'Green Beer' from rainwater
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jgln
Well-Known Member
Kind of sounds like a gimmick. I mean ok so it is filtered rainwater. Water from the ground is filtered rainwater too. I wonder how long it takes to collect all that water?
I don't know what the various filters do. Some might add salt. I would get it more, if it were a place like the mountains, but in a city... All of that pollution is coming down in the rain. I don't know... Maybe I'll go there and try one of their brews.
jds
Well-Known Member
Hey, all my beer comes from rainwater too!
In fact, ALL beer comes from rainwater. You know those deep aquifers? yeah, that was once rainwater too.
I smell a gimmick.
In fact, ALL beer comes from rainwater. You know those deep aquifers? yeah, that was once rainwater too.
I smell a gimmick.
jgln
Well-Known Member
I think they would need a large collection surface in order to collect enough rain and that surface would need to be exposed, so my question is how clean is that surface? I mean you got dead bugs, live bugs, bird poop, dead birds, bird feathers and just about anything else you can imagine. At least the water in the ground in filtered by soil. I would have to see and understand how they do it before I would drink it. If they filter it anyway what is the sense?
frolickingmonkey
Well-Known Member
The sense in using rainwater is that its not coming from the aquifer. In some places, including my former home in Moscow, Idaho, the aquifer level is dropping at an alarming rate (1-2 feet per year). This being our only source of water in the area, and not knowing how deep the aquifer actually goes, the concern was that if we continued to use groundwater at the same or greater rate, we may run out. Utilizing rainwater, even just for irrigating your garden or lawn, can offset your water bill and consumption significantly (lots of research has been done on this), and on this larger scale can be even more significant. As for how much area is needed to produce enough water to brew? Well, you may be surprised.
Collection Area (sq. ft) x Rainfall (in/yr.) / 12 (in/ft) = Cubic Feet of Water/Year
Cubic Feet/Year x 7.43 (Gallons/Cubic Foot) = Gallons/Year
So, working with the example of Five Seasons Brewery in Atlanta, where average annual rainfall is 50 in/yr., a 500 sq. ft roof will produce 2,083 Cubic Feet or 15,477 Gallons of water per year.
So, if we consider brewing at the 7bbl level (217 gal.), and that it takes roughly 5 times that amount of water to produce the beer (mash, evap, cooling, cleaning, etc), that's 1085 gal. per batch. That means from the 15,477 gal. collected, you could brew 14, 7bbl batches of beer, and still have a few hundred gallons leftover. This water is FREE (it just falls from the sky!) so think about how much money would be saved by the brewery, and how quickly they would pay for the tanks, pipe, filters and other equipment for this setup. Also consider how much water was not pumped out of the aquifer. And remember, this is with only 500 sq. ft. of roof! It's a wonder to me that more people don't collect and use rainwater...
And, to give you an idea of how much volume 15,000 gallons is, here's a visual aid. Each tank can hold 15,000 gallons. Notice the guy standing between the two tanks to give you a sense of scale.
Collection Area (sq. ft) x Rainfall (in/yr.) / 12 (in/ft) = Cubic Feet of Water/Year
Cubic Feet/Year x 7.43 (Gallons/Cubic Foot) = Gallons/Year
So, working with the example of Five Seasons Brewery in Atlanta, where average annual rainfall is 50 in/yr., a 500 sq. ft roof will produce 2,083 Cubic Feet or 15,477 Gallons of water per year.
So, if we consider brewing at the 7bbl level (217 gal.), and that it takes roughly 5 times that amount of water to produce the beer (mash, evap, cooling, cleaning, etc), that's 1085 gal. per batch. That means from the 15,477 gal. collected, you could brew 14, 7bbl batches of beer, and still have a few hundred gallons leftover. This water is FREE (it just falls from the sky!) so think about how much money would be saved by the brewery, and how quickly they would pay for the tanks, pipe, filters and other equipment for this setup. Also consider how much water was not pumped out of the aquifer. And remember, this is with only 500 sq. ft. of roof! It's a wonder to me that more people don't collect and use rainwater...
