MORE Stupid Newbie Kegging Questions

...so i filled my keg, purged the headspace, tossed into spare fridge, hooked up the gas and...

how the hell do i know when force carbing is "finished"? i'm referring to the slow-forced carb chart from kegerators but i've checked all the stickies and can't find my answer. do i just wait "three to five days" and it's magically delicious?

i set my psi to 12 but the regulator gauge seems to be fluctuating between 10-14 at the various times i've checked it. in hindsight, maybe i should have let the beer sit overnight in the fridge before putting carb pressure on it, but live and learn. would this explain the variance or should i continue to expect some sort of slight differences from what my psi is set at (i also noticed that when i pressurized an empty keg the needle would climb a little higher [1-2psi] when the co2 reached equilibrium)?.

and finally, how does one set a regulator to a lower pressure? this should seem obvious to me but it ain't. i tried backing the screw out and the needle just parks itself at the set psi..the only way i figured out how to do it is to vent the pressure until my needle reads right. this cannot be the correct way, is it? do i release all the headspace pressure before setting my serving psi?

all this craziness better be worth the carbed beer...i'd hate to be the only one to revert to bottling...

To set it to a lower pressure turn the set screw counter clockwise. With some systems you may need to purge the CO2 (pull the blow off on your keg like you are purging it again) and watch your needle.

As far a carbonation you will probably get several different answers because it depends on a lot of variables like temp, etc..

I have found for me to let them sit a couple of days and then try a pint. Then wait a day or so and try another until it fits YOUR taste. Take notes so you can duplicate or try new methods on the next keg.

Your set pressure seems about right. I try to stay around 11-12 serving pressure with 5-6 foot serving lines running from my keg to my tap.

The reason the regulator read that pressure even after turning the dial down is that the pressure is residual in the keg and in the lines. To dial the pressure down, I have to turn the dial down and vent the keg (or use the little vent on the regulator). So, in essence, that is the correct way. Its not like the regulator on my air compressor which auto-vents when dialing the pressure down.

As far as telling when its ready? Taste it! I usually check mine every few days, mostly to show myself how the flavors change over time and to check the carbonation. Mine usually take longer than 3-5 days when set at my serving pressure of ~10psi, more like a week or maybe even two.

So, I would like to preface this response with the following - I have only kegged once and I am still grappling with getting it right - i.e. it still isn't coming out properly.

I had some discussions with my LBS (local brew shop) folks and told him how I had done it:
1) rack beer into keg, 2) put 20 lbs pressure on it to seat the lid, bleed off, 3) put on 10 lbs and bleed (repeat 3 times) to purge oxygen, 4) let sit outside over night to chill, 5) put under 25 lbs pressure and roll for 10 minutes (fast carb method) and then bleed, put onto 10-12 lbs for serving.
He said that was fine, but he does it the "slow method" - do steps one thru four and then leave it to sit on the final serving pressure for a week or two, then test.

With regards to the reg, not so sure about that. I know that mine seems to stick a bit. I give it a couple of gentle thwacks it make sure I get the proper reading, but I have never seen it go up and down. Has the keg been holding pressure (i.e. is the lid seated good)? That needle climbing that you mention is why I started the "thwacking" - I would set it at 5 and notice that after a while it would go up to 6 or 7.

When I drop the pressure on the keg I just back it out fully (till I'm at 0), then bleed the keg and repressureize to the lower number. Given the short time it takes for all this to happen, I feel it is safe to say that the existing CO2 that is dissolved will not come out of suspension. I say this because I grilled the LBS folks about how to use my counter-pressure bottle filler and they said - assuming little physical agitation of the liquid and assuming the bottle is at the proper temp, I should have a minute or two before dissolved gases start to come out of suspension (not their exact words, but that was the jist of it).

Oh, and this is assuming that we are talking CO2 here.

Wow! I don't make the big production that some of you do over carbing your beer! I keg it, put it on 30 lbs for "about" a day and a half. Then lower it to serving psi (8-10psi). I am drinking it after about a week and it is fine.

Slipgate said:

Wow! I don't make the big production that some of you do over carbing your beer! I keg it, put it on 30 lbs for "about" a day and a half. Then lower it to serving psi (8-10psi). I am drinking it after about a week and it is fine.

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Yes but some like to know exactly the volumes of CO2 in their beer. With the "30 PSI" method you have no idea of the carbonation level from one keg to the next.

chaydaw said:

Yes but some like to know exactly the volumes of CO2 in their beer. With the "30 PSI" method you have no idea of the carbonation level from one keg to the next.

