Planned AG Build...

I'm looking to do my first all-grain batch soon, but first, I wanted to get my estimated build critiqued. I usually tend to overkill things, so if I'm doing so, please call me on it and any advice on how to better do a part of the build, or a location for parts, or a cheaper alternative would be most welcome.

Also, I am a complete AG newbie. Still learning all of the terminology and requirements and calculations, so please bear with me.

HLT = 15.5g keggle w/ weldless fittings for spigot, sight gauge and thermometer
Already have keg and top cut, holes predrilled in bottom rim. Just need to determine if I need weldless fittings for the spigot, gauge and thermo...and if so, where to get them from.
Plan is to have this on a makeshift tower setup, using gravity to feed the juice to where it needs to go. This will be on top w/ a propane burner.

MT = large rectangular cooler w/ weldless spigot and copper manifold or steel-braided pipe
I've been reading about the differences in batch and fly sparging, and which ones yield greater efficiency and which technique is best for which hardware...and I have yet to see a true winner. This may just be due to my inexperience in AG brewing, and not having made my mind up to method yet.
The "DIY Overkiller" in me wants to get a 62qt cooler with a large latticed copper manifold, drilled and filtered. Would be set below and to the side of the HLT.

BK = 15.5g keggle w/ weldless fittings for spigot, sight gauge and thermometer
Much the same as the HLT, just lower.

Chiller = immersion copper coil w/ hose fittings
I'm sure the Therminator is the way to go, but I don't know about dropping $200 on it yet. That luxury may wait for Christmas or something...

I have a picture of a stepped rack in my head. HLT on top, step down to MT ledge, step down to BK.

I'm really open to any suggestions, but please try to keep the "you're an idiot" comments to a minimum even if they're relevant, my fragile ego can't take much abuse

(Yes, I do have a habit of aiming for mid-to-high range setups rather than starting low and building piece by piece. However, if anybody has suggestions for how to do an AG batch with a very minimal setup (not really looking to do BIAB) I'm all ears!)

I know kegcowboy has a sell on a 40 plate chiller right now super cheap and probably just as good as a thermenator http://kegcowboy.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=310 if you want to go that route.

If you want to have a go with your first AG run, get one large pot and a sparge bag and you can do BIAB. Very cost efficient, makes good brew. Search for BIAB on here to dig it up. I did three batches like that then said,... time to commit. Luckily my buddy bought a Blichmann MT - which is an unreal piece of equipment that I would have been too cheap to buy.

If you are vested in doing the pots (I would be ):

1. I would rec. batch sparging over fly. Very efficient, very easy and very quick. No need to mess with the fly sparging unless you want to.
2. IC - I use 50ft of 1/2 inch copper for an immersion chiller. You can build and solder it for about $90. Works great, cools 11g batches of brew to 75 in 12 minutes and 65 in 15 minutes.
3. I was considering a three tiered setup and recently I have decided to omit it and do a two or a single tier. I didn't want to get a pump, but getting on a ladder to fill my HLT is just gonna get old quick. Currently I am debating a raised HLT, then a pump for the MT to BK. Just something to consider... Elevating the HLT adds gravity simplicity from HLT to MT by the height won't be unrealistic.

BeerGuy1000 said:

I know kegcowboy has a sell on a 40 plate chiller right now super cheap and probably just as good as a thermenator http://kegcowboy.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=310 if you want to go that route.

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Anybody from KegCowboy care to comment on this, or anybody else own this already and able to speak to its effectiveness?

CidahMastah said:

If you want to have a go with your first AG run, get one large pot and a sparge bag and you can do BIAB. Very cost efficient, makes good brew. Search for BIAB on here to dig it up. I did three batches like that then said,... time to commit. Luckily my buddy bought a Blichmann MT - which is an unreal piece of equipment that I would have been too cheap to buy.

If you are vested in doing the pots (I would be ):

1. I would rec. batch sparging over fly. Very efficient, very easy and very quick. No need to mess with the fly sparging unless you want to.
2. IC - I use 50ft of 1/2 inch copper for an immersion chiller. You can build and solder it for about $90. Works great, cools 11g batches of brew to 75 in 12 minutes and 65 in 15 minutes.
3. I was considering a three tiered setup and recently I have decided to omit it and do a two or a single tier. I didn't want to get a pump, but getting on a ladder to fill my HLT is just gonna get old quick. Currently I am debating a raised HLT, then a pump for the MT to BK. Just something to consider... Elevating the HLT adds gravity simplicity from HLT to MT by the height won't be unrealistic.