And, to give you an idea of how much volume 15,000 gallons is, here's a visual aid. Each tank can hold 15,000 gallons. Notice the guy standing between the two tanks to give you a sense of scale.
Ewalk02
Well-Known Member
So let me get this straight, in order to not draw down the aquifer you are going to cut off the feed to it....sounds a little asinine to me. I think I'm going to have to dump 15,477 gallons out of my faucet each year just to offset this ******* who is cutting off the aquifers source. Its all a huge circle, this "Green" beer is probably no less environmentally harmful that any other beer. What about all the filtering that has to be done to this rainwater, something tells me they are probably using the oh so bad coal fired energy to power the pumps. This is whole thing is just a marketing ploy....I'm sure it probably worked out pretty good too.
justflow1983
Well-Known Member
Much of the rainwater gets used in other ways before it makes it to the aquifer. Aquifers are generated as the storage of extra water not used immediately in the environment over the course of many years. It is the water that was not drank by animals, exhaled by trees, absorbed by the soil, or evaporated from puddles into the air, and is a sort of storage bank of all the remainders. By pumping up water from the aquifer you are tapping into an extra reserve of water to the system, but by using rainwater you are using the raw source before it gets reduced, which is actually much easier for the surrounding system to compensate for (since most of the rain makes it to the ground anyway). Also, reducing aquifers in coastal areas negatively pressurizes the groundwater, encouraging infiltration by seawater which makes the entire aquifer useless.
The rainwater can also be filtered fairly easily and naturally. A small particulate filter and minor chemical treatment are all that is needed generally to make it potable, although there are plenty of other available methods.
Depending on your climate it could be very green or not green at all. However, as a means of combating aquifer depletion it is definitely a legitimate and effective method.
rico567
Well-Known Member
There's a huge amount of faddism and "what's happen' now" in all the "green" hype. Normally, one of Sturgeon's Laws* is a good rule of thumb. In this case, read "Ignore nearly everything not empirically demonstrable."
*the one that states "Ninety percent of everything is crud."
*the one that states "Ninety percent of everything is crud."
justflow1983
Well-Known Member
As someone who works in the apparently "fad" industry, my main motivation is that it makes sense to cause as little harm as you have to, in the end if you're wrong you didn't do any damage and in my case usually saved my clients a pile of money. If the jury's out on the long term effects of aquifer depletion and you can avoid depleting it, why not just get it from the rain.
The aquifer issue is backed up by a significant amount of hydrological data as its been studied extensively for agriculture. It also totally sucks when you're local aquifer hits bottom regardless of the long term effects.
I'm an architect, and I've seen a lot of hard data on the results of bad wastewater management (in my case from roofs and parking lots) so I'm always up for a better use of what would usually just end up messing up the local river system.
The aquifer issue is backed up by a significant amount of hydrological data as its been studied extensively for agriculture. It also totally sucks when you're local aquifer hits bottom regardless of the long term effects.
I'm an architect, and I've seen a lot of hard data on the results of bad wastewater management (in my case from roofs and parking lots) so I'm always up for a better use of what would usually just end up messing up the local river system.
Modiano
Member
i don't consider rain clouds above a major city such as atlanta to be "green"
justflow1983
Well-Known Member
jgln
Well-Known Member
The human body is about 60% water. I wonder what % impact that has on where water storage is redirected over history as populations increase? Far out thought I know.
Austin_
Well-Known Member
I couldn't have said it better myself. Glad another landscape architect could come in and explain some things.
There's a flaw in that argument. When you pour water down the drain in a lot cases it doesn't recharge the aquifer. If you're on a septic system, then yeah, but if you are hooked up to a city sewer system then the water you pour down the drain gets dumped in to rivers and flows out of the aquifer recharge zones.
