using distilled water then adding salts

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

glorifiedbusdriver

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Messages
70
Reaction score
0
I'm brewing a hefe tomorrow for the first time but my water at home has 112 bicarbonates HCO3. I was planning on blending my water with distilled water (75 distilleded/25 home) but Palmer's spreadsheet still says that my SRM should be between 4 and 9. Beersmith says that my corlor is 3.5.
Should I use all distilled water then add salts? Here is what I came up with by playing around with Palmer's spreadsheet.

Mash water volume 3.56 gal.

salts to add:

2 grams gypsum
1 gram calcium chloride
2 grams epsom salt

This results in water as fallows:

Calcium 54
magnesium 14
hco3 0
sodium 0
chloride 36
sulfate 141

The SRM here says between 1 and 6.

I assume I would have to make the appropriate adjustments to my sparge water as well.

Is this a good idea or am I getting way over my head.
 
anyone?
actually my homebrew store doesn't carry epsom salt so it would just be the gypsum and calcium chloride addition.
 
You can get epsom salt at any grocery store, too.

I don't have any software to do those calcs at work to double-check you, but off-hand those numbers look good to me. You might also consider adding a VERY small amount of baking soda to balance the minerals out.
 
I spoke to my LHBS about this very issue... and they said that they do not recommend building your water. They have suggested using 1/2 distilled and 1/2 spring water, and I have, and it has worked perfectly. If you are brewing something darker, more bitter (Stouts or IPAs... ) then you can use more spring water and less distilled. Works great for me, that is my .02 cents


POL
 
That's probably sound advice to most people. I suppose you could easily make a mistake building your water and jack up a brew, but if you understand what you're doing and you're careful with your measurements, I don't see anything wrong with it.
 
The guys at the LHBS were like... "sure you can build it, but it is more expensive, it is more difficult, and alot more trouble than simply mixing (2) different waters. I also use 5.2 buffer and have had excellent brews using this method. Add a little more spring water for hardness if you are making an IPA to help bring out the hops, for light and malty beers, more distilled. This isnt rocket science... well, you can make it rocket science if you like!
 
I can make it like a rocket scientist, and I like it. One thing I love about this hobby is that there is an enormous amount of information to keep learning. It is never boring.
If anyone's interested I used 15% my water and the rest distilled water then added the appropriate amount of salts. Mash pH was between 5.2 and 5.6 and I hit my usual efficiency of 75% (I normally us the 5.2 buffer but I decided to try something different this time.)
John Palmer does a great job of explaining everything in simple terms and his spread sheet was an enormous help.
I this stuff tastes good I'm abandoning the 5.2 buffer all together.

Thanks for every one's input. Cheers!:mug:
 
5 years late I know...
But you can build your own water from distilled water. Most home brew shops or forums will tell you not too because its easy o screw up. Its easy to get the ratios wrong. As john palmer points out its not the concentration its the ratio that matters. I have an advantage over most in that I am a freshwater biologist and have expensive "work"/ home brewing equipment at my disposal. However, with out expensive gadgets you can still make good home brew water. Use a program like beer smith and focus on ratios not concentrations. apart form that one reason "making" water might not work is people tend to focus on the macros and not the micros. Spring water is composed of more than just 6 or so macro brewing salts. There is very complex biochemistry involved in yeast growth and enzyme/substrate structure and activity etc. However most of those micro chemicals such as boron, zinc, iron (yes iron) are present in higher than limiting quantities in tap water or bottled spring water. Which is why half or 15% addition of spring water, as mentioned above works and 100 distilled or RO does not.

Good thread wish I wasn't 5 years late

Cheers
 
5 years late I know...
But you can build your own water from distilled water. Most home brew shops or forums will tell you not too because its easy o screw up. Its easy to get the ratios wrong. As john palmer points out its not the concentration its the ratio that matters. I have an advantage over most in that I am a freshwater biologist and have expensive "work"/ home brewing equipment at my disposal. However, with out expensive gadgets you can still make good home brew water. Use a program like beer smith and focus on ratios not concentrations. apart form that one reason "making" water might not work is people tend to focus on the macros and not the micros. Spring water is composed of more than just 6 or so macro brewing salts. There is very complex biochemistry involved in yeast growth and enzyme/substrate structure and activity etc. However most of those micro chemicals such as boron, zinc, iron (yes iron) are present in higher than limiting quantities in tap water or bottled spring water. Which is why half or 15% addition of spring water, as mentioned above works and 100 distilled or RO does not.

