Primary > Secondary

brloomis said:

I'd like to try this. Do you have to add yeast at bottling time, or is there enough left to carbonate the bottles?

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That’s a good question I’m trying to answer as we speak with my mini experiment.

I believe there is adequate yeast in suspension unless you force filter or kill off the yeast with Camden tablets. The fact that I still have yeast sediment in my kegs would bear this out.

My experiment won’t be done for a few more weeks…but I’ll post when ready.

If it were me, I'd go for it.

BierMuncher said:

That’s a good question I’m trying to answer as we speak with my mini experiment.

I believe there is adequate yeast in suspension unless you force filter or kill off the yeast with Camden tablets. The fact that I still have yeast sediment in my kegs would bear this out.

My experiment won’t be done for a few more weeks…but I’ll post when ready.

If it were me, I'd go for it.

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Thanks, I saw that post. Maybe I'll split a batch into two secondaries, add gelatin to one of them, and see how the final bottles compare. Of course, that means I'll have to go buy at least one more secondary...

I still contend that there is nothing magical about a secondary that make the yeast want to floc out. Think about this for a second. You have a relatively dense layer, say 1" thick, at the bottom of your primary. It's not like this layer is positively charged and bouncing new yeast off that would otherwise settle down. If yeast continues to stay suspended, it's more likely that it's still working to condition the beer and I'd say that's a good thing.

The only caveat is that you have to be really careful when you rack out of primary because the two-stage racking you get with using a secondary gives you one extra opportunity to avoid sucking trub.

Bobby_M said:

I still contend that there is nothing magical about a secondary that make the yeast want to floc out. Think about this for a second. You have a relatively dense layer, say 1" thick, at the bottom of your primary...

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I don’t know. Even before I started using gelatin, it seemed that following a 7-day primary, within an hour or two of racking to a secondary there was a 1/8 inch layer of sediment on the bottom. Now with the gelatin, it’s only about 15 minutes before there is a distinct layer of sediment is noticeable. Maybe these were the Hatfield yeast refusing to associate with the McCoy yeast in the primary.

Bobby_M said:

I still contend that there is nothing magical about a secondary that make the yeast want to floc out...

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You are probably right that there isn't anything magical about the secondary container itself, but maybe the racking process is what causes the effect. I did a quick search on yeast flocculance in an electronic database of biology journals I have access to through my work. A few of the articles I have found indicate that disturbance of the physical medium can cause yeast to flocculate and fall out of suspension. Racking seems like a disturbance of the physical medium to me.

Other factors that influence flocculation include temperature, pH, oxygen and nitrogen content, availability of nutrients, age and size of the cells, generation number, method of storage, pitching rate, and aeration. Flocculation is highly strain dependent, poorly understood, and hard to predict.

If I get a chance, I'll read some of these articles more closely. They are pretty technical, so I could be wrong about this.

Bobby_M said:

I still contend that there is nothing magical about a secondary that make the yeast want to floc out.

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Here are a few pics of my secondary with gelatin only 24 hours in.

I guess one of the takeaways at least is the fact that gelatin does aid in faster clearing and if you want to partake, it's best to do so in secondary. My real concern with racking directly on gelatin in secondary is that force floc'ing (another one for the innuendo list) is probably negatively affecting the conditioning aspect of the secondary. I'd probably want to let it sit in primary for at least 2 weeks (or a good week after active fermentation ends) before doing this. You need yeast for conditioning.

Just the very act of racking to secondary, even sans gelatin, is why Jamil Z thinks a lot of beers don't reach their full potential. You're taking away the beer making machines before they're done.

Bobby_M said:

I guess one of the takeaways at least is the fact that gelatin does aid in faster clearing and if you want to partake, it's best to do so in secondary. My real concern with racking directly on gelatin in secondary is that force floc'ing (another one for the innuendo list) is probably negatively affecting the conditioning aspect of the secondary. I'd probably want to let it sit in primary for at least 2 weeks (or a good week after active fermentation ends) before doing this. You need yeast for conditioning.