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Thanks Cidah, pretty interested in doing keggles over BIAB. I'm sure it works for some folks, and would probably work for me, just not the route I'm interested in taking at this time.

Thanks for the batch-vs-fly recommendation, will definitely look into it.

If the thermal chiller doesn't pan out, definitely looking into doing the copper tubing route. I just need to make sure I have something I can spiral it around small enough to fit in the mouth of the keggle when I finish cutting it.

As far as the tiered setup, I was worried about the 3 tiers being to tall as well, but then I decided that I could easily run a hose to the top tier, potentially using one of those gutter cleaner attachments (they're like 3' long and have a hook on the end). The three tier height is also a reason I'm really interested in having the sight gauges on the keggles.

bigirishape said:

Thanks Cidah, pretty interested in doing keggles over BIAB. I'm sure it works for some folks, and would probably work for me, just not the route I'm interested in taking at this time.

Thanks for the batch-vs-fly recommendation, will definitely look into it.

If the thermal chiller doesn't pan out, definitely looking into doing the copper tubing route. I just need to make sure I have something I can spiral it around small enough to fit in the mouth of the keggle when I finish cutting it.

As far as the tiered setup, I was worried about the 3 tiers being to tall as well, but then I decided that I could easily run a hose to the top tier, potentially using one of those gutter cleaner attachments (they're like 3' long and have a hook on the end). The three tier height is also a reason I'm really interested in having the sight gauges on the keggles.

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I am totally with you on the keggle vs. BIAB. While good on a budget, I much prefer the convenience of the 3 pot system vs. BIAB. I am actually grabbing a 100qt megapot (should get here wednesday) and converting it to electric. This will give me a 15g HLT (megapot), 15G MT (blichmann) and a 25G BK (megapot). I have been using the HLT as a HLT/BK and it is electric - love it. Next will be electrifying my MT with an eherms coils (my chiller will double as the coil and the chiller).

That was a heck of a lot to say - go for the three pot set up.

The site gauges will be key on the three tiered set up. For me, I told the wife about the design, and my concern for hot water up that far. Once I told her that I was immediately vetted for a pump and a single tier design! Not to mention... with that rack design I will be able to brew in my basement in the winter

I think you could do without the thermometer on the BK. It's either boiling or it's not. Everything else looks good to me. Don't forget to not use a regular garden hose to put water in the HLT. Get one of the blue RV hoses.

jww9618 said:

I think you could do without the thermometer on the BK. It's either boiling or it's not. Everything else looks good to me. Don't forget to not use a regular garden hose to put water in the HLT. Get one of the blue RV hoses.

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Not necessary, but to me the thermometer is well worth it there.

I like being able to glance up at my PID and see how close I am to a boil. It won't be as visible with a thermometer, but just the same you will know when you should start hanging around the kettle in anticipation of hot break and first hop additions.

jww9618 said:

I think you could do without the thermometer on the BK. It's either boiling or it's not. Everything else looks good to me. Don't forget to not use a regular garden hose to put water in the HLT. Get one of the blue RV hoses.

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True, thermo on BK is optional, but I figure if I'm already going to town on the setup I may as well. That way if the HLT has any issues, I can just swap BK up to HLT and use another keggle as a temp BK w/o thermo. I'm an IT person, I like easy redundancy

As far as the hose, I didn't know about this blue RV hose. Any further info regarding what it is, why not the regular hose, and where I may be able to find one?

bargainfittings.com for the best deal/selection on fittings from my own personal experience

and as for the hose, you want one designed for drinking water as normal green garden hoses can impart a taste to the water.

blue or white, the easiest place to find them is the rv section at walmart or an rv dealer/parts supplier if there's one around you

I got my ag items for under 100 bucks. Google the name donosborn as one word. He has the best easy to understand directions without the bs calculations and lingo. He also has a YouTube video that is great. It's so easy to understand my wife could make a batch of Ag. My wife does not have a clue how to make beer.

jww9618 said:

I think you could do without the thermometer on the BK. It's either boiling or it's not. Everything else looks good to me. Don't forget to not use a regular garden hose to put water in the HLT. Get one of the blue RV hoses.

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If the brewer chills in the BK a thermometer is very useful. Don't most brewers chill in the BK?

Forgot to add that I use a faucet pur water filter. You can get that setup for 20 bucks with a filter included. Just be prepared to wait forever to fill up a jug.

bigirishape said:

I'm looking to do my first all-grain batch soon, but first, I wanted to get my estimated build critiqued. I usually tend to overkill things, so if I'm doing so, please call me on it and any advice on how to better do a part of the build, or a location for parts, or a cheaper alternative would be most welcome.

