FAQ: Aluminum Pots for Boil Kettles?

Islandboy85 said:

Just out of curiosity, some of the turkey pots do seem thin. Has anyone ever thought about installing a doubler with the ball valve to give it some structure; or is this still unnecessary?

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What is a doubler?

Sorry, airplane mechanic speak for basically a large washer or second piece of material attached behind you primary structure (the pot in our case) to just beef it up for things like installing ball valves.

Since we're talking about different metals, does it REALLY matter if you use brass ball valves versus stainless?

Islandboy85 said:

Since we're talking about different metals, does it REALLY matter if you use brass ball valves versus stainless?

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Perhaps that is a good topic for a new thread?

well I'm almost ready to take the first plunge...

I walked in to the LHBS and started getting some additional equipment aside from what I already have and what I'm goin got pick up used on ebay. well after telling them I have a 30 qt alum kettle they convinced me to buy a SS one. I walked out with one thinking I could return if I didn't wanta to use it.

after reading the FAQ alum kettle vs SS post I have some additional questions

the store told me I couldn't use Star San on the alum but rather iodophur (sp?). is that true?

I also purchased one step cleanser but now know I shouldn't use that on the alum kettle.
-can I use cascade liquid dishwashing soap (for automatic dishwashers)?
-do I need to sanitize the kettle since it will have boiling water in it anyways?

if I can use cascade and not sanitize then I can use the one step for the rest of my equipment. but I wonder what this would doif I stuck my stirring spoon that was washed with one step into the alum kettle.

bottom line is I really want to keep this kettle and would rather not pay the extra $$ for the SS one.

sillyburt said:

the store told me I couldn't use Star San on the alum but rather iodophur (sp?). is that true?

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Why would you need to sanitize your kettle? You're going to be boiling things in it. You really don't need to do anything other than rinse it out. When something gets grubby on mine, I just soak it.


As to returning it, I'd think about it. I've got a 34 Qt, and I think its a tad small for full 5g batches. I'd love to have a 40qt instead. Its doable in the 34, but you gotta watch it like a hawk early on.

Why would you need to sanitize your kettle? You're going to be boiling things in it.

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I haven't done this before and that is why I asked. I didn't think so but I'm kinda like that big guy you see driving done the road in his harley chopper...one day he had to do it for the first time, well this is MY first time

I have an aluminum kettle. It works fine. As you now know, you don't have to sanitize it. I just rinse mine when I'm done. Maybe hit it with a paper towel if it's a little grungy.

Return the SS kettle, and spend the money on something else. Buy a wort chiller, a MLT, or more ingredients. If you're already doing extract batches, you need very little more equipment to do all grain. Buy some mesh bags and a small cooler, even if you don't convert it, you can still mash in it and pour the wort out. Check out Deathbrewers genius threads on PM's and AG. I just ordered a partial mash kit, an AG kit, and ingredients to do two of my own recipes, and I have no more equpment than I used for extract batches. I do feel the need to brag about the 50 foot roll of 3/8 inch copper tubing I scored for free from my job.....actually it cost me 4 beers, but the guy was drinking Bud, so it was cheap. Anyway, If you have a kettle already, don't waste y our money. There's plenty of other ways to spend your money than on ANOTHER kettle.

I boiled water for 1+ hour last night. the kettle (bayou classic) was like a polished aluminum color but now has a gray/milky white tint/covering to it, but I did not get any black colors. the polished look is gone on the inside

should I feel confident that it has the oxidized layer on it now? or should I try to boil again for another hour or more?

I as pretty happy with the fact that I could keep up a roiling boil without having to turn the electric stove all the way to high.

sillyburt said:

I boiled water for 1+ hour last night. the kettle (bayou classic) was like a polished aluminum color but now has a gray/milky white tint/covering to it, but I did not get any black colors. the polished look is gone on the inside

should I feel confident that it has the oxidized layer on it now? or should I try to boil again for another hour or more?

I as pretty happy with the fact that I could keep up a roiling boil without having to turn the electric stove all the way to high.

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your fine some pots never get black oxide I have one that is blackish and another that just turned dull like yours.

It's done....It doesn't EXACTLY look black, but it's a way of saying "much darker than how it started out".if you boiled water in it for an hour, the protective layer is there. now boil wort in it, make beer in it, or wash your weiner in it, you're gonna be doing it safelly.

now boil wort in it, make beer in it, or wash your weiner in it, you're gonna be doing it safelly.