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I disagree - the 30psi gets it going, and it remains at serving psi (I purge after lowering it from 30) for the rest of the keg life (1-2 months). I know the carbonation is "right", since I like the taste. And I do it the same way each time, so it is consistent between beers.

Slipgate said:

I disagree - the 30psi gets it going, and it remains at serving psi (I purge after lowering it from 30) for the rest of the keg life (1-2 months). I know the carbonation is "right", since I like the taste. And I do it the same way each time, so it is consistent between beers.

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I understand what you are saying and I am glad it works for you. All I am saying is that you will never know your true exact carbonation levels using that method. Yes it will work and get the beer carbonated but it is not precise.

I like to let mine sit for at least a week just to crash cool any extra yeast I can out of suspension. After about a week you can pull a pint off the bottom that should contain most of that yeast, then you can pull another taste and see how far along you are.

i do the 30 psi, then 10psi for a week. I pull a couple of pints during the week to test and get sediment out of the keg/line.

If you force carb immediatly does this mess up collecting sediment?

chaydaw said:

I understand what you are saying and I am glad it works for you. All I am saying is that you will never know your true exact carbonation levels using that method. Yes it will work and get the beer carbonated but it is not precise.

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I disagree.

His method (30psi for ~1-1.5 days, followed by serving pressure indefinitely) should be quite consistent. Note that he does not shake the keg at 30psi, but rather lets it sit for 24-36 hours. All he's doing is using the higher pressure to bring the concentration of CO2 close to his desired level faster than it would at a lower pressure. The beer is not left at 30psi long enough to bring it above the CO2 equilibrium level that it would reach with a 12psi 'set-and-forget' approach.

For the sake of argument, say you want X volumes of CO2 in your beer, which you could achieve by leaving a keg at Y psi for 14 days. Being impatient, you could alternatively put it at 3*Y psi for 1-2 days, which would bring the CO2 level up to X-Z volumes. Then, purge the keg and turn down the pressure to Y psi to slowly (over the next 5 days) add the remaining amount of CO2 (Z volumes), bringing the total to the X volumes that you were going for originally.

Those that force carb at 30psi in 10 minutes with vigorous shaking are the ones playing with inconsistent results.

I usually do 10-12psi for a week. But i always chill the beer before I start to carbonate.

wedge421 said:

I usually do 10-12psi for a week. But i always chill the beer before I start to carbonate.

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I pretty much do the same! I keg the beer, hit it with a blast of co2 to seat the lid, and check for leaks, and then purge and do it again to make sure I get rid of any o2 in the keg that I can. Then I put it in the kegerator at 12 psi and come back in a week or so.

If I'm in a HUGE hurry, I set the regulator at 30 psi for 36 hours, then purge and reset at 12 psi. It's ready a few days sooner that way.

erikpete18 said:

I like to let mine sit for at least a week just to crash cool any extra yeast I can out of suspension. After about a week you can pull a pint off the bottom that should contain most of that yeast, then you can pull another taste and see how far along you are.

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i'm pretty sure that this particular batch has minimal (if any) yeast left in suspension...i found a carboy full of beer in an unused closet that is at least a year old, if not longer. i figured that this would be my test batch for my first time kegging...amazingly, the beer still smelled fine though i have no idea what it is.

SevenSeaScourge said:

i'm pretty sure that this particular batch has minimal (if any) yeast left in suspension...i found a carboy full of beer in an unused closet that is at least a year old, if not longer. i figured that this would be my test batch for my first time kegging...amazingly, the beer still smelled fine though i have no idea what it is.

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Ha, now that's pretty good! I think you are correct with your assessment of your sediment levels . On the plus side, it sounds like another good example of how we really don't have a lot to worry about autolysis. Of course, you'd better figure out what the batch is, otherwise it will wind up tasting great and you'll never be able to replicate it!

Set at 30 psi for 36 hours. Then set to 7-8 lbs serving pressure. Works every time.

I put the freshly racked keg in my freezer for a couple hours. Set at about 25 psi. Force carb for a couple minutes. Put back in freezer set to serving psi and wait a couple hours or serve the next day. I DO NOT have the patience to put it at serving pressure and wait 2 weeks. Who the hell wants to wait? There are two reasons I got out of bottling: 1- it sucks royally 2 - I am impatient and don't like to wait 2-3 weeks to try a damn beer.

It's not rocket science and people just need to relax, do what works for them, and have a home brew...

um...