I am planning to use 100% distilled water for an IPA this Friday. My recent success using local spring water from the grocery has not been great. I used Brun Water Spreadsheet created by Martin Brungard. As he recommends, I selected Distilled Water and set the concentration to 100%. Using a Pale Ale profile, it tells me to add .5g gyp, 2g Epsom, .5g baking soda, and 2g calcium chloride to the mash water followed with sparge water treated with another .5g gyp, 2g Epsom, and 2g calcium chloride. According to the spreadsheet, this should get me within acceptable ranges for my session IPA. More importantly you mentioned the ratio. I assume you're talking about the SO4/CI ratio. Says mine would be at 1.1 which seems OK for a session IPA (from my limited perspective). Also says the mash pH will be about 5.4-5.5 which I think is OK. Thoughts??: mug:
 
I am planning to use 100% distilled water for an IPA this Friday. My recent success using local spring water from the grocery has not been great. I used Brun Water Spreadsheet created by Martin Brungard. As he recommends, I selected Distilled Water and set the concentration to 100%. Using a Pale Ale profile, it tells me to add .5g gyp, 2g Epsom, .5g baking soda, and 2g calcium chloride to the mash water followed with sparge water treated with another .5g gyp, 2g Epsom, and 2g calcium chloride. According to the spreadsheet, this should get me within acceptable ranges for my session IPA. More importantly you mentioned the ratio. I assume you're talking about the SO4/CI ratio. Says mine would be at 1.1 which seems OK for a session IPA (from my limited perspective). Also says the mash pH will be about 5.4-5.5 which I think is OK. Thoughts??: mug:

No, you don't want to add baking soda to your mash. Not unless your mash pH is below 5.3, and it won't be. You don't need the calcium chloride either. You want calcium of 50 ppm or more, sulfate of 150 ppm (or more) but you don't have to add epsom (magnesium) unless you want to because you know what it brings to the flavor and you don't need calcium chloride at all.

Ignore the fact that you ever heard the words S04/CL ratio. The reason is that the logic behind it is faulty. For example, lets say you have a water with 50 ppm of sulfate and 25 ppm of chloride. That's a 2:1 ratio, which according to the theory is "very bitter". Guess what? It's not, not at all. Because the amount is so small as to be insignifcant. But if you have 300 ppm and 150 ppm of chloride, you still have 2:1 ratio- but the beer will be minerally and probably undrinkable.

So ignore the ratio, and look at the total amounts. In an IPA, I like about 150 ppm and minimal chloride. But some folks like much more sulfate, up to 300 ppm, which really enhances the "dry" flavor (not so much the bitterness flavor).

You can treat your water all at once, instead of splitting up the amounts, unless you have a reason to treat your water separately (like a too small HLT for example).
 
Thanks for quick reply. In my post I added a very small amount of soda to the mash water but not the sparge, as I have read you don't want to add it to the sparge water. I guess I was doing that to boost the sodium from zero. However, less than 1g wouldn't raise it much more than 5ppm would it?

Anyhow, how would you recommend treating Distilled water for an IPA? Or should I not even mess with Distilled and just continue using a store bought "spring water" from and actually spring source (vs. municipal)? Your input is greatly appreciated!
 
Thanks for quick reply. In my post I added a very small amount of soda to the mash water but not the sparge, as I have read you don't want to add it to the sparge water. I guess I was doing that to boost the sodium from zero. However, less than 1g wouldn't raise it much more than 5ppm would it?

Anyhow, how would you recommend treating Distilled water for an IPA? Or should I not even mess with Distilled and just continue using a store bought "spring water" from and actually spring source (vs. municipal)? Your input is greatly appreciated!

Distilled water is perfect, as you know what is in it (nothing). I'm not one to increase sodium or magnesium in most of my beers, as malt has plenty of magnesium. I use calcium sulfate in my IPAs, to get my calcium above 50 ppm and my sulfate above 150 ppm, or so. That's about it.
 
Thanks for quick reply. In my post I added a very small amount of soda to the mash water but not the sparge, as I have read you don't want to add it to the sparge water. I guess I was doing that to boost the sodium from zero. However, less than 1g wouldn't raise it much more than 5ppm would it?

Anyhow, how would you recommend treating Distilled water for an IPA? Or should I not even mess with Distilled and just continue using a store bought "spring water" from and actually spring source (vs. municipal)? Your input is greatly appreciated!

If you are using Bru n' water make sure you enter your grain bill or the mash pH calculation will not be correct. I think Yoopers numbers look great for an IPA, I tend to go closer to 200ppm on sulfate for PA/IPA's but that is personal preference. The important thing is Calcium > than 50ppm (I target 80) and sulfate. Assuming you have a little crystal malt in the grain bill, your pH should be fine...I use 1.5-2% acid malt in my Pale Ales and my pH's are very reliably 5.3-5.5
 
I found this podcast on water very helpful. Gordon Strong details this philosophy in his book Brewing Better Beer if you decide to look deeper into it. He pretty much starts with a clean slate every time then does very minor additions to enhance malt or hops depending on what he is brewing. After much research I adopted this methodology and my quality of beer had increased. I have enough variables to dial in developing consistency. I don't need a water variable.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/05/31/advanced-home-brewing-with-gordon-strong-beersmith-podcast-39/
 