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Awesome, thanks that's hilarious

Brewed 4.5 gal in my 6 gal thick gauge aluminum pot on the stove this Sun. Glad I didn't try for a full 5 gal because I didn't even think about the volume of the LME added which brought the level up pretty high in the pot (roughly the 5 gal level). Loved how quickly the water heated up in the aluminum and how it kept a nice even rolling boil with the wort for the hour. The immersion chiller seemed to work really well in the aluminum bringing the temp down from around 190' to 70 in a short time. The beer is fermenting nicely and I think that it will be a great batch. BTW - I think I purchased this at Sam's Club years ago and they tend to carry restaurant equipment for anyone in the market for aluminum pots. Montananady

What about anodized aluminum? I've looked it up a little bit, and the anodization is supposed to thicken the oxidized layer, which should be good, right?

I'm hoping to use a Calphalon stockpot we already own (an underused gift, seeing as we don't make stock or huge pots of soup), rather than buying a dedicated brew kettle.

Plus, I don't think it has a non-stick treatment, but if it did, would this be a problem? I don't plan to use any harsh cleaning or sanitizing solutions because everything in it will be brought to a boil.

Just wondering if anyone had any experience with this type of pot... Thanks!

Guys

I remembered that I have an antique (i.e., pre WWII) aluminum pressure canner. I'm planning on using is as my boil kettle until i get a turkey fryer because it is flat bottomed and i have damned glass stove top.

My concern is, that ther are some hard water deposits on the bottom that won't come off. It's currently soaking in vinegar but I don't think the water deposits are coming off. Should I sandpaper the deposits off, or just say to hell with it and brew on??

Ichthy said:

Guys

I remembered that I have an antique (i.e., pre WWII) aluminum pressure canner. I'm planning on using is as my boil kettle until i get a turkey fryer because it is flat bottomed and i have damned glass stove top.

My concern is, that ther are some hard water deposits on the bottom that won't come off. It's currently soaking in vinegar but I don't think the water deposits are coming off. Should I sandpaper the deposits off, or just say to hell with it and brew on??

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I say brew on!

Here is my question I hae a turkey fryer used once. Its 36 quarts would be OK to scrub it up and used it for Wort

Most definitely! My HLT has cooked a couple turkey dinners now. Just make sure to get any and all oil residue out and you'll be just fine.

Iron oxide is rust red/brown.
Copper oxide is green.
Nickel oxide is BLACK.
Aluminum oxide is dark gray.

For you guys just starting out brewing with little or no chemistry background, don't worry if your aluminum pot does not turn black on the inside. Actually, if it turns BLACK something is not right.

Ok... I have read the entire thread and I am new to this forum, so I have been biting my tongue. I can't bite it any longer.

Yesterday I did what any one of us could have done, and maybe we all should do... I did a Google search to get the latest info on the aluminum/Alzheimer's Disease link. Yes, there is a link.
Notice... I did not say that aluminum causes Alzheimer's Disease... I said that there is a link. The major part of the link is that aluminum is found in the brain cells of all three parts of the brain that are Alzheimer's related. Is this a cause or is it an effect? We simply don't know.
What we do know is that most of the aluminum we ingest/eat is passed through the alimentary canal and excreted or if in solution or suspension is passed through the kidneys. The dialysis/aluminum link is a different topic and I will let you guys research that one.
A good note...
The bone marrow does a good job of handling any aluminum that passes it's way... thus healthy bone mass is a good thing for more reasons than just for supporting our body. Studies have concluded that a diet high in Calcium helps the body deal with ingested aluminum.
Another interesting fact is that a large portion of the aluminum that our bodies are exposed to comes from aluminum chlorate which is the active ingredient of the Arrid XX deodorant that I spray on myself daily.
Is this bad? We have not proven that it is.
Is this good? I doubt that it is good, but the aluminum in the brains of Alzeimer's patients has to come from somewhere, doesn't it?
One more thing... it appears that in order to develop Alzeimer's related dementia, one must have the gene that predisposes that person to the disease. Some people handle and ingest aluminum in copious amounts and live long healthy lives, never having any symptoms of dementia.
Some Alzeimer's victims are not exposed to any more aluminum than the average person.
Should you avoid aluminum in the form of deodorants, antacid tablets, and cookware? I do not know... but I do know that:

The minumum daily requirement of aluminum in our diet is 0mg.

and...
If my family had a history of Alzeimer's Disease, which it does not, I imagine I would want to play it safe and avoid ingesting aluminum as much as I possibly could.
What do you think?