Just the very act of racking to secondary, even sans gelatin, is why Jamil Z thinks a lot of beers don't reach their full potential. You're taking away the beer making machines before they're done.

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True. I gotta quit drinking so fast. :cross:

I guess the fact that most my brews are lighter ABV, session ales and simpler grain bills, maybe I'm not sacrificing as much as a more complex, bigger beers that really need time to meld and mellow.

Might be a good poll discussion: Would you consider yourself (generally) a quick draw when it comes to brewing (3 weeks or less from boil to tap) or more of a tortoise (measure my brew in months...not weeks)?

Bobby_M said:

Just the very act of racking to secondary, even sans gelatin, is why Jamil Z thinks a lot of beers don't reach their full potential. You're taking away the beer making machines before they're done.

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I couldn't agree more. My beers improved hugely in every way when I stopped using secondaries. I only ever use one now if I am dry hopping, but even so if I don't intend to use the yeast cake I might just dry hop in the primary.

I don't touch my beer for at least three weeks now, sometimes four - when the beer is clear and the yeast have all flocculated.

Atomic said:

Hey everyone i just stumbled on to this website today and now wish i would have found it sooner. I just got a home brew kit for christmas and was so excited to get started i only went by the directions that came with the kit. I had muntons pre-hopped nut brown ale and i started fermenting in the bucket because my glass carboy was missing the stopper but i was fine with that because the instructions told me to place in primary until the airlock bubbles once a minute and then rack to secondary which empties my bucket so i can prepare for bottling. So 7 days in the primary and i got a stopper for my carboy the airlock slowed to the 1 burp a minute so i sanitized everything and gently racked to my carboy. MY question now being is it has been sitting in the carboy for about 48 hours and the airlock is bubbling like once every 2 minutes or longer is this normal? also when i racked there was no foam in the bucket also there is none in the carboy maybe a few bubbles. but it smelled like beer so i think im ok

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BierMuncher said:

Here are a few pics of my secondary with gelatin only 24 hours in.

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for those who do secondary, how much do you usually lose during the transfer? more than a gallon? i just racked to a secondary for the first time and lost a good bit. it looks like atleast a gallon, kinda bummed about it...any tips so that this doesn't happen again? i was using an auto-siphon.

anyone got an idea?

If your primary is allowed to rest long enough...you should lose maybe one inch or so to trub. Since you're racking to a secondary and using gelatin...you can be a bit more aggressive in sucking up a bit of "muck" because it will quickly fall out in the second tank.

Bosium said:

I couldn't agree more. My beers improved hugely in every way when I stopped using secondaries. I only ever use one now if I am dry hopping, but even so if I don't intend to use the yeast cake I might just dry hop in the primary.

I don't touch my beer for at least three weeks now, sometimes four - when the beer is clear and the yeast have all flocculated.

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I can see how this would work out well for low to med ABV beers. How about the ones that are a little higher in gravity? Would a person still be able to let a 1.080 beer sit in the primary for four weeks and then bottle/keg and be all right?

cooper said:

I can see how this would work out well for low to med ABV beers. How about the ones that are a little higher in gravity? Would a person still be able to let a 1.080 beer sit in the primary for four weeks and then bottle/keg and be all right?

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I've been doing it all the time for the last 2-3 years, and never had a problem. Even did it with my 1.090 Belgian strong.

What about doing a long primary (3-4 weeks, so that the FG has been stable for at least a week) followed by a short secondary for clearing? I've had good results doing this but I'm wondering if there is something magical about not using a secondary at all.

EvilGnome6 said:

What about doing a long primary (3-4 weeks, so that the FG has been stable for at least a week) followed by a short secondary for clearing? I've had good results doing this but I'm wondering if there is something magical about not using a secondary at all.

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I've never seen the need to secondary at all after four weeks in primary. That's the point of doing it, to skip using a primary.