Also, I am a complete AG newbie. Still learning all of the terminology and requirements and calculations, so please bear with me.

Click to expand...

I'm in the same exact boat as you with the same exact plan.

I really liked what I saw from Bobbi M @ http://www.brewhardware.com. He's on this site and has had great reviews. I dig the sight glass/thermometer combo.
Also I would definitely make sure to have a thermo on my bk as I too plan to chill with an immersion chiller and like you said it's nice to have a back up. I was really torn on going with the immersion over the therminator (or any other plate chiller) as I've heard they can be a pain to keep from clogging and cleaning. Plus I just wanted to keep it simple.

passedpawn said:

If the brewer chills in the BK a thermometer is very useful. Don't most brewers chill in the BK?

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+1 - I do that, how could I forget!?

CidahMastah said:

+1 - I do that, how could I forget!?

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If using a plate chiller, it's better to have the thermometer on the output of the chiller. You can see this here (I've mounted my plate chiller in a toolbox on the right).

CompassBrewing said:

I'm in the same exact boat as you with the same exact plan.

I really liked what I saw from Bobbi M @ http://www.brewhardware.com. He's on this site and has had great reviews. I dig the sight glass/thermometer combo.
Also I would definitely make sure to have a thermo on my bk as I too plan to chill with an immersion chiller and like you said it's nice to have a back up. I was really torn on going with the immersion over the therminator (or any other plate chiller) as I've heard they can be a pain to keep from clogging and cleaning. Plus I just wanted to keep it simple.

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I got two of Bobby M's sight glass tubes and weldless fittings and therom gauges for my future HLT and BK they are great, putting them into 15.5g SS kegs for my electric EHERMS single level system with two pumps...best of luck!

If I were doing a rectangular cooler as a MLT, it would be smart to put in a sight/thermo gauge...right?

Also, if I end up with a 62qt cooler or something huge like that, should I try to find a braided cable longer than 10-12" to give more coverage, or does the length of braid not really matter?




I think I have the design set on paper, and pricing between BargainFittings and BrewHardware is good (plus a small trip to my local Lowes or Home Depot), and the whole thing seems to be coming together nicely!

since you mentioned aiming towards the mid/higher end, have you considered doing a copper or cpvc manifold rather than braid for the MLT? That way it will work for batch or fly sparging should you desire to try either in the future and building it now will save you the cost of doing the braid up front if you think it's likely

legaleagle37 said:

since you mentioned aiming towards the mid/higher end, have you considered doing a copper or cpvc manifold rather than braid for the MLT? That way it will work for batch or fly sparging should you desire to try either in the future and building it now will save you the cost of doing the braid up front if you think it's likely

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I considered doing a copper manifold, and while it is still a possibility, I'd need to read more into how to make one. I'm not experienced with copper piping and all of the soldering and joining techniques that I expect would be used. That is the only real consideration when it comes down to making one. I remember reading someone had a copper manifold put together and zip tied so it wouldn't separate during brewing, but was easy to tear down and clean when done. This may merit further research.

passedpawn said:

If the brewer chills in the BK a thermometer is very useful. Don't most brewers chill in the BK?

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I chill in the Boil Kettle. I use an external heat exchanger and recirculate
back into the Brew Kettle. I "recirculate" using a bucket while I marshal the resources for a March Pump. I also use the keggle (BK) as a hot liquor tank.

Jay

I use a cpvc manifold that i just pieced together. Not glued at all. I just take it easy when stirring the mash near the bottom.

Go with a keg mash tun... I have one (batch #2 went through it on Friday) and can see using it for the long haul. I tend to not care (too much) about the item cost IF I know I'm getting quality items at that rate. So, I went with the Jaybird 15" full false bottom, dip tube and 1/2" 3 piece ball valve setup. Plus the thermometer and return fitting on the mash tun keg/keggle... Being able to direct fire (and recirculate) the mash tun has made things MUCH easier for me on brew day. I'm working on insulating it before the next brew day, so that I'll have little (if any) temperature loss.

I also have a 40 plate chiller from Rebel Brewer (ChillHog 4000) and their RebelSmart thermocouple and ball valve assembly. GREAT item to have on a plate chiller. I've installed QD's on the chiller wort side, to make it easier to use (and back flush)... I do plan on adding a fitting to my boil kettle (or keggle if things work out well this weekend) so that I can more easily recirculate the boiling wort through the chiller into the boil kettle/keggle to sanitize it before needing to chill it down.

