbana. My LHBS is Friar Tuck.

ChemE...Where are you at in Illinois? There is a great source for Bulk grains in the St. Louis area. 55# sacks of Maris Otter go for around $.69/lb. Base malts are only sold by the 55# sack though. Specialty grains are available in 5/10/20# quantities. Let me know if you need the contact info.

Kevin Dean said:

I use MO for my base for everything.

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+1. It's a nice-a.

Makes me think Ed's Haus Pale Ale could be tasty with Marris Otter, my wife and I love the malty/biscuity brews.

Skipstr21 said:

ChemE...Where are you at in Illinois? There is a great source for Bulk grains in the St. Louis area. 55# sacks of Maris Otter go for around $.69/lb. Base malts are only sold by the 55# sack though. Specialty grains are available in 5/10/20# quantities. Let me know if you need the contact info.

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Chambana is a 2.5 hour drive from St. Louis so the savings of $0.12/lb would be consumed many times over in gas. Although, I could probably concoct a reason to drive down there for work. Would you mind PM'ing me the contact info?

On another note I'm very pleased to see how popular MO malt is and especially all the comments that it is people's only base malt. Makes me feel much better about brewing with it as my base malt especially given that I can get it locally so cheaply.

Does anyone know how Briess Pale Ale Malt compares to regular 2-row and MO? I bought a 50# bag thinking it was base 2-row.

I do know it is slightly kilned and has a less enzymes than 2-row, and has a SG of only 1.034. Briess also describes it as malty.

http://www.briess.com/pdf/Malthouse...ale Ale Malt WK/PIS BREW Pale Ale Malt WK.pdf

I was wondering where its malty characteristics lie in comparison to MO.

I found this thread searching for MO discussions. I bottled my first AG batch last night. It was a MO Citra SMaSH. I was shocked at the big flavor MO has. Definatley biscuity and tasty.I am anxious to see how it turns out after some time in a bottle.

That is a great deal on MO. To me there is a big difference between MO and American 2-row. MO has a fuller taste that is slightly biscuit-like. For my beers, if its an American style, I use American 2-Row, for English styles, MO. A blend of the two is very nice for a little complexity in something like a lighter ale or APA.

Is MO good for dark german beers or munich?

I wouldn't use MO in a German beer, dark or otherwise. The flavor is "bready", "crackery", instead of the solid, obvious malt you need. If you're looking for a malt-forward German style beer, opt instead for Vienna or Munich as your base malt, or a mix of either and Pils malt.

Cheers!

Bob

I'm about to use MO for a SMaSH recipe. 12# of MO and 2 oz of Hallertauer. I'm figuring an oz for 60 min., .5oz for 30, .5oz for flameout. I'm really looking forward to making this! I've never made a "simple" beer before and this should be perfect for the end of summer/transition into fall beers.

It's all about profile and how neurotic you want to get.... as stated above Marris otter is a uk base grain that has a bit more malty biscuity taste. Depending on the style you are brewing this may or may not be appropriate you have to decide as the brewer what flavor profile best suits your taste and style description. As far as the date of packaging you are golden that is fine at 1.5 months old I buy alot of weyermanns pils and I know that has a shelf life of 18 months. Good luck on your first all grain let us know how it turns out.

P.s. Barleywine is beer ..... the beer of the Gods.

Brought back from the dead twice!