And the end of the month I have a nice compacted yeast cake at the bottom, as well as crystal clear, and crisp tasting beer. I have even judges note the clarity in several beers, over the years.

Revvy said:

I've been doing it all the time for the last 2-3 years, and never had a problem. Even did it with my 1.090 Belgian strong.

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Hell yeah! That's great news to me too cause the less chance that I have of messing something up the better I feel about it. I'm always meticulous in my sanitation but there's still always that little worry in the back of your mind about some other little bug getting in there and having their way with my beautiful wort before the yeasties do.

I'm definitely game about giving it a shot and seeing what happens. Although I'm worried about what will happen that might change the flavor when I don't condition in the secondary for a few months... I'll just have to give it a shot and if I like it then I'll stick to it... it's my beer anyway and my opinion is all that really matters right?

I plan on trying not bothering with the secondary. My only concern would be that I would want to reuse the yeast cake cause I don't feel like spending 7 bucks for new yeast. And I'm too lazy to clean the yeast myself and then make a starter. I currently have a Belgian going in the primary so would it be ok to throw my next Belgian wort onto that cake, trub and all. I would guess that I could get away with it one time but the trub would eventually start building on itself and just get to thick.
What if you dry hopped your primary? Could you reuse the yeast cake then if you were making a similiar beer the next time?

camneel83 said:

I plan on trying not bothering with the secondary. My only concern would be that I would want to reuse the yeast cake cause I don't feel like spending 7 bucks for new yeast. And I'm too lazy to clean the yeast myself and then make a starter. I currently have a Belgian going in the primary so would it be ok to throw my next Belgian wort onto that cake, trub and all. I would guess that I could get away with it one time but the trub would eventually start building on itself and just get to thick.
What if you dry hopped your primary? Could you reuse the yeast cake then if you were making a similiar beer the next time?

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Well despite your lazyness it would be better for your yeast if you washed it and made a starter....it would help "De-stress" the yeast after doing your bidding dilligantly. Having said that, I have, once or twice pitched onto a month in primary cake with no problems...I did my belgian on top of my Saison cake (which for the saison I had maintained an 80+ degree fermentation for the first 72 hours) and the wit after turned out to be one of my best tasting beers ever.

i leave my beer in the primary only for 3 weeks and it comes out clear. even a pumpkin ale came out clear.

BierMuncher said:

That sounds good to me too. I got two bottles of gelatin from two different sources. One suggested ½ teaspoon for every gallon of beer (2.5 for a five gallon batch) and the other just said one teaspoon for a five gallon batch.

I just settled on two teaspoons for my beer. I think the gelatin will accomplish the same thing, just at different rates, depending on the amount used.


You’ll also be surprised how non-homebrew drinkers are much more open to trying your beer when you pour them a crystal clear draft.

For me, a major upside to secondaries is time. I can go from brew day to tapping my keg in as little as 3 weeks on my APA’s and haus ales.

5 days primary
5 days secondary with gelatin (is usually cleared out in 3-4 days)
Keg, chill and carb at 13 PSI for 10 days

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I have a milk stout that has been in primary for one day. I plan on going to secondary, but when do I go to secondary? is it based on days or when fermentation stops and your gravity is reached?

It sounds like there is a real debate about secondary fermentation. I have very limited space and equipment. If I were to do it, I would poor the wort into a sanitized bucket, clean out my primary, and poor the wort back as was previously suggested by Dan, if I read it right.
Better off not bothering??
Also, if I am going to dry hop using only a primary, do I just open it up in about 10 days, drop in the hops and close it back up for another 10 days? I’m just reluctant to open up the fermenter any time and risk contamination.

I got a concern. So I had my milk stout in primary for 9 days the gravity went from 1.061 to 1.024 i checked it three days in a row didnt drop any more, so i transferred it to my 5gal carboy. Are you supposed to transfer before fermentation in done or after. I was concerned because i heard that since it was done fermenting that the small air space in my carboy would be filled with o2 instead of co2. Or am i ok?