If I was to do it all over again, I would just get the plate chiller from the start (with a pump) and be done with it. I would also go with the keg mash tun, or a similarly sized kettle mash tun.

How you heat is really up to you. I'm using propane right now (no option for electric where I brew). One advantage there is I'm almost 100% portable for brewing. I can bring brew water with me, so all I need is a source of chill water and I'm set. Actually, since I ferment in stainless sanke kegs, I could just pour into primary, seal, and pitch the yeast once it's chilled down to the right temp. I'd rather not, but it is an option.

Just a heads up but Austin homebrew is having a sale on stainless steel 3-piece ball valves. 18.99 until october 16th.

Golddiggie said:

Go with a keg mash tun... I have one (batch #2 went through it on Friday) and can see using it for the long haul. I tend to not care (too much) about the item cost IF I know I'm getting quality items at that rate. So, I went with the Jaybird 15" full false bottom, dip tube and 1/2" 3 piece ball valve setup. Plus the thermometer and return fitting on the mash tun keg/keggle... Being able to direct fire (and recirculate) the mash tun has made things MUCH easier for me on brew day. I'm working on insulating it before the next brew day, so that I'll have little (if any) temperature loss.

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I guess price-wise a keggle MT would be cheaper, since I have the keggle but not the cooler, but I have to wonder about mash temps. It seems it would be much easier to maintain temps for an hour inside of an insulated cooler rather than a single-walled metal keggle. I also don't know what material would be optimal to insulate a keggle, or how much it costs...

bigirishape said:

I guess price-wise a keggle MT would be cheaper, since I have the keggle but not the cooler, but I have to wonder about mash temps. It seems it would be much easier to maintain temps for an hour inside of an insulated cooler rather than a single-walled metal keggle. I also don't know what material would be optimal to insulate a keggle, or how much it costs...

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I wrap my blichmann MT in reflectix (HD or lowes has it) -it looks like silver bubble wrap - and then I cut out a circular piece to go over the lid. I then wrap the tun over the lid with two towels. the reflectix is probably 15-20 per roll, you would probably only need 1/3 of the roll for a keggle to insulate.

The only real advantages to a stainless MT is probably:
1. Easier to clean (debatable) - won't scratch and harbor batceria
2. longer lasting
3. can direct fire it to heat it.
4. Most importantly, I *think* people tend to get more efficiency with the plate filtering mashtun design than the braided stainless. Though that could just be anecdotal experience.

IF you wrap the keggle mash tun with Reflectix, make sure you don't have it on when you're applying heat to it. I did that last time and the insides (the bubble wrap portion/layer) melted. You could see the depth change on the outside (the two foil layers were intact).

For my next attempt, I'm probably going to try a high heat (1800F) tolerant welders mat. I'm also going to check with a place that sprays Line-X to see what kind of temperatures it can withstand and see if it has any insulating factor to it. IF it does, I'll prep the keggle mash tun and bring it over to get sprayed. I suspect that it can handle the heat since they advertise spraying bbq's/grills with it.

sounds like you pretty much are building my brewing setup.

HLT keggle CHECK
BK Keggle CHECK
Square igloo Mash tun with CPVC manifold and fly sparge maifold

I have a 3rd keg I had planned on turning into an Mash tun, but no until I can afford the false Jaybird False bottom and second pump. also about the time I convert my NG fired burners into an Electric setup.



-=Jason=-

bargainfittings is my choice for weldless bulkheads, but brewhardware has the best thermometer/sightglass combos imo. Your ideas are all solid. Start with batch sparging, its so much easier and youll have one less thing to worry about going into all grain. It will also allow you to go with a very easy MT build, as you can just use stainless braid. You can always upgrade later if you want to fly sparge and the only waste will be a $5 stainless braid that you will replace with a manifold. If you dont have a pump to start then id stick with an immersion chiller. While you can gravity drain thru a plate chiller its not going to work as well and will push your system even higher in to the air. For the RV hose you can get those most anywhere that sell hoses. Menards, home depot, even walmart will sell rv potable water hose. You dont want cheap plastic hose.

If you're really gonna go all out, you need to at least look at RIMS and HERMS. Also, what about a 2 tier instead. You can do a 2 tier stand with only one pump. You're going to need one if you get a plate chiller. You can mount a whole house water filter to your stand. This will be cheaper and last longer than a Pur or Brita water filter. I don't filter my water but I attach 1/2" vinyl tubing to the spigot with a hose adapter to fill my pots. This avoids potential issues with filling up with a rubber hose.