While I appreciate you looking up that information, this thread is not a debate about any alleged links between aluminum and alzeimers. As such any discussion along those lines will be removed to the debate forum.

bradsul said:

While I appreciate you looking up that information, this thread is not a debate about any alleged links between aluminum and alzeimers. As such any discussion along those lines will be removed to the debate forum.

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Whatever...
Like I said, I read the entire thread before I posted and there were multiple posts about the ingestion of aluminum. Sorry if I offended anyone.
Bill

No worries, it's not about offending people, it's just one of those topics that seems to get people going. We have the debate forum for that and try to keep it out of the technical forums as much as possible.

I brewed a 5.5 gal batch, in my new 10 gal pot without building an oxide layer.

1. Is the beer safe? I'd think yes this one time

2. The inside looks a bit dull, not really grey. Did the wort build an oxide layer or does it need to be pure water.

3. How do you guys get a boil in a pot filled to the brim without make a complete mess?

Aluminum is such a reactive metal that it *always* has an oxide coating. Your beer will be fine.

Never fill a pot of wort to the brim. You need at least a few inches for when you get a rolling boil. Products like Fermcap-S will help prevent boilovers with extremely full pots.

Cheaton said:

I'd like to say that the link between aluminum and alzheimers has NOT been debunked. The scientific community simply has not been able to find any definitive proof of a link (yet). This is not the same as disproving. This is still being researched, therefore, there are still scientists who believe a link may exist. In science, proof is proof, but a lack of proof is not proof. I'm not trying to stir up debate on the subject. Noone on this board is probably qualified to give an opinion on the matter. But to say its been debunked is false information..... Again.... just to be clear..... In science, proof is proof, but a lack of proof is not proof.


Edit: From Web MD's article on the subject: On the whole, scientists can say only that it is still uncertain whether exposure to aluminum plays a role in Alzheimer's disease.

I would respectfully ask the mods to change the verbage of the sticky first post to read "has not been proven" instead of "has been debunked". Because that is the correct, factual, and responsible information. Even the links posted state clearly that there has been no definitive proof either way.

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By your rationale it would have to be proven to be disproven. Since it has not been proven it needs not be disproven, hence the debunked. If Aluminum gave people Alzheimers, everyone in the country would have it based on the frequency with which this country eats out and the fact that most of the cookware used in restaurants is Lincoln Wearever aluminum.

Wort contains nothing that is particularly reactive with aluminum. Salt and acid are the culprits. We are cooking what basically amounts to simple syrup.

Just got an Al brewpot, I understand the first 1 hour boil or oven prep to get the oxide layer... but what about after that? Should you just clean it with some water and a little detergent? Or not clean it with any type of cleaning solution? I see a lot of people on here talk about "taking care of the Al pot" but what exactly does this mean??

clean it with water and a soft cloth. Don't scrub it with a brillo pad ir any scouring pad. As long as you don't let anything get dry and crust on it, it's easy to keep clean. A soft diah towel and some hot watee is enough to clean it thoroughly

Not sure what the big deal is here. Google Aluminum Cookwear Care and read. The difference in color after the boiling for an hour is likely due to minerals or lack thereof in your water. Aluminum naturally builds an oxide layer without all the boiling. Just brew and enjoy.

Only on a homebrew forum can people get worked up into a rich lather about this. You have all eaten something acidic, basic, and otherwise prepared in a commercial kitchen and I have never heard of anyone complaining their fill in the blank tastes like metal.

Found this 10 gallon aluminum stock pot on samsclub.com and it appears to be the cheapest I can find. The first reviewer says that they bought it for brewing and it works great. Doesn't come with a lid (costs like $6 extra), which I would use during the cool down, but it doesn't seem too necessary. Perhaps even my lid for my 20 qt stainless steel pot will fit. Who knows.

http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=328611

Issue: I'm not a sams club member, lol. Going to ask around people I know to see if they are.

Oh, did find this one too: http://www.foodservicewarehouse.com/update-international/apt-40/p4857.aspx

Reviews are all homebrewers that love the product.

Hillbilly_Bill said:

Copper oxide is green.

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Copper oxide is NOT green.

