Protein rest for Flaked Wheat?

I can't find any specific data on whether flaked wheat can benefit from a protein rest at 122F. It's specified in Jamil/Palmer's BCS and Palmer's How to brew lumps flaked wheat in with raw/unmalted wheat but then you read description of flaked wheat elsewhere and it's described as being pre-gelatinized for better enzyme access. What gives?

Witbier recipe?

I've done single infusion mashes and step mashes with flaked wheat in a Witbier recipe without any perceptible difference in either flavor or efficiency; raw unmalted wheat, on the other hand, definitely benefits from a brief 122° rest for 15 minutes then stepped up to the final rest for the remainder of the time.

Yeah, I'm specifically talking about the Wit from classic styles. He calls for a 122F rest for 15, then a slow ramp to 156F. There's no raw wheat in that, just pils, flaked wheat and a pound of flaked oats. I'm probably just going single sac rest at 152 and call it a day.

Everything I've read has said Flaked Wheat (and other flaked grains) is pre-gelatinized and that a protein rest is not necessary.

I just did a Wit with flaked wheat using a brew in a bag method - no rest - and it worked out fine. Everything I read about flaked wheat says you don't need the protien rest. That's only true for raw wheat but I think the flaked is somewhat converted.

Just listened to the "Brewstrong" podcast about enzymes, and Jamil/Palmer stated that flaked wheat is pre-gelatinized, so it's ready to be added right to the mash. The process of the wheat going through the rollers when its flaked adds enough heat and moisture to gelatinize the flakes. You should be good to just do your normal mash.

You can understand my confusion when a recipe in the book written by both guys in that same podcast recommends a protein rest. WTF.

Bobby_M said:

You can understand my confusion when a recipe in the book written by both guys in that same podcast recommends a protein rest. WTF.

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Yes, I've seen other contradictions from them in what they say in the book vs. on the podcasts. However, they are still among the best out there IMHO.

You do not need a protein rest but IMHO it will benefit the mash.

Flaked wheat is just rolled torrified wheat. Torrified wheat if hot air popped like popped rice cereal. While it is pre-gelatinized and does not need a cereal mash, it is the prime candidate for the benefits of a protein rest, just keep it under 20 minutes. I prefer to infuse to my sacc temps to make the jump quickly.

Bobby_M said:

Yeah, I'm specifically talking about the Wit from classic styles. He calls for a 122F rest for 15, then a slow ramp to 156F. There's no raw wheat in that, just pils, flaked wheat and a pound of flaked oats. I'm probably just going single sac rest at 152 and call it a day.

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I did a protein rest on this beer, came out great.

A lot of people seem to be getting confused between modification and gelatinization. Flaked grains are gelatinized but not modified, that is what a protein rest does. The protein rest will break down the proteins that bind up the starch (this normally happens in malting), this will make more starch available to be converted. This temp is in the active range for beta glucanase too, this activity will help keep the mash from being so thick, so your sparge will be easier. When I brewed this beer, I noticed of the course of the rest things got thinner.

I don't exactly remeber what Palmer said about protein rests in Brew Strong, but in how to brew:

This rest should only be used when using moderately-modified malts, or when using fully modified malts with a large proportion (>25%) of unmalted grain, e.g. flaked barley, wheat, rye, or oatmeal.

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EDIT: Also, I think their general stance on not using a protein rest is on 'regular' beers with all fully modified malt. I think this beer with 50% unmalted grain is an exception.

Bobby, did you do a single infusion with the flaked wheat for Jamil's wittebrew recipe? If so, what temperature and how did it turn out? I'm looking to make this as well and was curious if the protein rest was necessary.

The protein rest will help with the sparge and make for a clearer finished product. If it's less than 10% of the grain bill it will be of little use.

I've brewed it twice but did the protein rest with ramp up to sac rest both times. You should be able to acheive the rest with a thick mash, then addition of boiling water to the sac rest temp. You'd need some software or beer math to figure out the volumes though.

Bobby_M said:

I've brewed it twice but did the protein rest with ramp up to sac rest both times. You should be able to acheive the rest with a thick mash, then addition of boiling water to the sac rest temp. You'd need some software or beer math to figure out the volumes though.

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Can you elaborate on this process a little? I am looking at a doing a special alt that is 10-12% Weyermann Pale Wheat and I've been recommended to do a protein rest. I usually don't brew with wheat very often, so have never really felt the need.

Do you do the protein rest on only the wheat or on the entire grain bill and what volume of water do you use for this step? Seems to me if I go for the entire grain bill at 122-125 degrees at 1.25 qts/lb, then I won't have enough water left in the rest of the process to get temps to 154 for sacch rest and then 167 for sparge...