Golddiggie said:

IF you wrap the keggle mash tun with Reflectix, make sure you don't have it on when you're applying heat to it. I did that last time and the insides (the bubble wrap portion/layer) melted. You could see the depth change on the outside (the two foil layers were intact).

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Haha - did that once myself. I should have mentioned - I wrap it on when it is mashing, take it off if I need to goose the tun with propane.

Flomaster - glad to see I am not the only brotha rocking the banquet table as my current "brewstand" haha. Soon my stand will be realized!

So I have my parts to build the keggles all purchased and in hand, burners and propane in hand, ingredients in hand....3 things I'm lacking...

1. high temp food grade vinyl tube to transfer from the hlt to mt, and mt to bk, and bk to carboy. resolving this issue soon, local HBS has 1/2" in stock.

now here is where I could use some feedback...

2. I neglected to buy a dip tube from BargainFittings while I was getting valves and such. Is there an easy way to pick up some parts from Lowes or Home Depot and jury rig one up?

3. Immersion Chiller. I am planning to use an IC with a fountain pump to recirc icewater from a bin. I've found the pump I want, the question now remains about the IC itself... I'm using keggles, so they're fairly deep, and I'm going to be getting into 10 gal batches soon. I was thinking about 20' of 3/8" pipe with vinyl hose and screw down clamps, then a fitting to hook the inlet hose to the pump. I've read some of the other IC posts and popular opinion seems to be 50' of 1/2" or 3/8" copper would be better, and would be optimal for 10g batches.

So I guess my questions regarding this are...
A) Is 50' of 3/8" good? 1/2" is a bit cost prohibitive...
B) Will single coil work, or should I try to do some kind of double coil-inside-a-coil, or the ribcage design?
C) I am planning to coil it around a corny keg to keep size, any suggestions for wrapping it so I don't kink it? Anything aside from a corny keg you'd recommend to use for a mold?

Silicone tubing seems the best. Food grade, not easy to kink, resilient...

Look at IC prices. Sometimes it costs just as much or even less to just buy an IC than to buy the copper. Since you're using ice water, I think you can get away with the smaller copper tubing. I think you should get as much as your budget can afford.

I can buy a 25' 3/8" IC from LHBS with hose fittings soldered on for $60. Can't order anywhere else for less. However if I just buy the copper, it will run 50' 3/8" for $55. Then some vinyl hose and clamps for another $5-10. I'll end up with 2x the IC and able to pick my own fittings for less cost, so I'm heading that way...just hoping I don't pinch the tube or something...

bigirishape said:

I can buy a 25' 3/8" IC from LHBS with hose fittings soldered on for $60. Can't order anywhere else for less. However if I just buy the copper, it will run 50' 3/8" for $55. Then some vinyl hose and clamps for another $5-10. I'll end up with 2x the IC and able to pick my own fittings for less cost, so I'm heading that way...just hoping I don't pinch the tube or something...

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I'm going to make a "rib cage" chiller this weekend with this thread as my inspiration:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/diy-interwoven-rib-cage-immersion-chiller-106415/

bigirishape said:

I can buy a 25' 3/8" IC from LHBS with hose fittings soldered on for $60. Can't order anywhere else for less. However if I just buy the copper, it will run 50' 3/8" for $55. Then some vinyl hose and clamps for another $5-10. I'll end up with 2x the IC and able to pick my own fittings for less cost, so I'm heading that way...just hoping I don't pinch the tube or something...

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For 10 gallon batches, you're going to want the 50 feet. The extra length will make a big difference for those last 50 or so degrees.

Remember, the biggest factor in heat transfer is the difference in temp between the two sides. At the beginning of the chill, 10 feet will perform as well as 50 since it only takes about a foot or two for the chill water to get heated up to near boiling and it won't absorb any more heat. But when you're trying to chill down that last 10 degrees, the extra length will help a lot since the chill water won't be fully heated up in the first 20 feet and it can keep absorbing heat all the way through the full length.

Hell, I'm considering moving to a 50 foot IC for 5 gallon batches.

Also, if it's not cost prohibitive, I'd look at stainless instead of copper. I've used both and I can tell you two things from experience. 1. Copper performs better than stainless. 2. The difference is so frickin' small that I'll take stainless every time just to avoid cleaning up the green nastiness that builds up on the copper between brews. The weather (tap water temps) makes a bigger difference in how fast you can chill than the material the coil is made of does. Seriously, we're talking a very small difference....

You can buy a ready made 50 foot stainless IC for a hundred bucks, with garden hose fittings attached, not just rubber tubing hose-clamped on.

So that would be a good dollar figure to use as a baseline when you're pricing the copper tubing.