I found this podcast on water very helpful. Gordon Strong details this philosophy in his book Brewing Better Beer if you decide to look deeper into it. He pretty much starts with a clean slate every time then does very minor additions to enhance malt or hops depending on what he is brewing. After much research I adopted this methodology and my quality of beer had increased. I have enough variables to dial in developing consistency. I don't need a water variable.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/05/31/advanced-home-brewing-with-gordon-strong-beersmith-podcast-39/


Yeah I had listened to the Gordon Strong interview a while ago and forgot about it. Just finished listening again... GREAT input. That's for reminding me about this. I'm also very interested in his thoughts about adding crystal malts at the end of the mash as well as moving some dry hops over to flame-out. Might have to try both of those during this Friday's brew.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew
 
Starting with a clean slate is a nice option...if its available to you. But an important limitation is that you have to have a plan for adding alkalinity to your mashing water other than using chalk. The method that Gordon likes (actually the Guinness method), reserves roast malts from the main mash in order to avoid an overly low pH when mashing with low or no alkalinity water. It does work. However, it does not avoid creating a low pH in the kettle. In some styles, that low kettle wort pH is not a problem. In other styles, you will be hard pressed to create an excellent beer when the pH is too low. For instance, Gordon won a NHC medal with a Schwartzbier using this method. Fortunately, this style is mostly malt-focused with little roast flavor and it doesn't suffer from a slightly low kettle pH. But you will find that more roasty beers like porters and most stouts need the mash and kettle pH to end up nearer to the 5.4 to 5.6 range to help mellow and round those roast flavors. Either pickling lime or baking soda additions in the mash can make a big difference in those mashes that might otherwise end up with a too low pH.
 
Starting with a clean slate is a nice option...if its available to you. But an important limitation is that you have to have a plan for adding alkalinity to your mashing water other than using chalk. The method that Gordon likes (actually the Guinness method), reserves roast malts from the main mash in order to avoid an overly low pH when mashing with low or no alkalinity water. It does work. However, it does not avoid creating a low pH in the kettle. In some styles, that low kettle wort pH is not a problem. In other styles, you will be hard pressed to create an excellent beer when the pH is too low. For instance, Gordon won a NHC medal with a Schwartzbier using this method. Fortunately, this style is mostly malt-focused with little roast flavor and it doesn't suffer from a slightly low kettle pH. But you will find that more roasty beers like porters and most stouts need the mash and kettle pH to end up nearer to the 5.4 to 5.6 range to help mellow and round those roast flavors. Either pickling lime or baking soda additions in the mash can make a big difference in those mashes that might otherwise end up with a too low pH.


Fantastic summary from the man himself, I presume! But doesn't your spreadsheet discourage adding soda to the mash? Thanks again for the input which is extremely helpful putting it all into perspective.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew
 
I will keep that in mind as I look to brew those roasty styles.

I have also started separating my crystal malts out of the main mash and adding before vorlauf. The main need being to rinse rather than mash those makes some sense. My results have been good. Can't say it is just that tho as I made other tweaks at the same time like the RO water additives. Thx for feedback.
 
But doesn't your spreadsheet discourage adding soda to the mash?

Not really. The thing that is cautioned is adding too much sodium. However, since you only add baking soda to the mash and not to the sparging water, the typical effect is that you don't really end up boosting the sodium content that much. The supporter's version of Bru'n Water automatically calculates the final sodium, sulfate, and chloride content in the kettle wort that accounts for that sort of dilution when the quality of the mashing and sparging water differ.

When you start with low sodium water, you can add an appreciable amount of alkalinity to the mash without exceeding the suggested sodium limit. On top of that, roasty beers actually seem to taste better with sodium at and above the lower limit I suggest in Bru'n Water.

Enjoy!
 
5 years late I know...
But you can build your own water from distilled water. Most home brew shops or forums will tell you not too because its easy o screw up. Its easy to get the ratios wrong. As john palmer points out its not the concentration its the ratio that matters. I have an advantage over most in that I am a freshwater biologist and have expensive "work"/ home brewing equipment at my disposal. However, with out expensive gadgets you can still make good home brew water. Use a program like beer smith and focus on ratios not concentrations. apart form that one reason "making" water might not work is people tend to focus on the macros and not the micros. Spring water is composed of more than just 6 or so macro brewing salts. There is very complex biochemistry involved in yeast growth and enzyme/substrate structure and activity etc. However most of those micro chemicals such as boron, zinc, iron (yes iron) are present in higher than limiting quantities in tap water or bottled spring water. Which is why half or 15% addition of spring water, as mentioned above works and 100 distilled or RO does not.

Good thread wish I wasn't 5 years late

Cheers

(I know the message I'm replying to is a year old, but the thread is active)

Does that really about the micro-nutrients? The water will be lacking in zinc, boron, iron, and other trace elements, but the malt will not.

I just went to a local homebrew club meeting a few days ago, and I asked how people deal with the awful water here. It tastes fine (if you like drinking water), but is *very* high in bicarbonate, kind of high in magnesium and iron, and low in calcium. They said everybody uses RO or distilled water from Walmart -- and I assume they add gypsum and other salts.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top