Also look at it from a different point of view. Part of the problem with development is the increase of impervious cover. This in turn cause a larger portion of water to flow quicker. Flash flooding and erosion soon become a major problem, not to mention all the pollutants in that water. Part of the idea of low-impact development is to slow the time of concentration to the destination water body. A normal storm sewer system will collect the water from a site and take it off site as quickly as possible. Let's just say for example our time of concentration is 40 minutes for a typical site. More progressive systems will slow that water down either using vegetation and soil or will harvest it and slowly release it back in to the system via irrigation or gray water systems. Time of concentration in these systems can be in the order of hours and days, thus reducing flooding and nutrient load.
You can almost say in a sense that this brewery is increasing the time of concentration for their site. Instead of it all flowing off and in to the nearest river within minutes, it is now slowed and passed through the brewing process and then our urinary processes. Suddenly the volume from one rain storm is slowly released back in to the environment over the course of several months.
So I think I'll do my part and drink this beer and when I have to pee I'll walk out my back door and take a leak. "I promise, Officer, I'm just recharging the aquifer."
justflow1983
Well-Known Member
Also add in the costs we all pay due to bad stormwater management. When riverbanks erode, it causes damage to our human infrastructure that we all pay for through taxes needed to carry out repairs. By redirecting it to something more useful they've saved the Atlanta taxpayers some [admittedly tiny] amount of money.
I still don't think I'd want big city rain in my beer, but yea it's definitely got some green credentials. The clouds are probably fine, but the raindrops wash out the air on their way down.
I still don't think I'd want big city rain in my beer, but yea it's definitely got some green credentials. The clouds are probably fine, but the raindrops wash out the air on their way down.
jgln
Well-Known Member
But I believe rivers, lakes and reservoirs are also major sources of drinking water so on the other side of the argument that water he dumps down the drain eventually ends up feeding those water supplies.
springer
Well-Known Member
A lot of places its illegal to use rain water. I think someone on this site had to remove a rain barrel from his house. I wouldn't use rain water from a large city anyways we get acid rain here and its killing off a lot of pine trees. I bet they use coal is some of the generating plants around Atlanta like here.
I am sure the filtration takes care of any thing in the water but the idea of those flying rats doing their business on the rooftops and then they collect the water ? No thanks.
And Atlanta like NY uses surface water for its drinking water so the aquifer argument is moot .
I am sure the filtration takes care of any thing in the water but the idea of those flying rats doing their business on the rooftops and then they collect the water ? No thanks.
And Atlanta like NY uses surface water for its drinking water so the aquifer argument is moot .
Austin_
Well-Known Member
That's only people hooked up to city water. That doesn't include rural areas that rely on wells connected to ground water.
jgln
Well-Known Member
I filter my pee to make my beer, want to try some? Talk about going green, I got those guys beat! I call it IPB. 
springer
Well-Known Member
well ya but were talking about a place in the city who is hooked up to city water his use has no effect on the aquifer outside the city.
i really think the guy is just trying to save money. Family friend lives in Atlanta and is charge for water coming in and the same water going out the sewer. So a brewpub is most likely paying out the ass as they use a lot of water.
jds
Well-Known Member
I filter my pee to make my beer, want to try some? Talk about going green, I got those guys beat! I call it IPB.
That's funny. I filter my beer to make my pee. Kidneys FTW. :rockin:
ballegre
Well-Known Member
I think using rain water still has green advantages. It's collected directly from the sky, delivered by gravity, and gently filtered on premise not heavily processed with all kinds of runoff trash, laced with toxic chemicals and pumped from miles away. And yes, the ultimate idea is to save money, I don't view as an ulterior motive.
I'm curious if it has any flavor differences (benefits?). Surface water and aquifer water has to have some mineral content that's not going to be present in rainwater. I know SWMBO has always told me that she used to love washing her hair over rain barrels on the farm - made hair soft and shiny - makes me want to go home and sniff her hair now
Wonder what it does to beer...