Initially, bare Cu metal atoms react with air to form the pink oxide, cuprite, Cu2O, which has Cu+1 cations. This gradually oxidizes further to the black oxide, tenorite, CuO, with Cu+2 ions. The black sulfide CuS also sometimes forms. In the presence of moisture, the blackish layer slowly reacts with sulfur dioxide and carbon dioxide from the air to eventually form the patina, which is a mixture of 3 minerals:

brochantite, a green, hydrated copper sulfate, Cu4SO4(OH)6
malachite, the green, hydrated copper carbonate Cu2CO3(OH)3
azurite, the blue, hydrated copper carbonate Cu3(CO3)2(OH)2

What wall thickness (or duty level) should I be looking for in a 40-60qt pot?

I'm imagining that heavy gauge, is going to be better than standard but maybe it makes no difference?

So if I want to to brew using grain and have need of straight hot water a properly seasoned aluminum pot will get hot faster with no issues (assuming neutral pH and minimal mineral content in the water used). If I have concerns about aluminum's reactivity, health questions or ease of cleaning, then pick the S/S for my wort. Sound about right?

Just to further elaborate on the differences between the two metals here's a link to MSDS's for each.

http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Aluminum-9922844
http://www.samuel.com/company/pdfs/StainlessSteel.pdf

The S/S has fewer issues unless you're the guy welding it.

I've been poisoned by exposure to industrial chemicals and metals so I am very sensitive to the cautions, but it seems that a reasonable approach has already been prescribed here; if you have a family predisposition or sensitivity outside the norm, exercise due diligence and avoid using deodorant or eating Rolaids.

Most folks would stagger under the weight of scary crap that they are exposed to every day without realizing it. Food born pathogens at restaurants and grocers, VOC,s and heavy metals in their drinking water, heavy metals and chemicals in their vegetable gardens and radon gas in the basement. To be honest I'm more worried about BT corn in cattle feed and high fructose corn syrup, since I eat it every day.

I've got all kinds of neurological, cognitive and physical issues from my exposures, including Alzheimer-like memory symptoms. I represent a hopefully small contingent of the populace but deem it prudent to use the quicker heating aluminum only where it's just in contact with water. You say tomato, I say I'll have another beer.

For all of the worry and discourse the truth is that we're all much more likely to die from hypertension as a result of working too hard to pay taxes and worrying about whatever bogeyman our rulers have concocted to stay in power. I believe that is why the Founding Fathers responded to the threat by getting together to figure out how to rid themselves of that stress. And just where did they meet to discuss these weighty matters? Well at the tavern of course, where the beer was.

So I'm about to pull the trigger on a 60 qt Al pot. Some pots advertise 3004 Al alloy. Most don't and the 3004 alloy pots are pricier. I looked up what 3004 is and it seems to be just related to being higher in manganese. Does that make it sturdier? Safer? Prettier? Magic?

Thanks!

3004 is good stuff. It contains a higher percentage of alloy elves.
If the price is right for you buy it, its way better than Walmart garbage.

So if a known alloy like 3004 or 3003 is better than an unknown Al alloy, is 4mm thick 3003 better than 6mm thick unknown alloy?

I'm waffling between these two pots:

60 Qt 3003 Al pot for $57 or 60 Qt unknown Al alloy 6mm thick pot for $62.

Thoughts?

The unknown is by Update International. You could try going to www.update-international.com, contact them and see if they can tell you.
If I were buying one and they couldn't tell me, I'd go for the thinner, known one.

I don't see any practical difference in the alloy, but the thickness will make a big difference in durability. I'd go for the thicker one.

Hoppus_Poppatopolis said:

The unknown is by Update International. You could try going to www.update-international.com, contact them and see if they can tell you.
If I were buying one and they couldn't tell me, I'd go for the thinner, known one.

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Thanks for the advice. I sent off an email asking what kind of Al it is, specifically if it's an 11xx or 30xx series alloy.

AlteredEgo said:

I don't see any practical difference in the alloy, but the thickness will make a big difference in durability. I'd go for the thicker one.

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Yeah, that's what I was thinking too, but the 30xx series Al alloys are supposed to be tougher and more resistant to dents and dings. I looked up the metallurgical data on the two alloys and while the 3003 alloy has a greater tensile and yield strength by about 15% than 1100 Al, the thermal conductivity of 1100 is 25% greater than 3003 in W/m-K, so that's interesting.

Have people had problems scorching their beer with cheaper/thinner Al pots?