...it's been 11 days...12 psi at @ 42 degrees...where is my carbonation?

honestly, there is slight carbonation but no head when i pour it. i'm using 5' of 1/4" for my beer line <---- is this the problem? let 'er sit a few more days? adjust my serving pressure (currently 12 psi)? start bottling again?

@SevenSeaScourge - Check out this site which is linked in a sticky at the top of the Kegging/Bottling thread too:

http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

That carb table should help you figure out a lot of what you need. The temperature column is the first one going down. That column is the temperature of your beer. Generally, it's best to crash cool your beer in your fridge/freezer before you add the CO2.

You can tell by the colors of the chart what the "standard" carbonation levels are for differing beer types. Obviously we don't want our IPA's to be carbed like a Stout. Do note, though, that even the "standard" has a broad swatch of options...It's your call. Now, once you've got the temp of your freezer and beer locked in, cross reference with the PSI settings across the top and the meet point is what the CO2 volume will be when you've hit the gas/liquid sat point.

So....assuming our fridge is 45 degrees and we're doing a standard ale (green on the chart) we can scan over and see that the PSI settings should be between 12-16 in order to give us the requisite 2.2-2.6 volumes of gas in carbonation.

The reason you see the big swath of options has to do with variables. Liquid will reach CO2 sat at different levels depending on elevation for example. It'll take more for a guy in Denver than a guy in San Diego, for example.

Now, based on what you said (11psi @42 degees)...you're on your way to awesome. But with only 11 days in, if you're at an elevation the beer could still be undercarbed and you won't have hit sat point yet. Sit on it for another couple days. If no improvement, you might want to check the regulator because the math is right which must mean some other kind of system failure.

That and there is an inherent difference between natural carbing and forced carbing. I can never match the type and feel of the bubbles with CO2 as when I bottle and prime with sugar.

SevenSeaScourge said:

um...

...it's been 11 days...12 psi at @ 42 degrees...where is my carbonation?

honestly, there is slight carbonation but no head when i pour it. i'm using 5' of 1/4" for my beer line <---- is this the problem? let 'er sit a few more days? adjust my serving pressure (currently 12 psi)? start bottling again?

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It's the the cause, really, but the 5' of 1/4" line has its own set of problems. First, you need 3/16" line. Second, 5' is too short. What happens is the beer comes out sort of like a firehose and the the co2 gets "knocked out" of the beer. So, the beer seems flat even if foamy.

So, the beer may very well be carbed up. But dispensing it with a short 1/4" line is not going to dispense it properly.

@yooper - i switched my beer line to 10' of 3/16"...still no head and still "flat"!!!?

@all - my fridge has a +/-2 degree fluctuation because it's not hooked up to a temp control <--- maybe this is a problem? i find it funny that everyone seems to have problems with too much foam - i'd be happy with a skosh of it. maybe i should just purge all the CO2 and start over?

i'm beginning to think that force carbing is a myth, on par with a board stretcher or knot wrench.

Have you ever successfully carbed a beer with the kegerator setup? It sounds like your gas line may be plugged and not enough pressure is getting to the keg. When you hit the ket purge valve, does it vent a lot of gas? Pop it up to 30psi and see if you can tell the pressure is greater. It takes me no more than 5-7 days to fully carbonate.

I set my psi at 60 and my beer is carbed by the next night.

@slipgate - this is my first time kegging. it vents plenty of gas when i pull the purge valve so i don't think the line is clogged. no leaks, either...just can't figure out why the damn thing won't carb (enough).

It's got to be the pressure and it's got to be leaking somewhere. Force carbing is a relatively simple chemistry equation. Kegs have liquid space and gas space. Introducing CO2 at pressure into the gas space will unevenly distribute the CO2 between gas and liquid. Fundamentally, it will seek to create saturation equilibrium. If you have the gas space filled with 12psi CO2, given enough time and a constant flow of CO2, the liquid WILL soak up enough CO2 to give it 12psi sat CO2 which will result in lovely foamy beer.

I wonder....you are leaving the CO2 "on" right? All the valves are blown full open, yes? If you pulled the gas release on the keg, it would blow off the pressure, but then the regulator would see the dip in pressure, kick in, and start auto-refilling the keg, right?

Sorry if it sounds like I'm asking silly questions, but I can't figure out why you'd have nothing at this point. I do, however, promise that force carbing beer is no myth. I had my first pull of a dry-oaked IPA last night. Tasty....

CO2 on?: check
valves open?: check
pulled purge and "auto-fill"?: check

it's not quite true to say i have nothing...there is slight carbonation but it evacuates my glass in 2-3 minutes. once in a while (every 5-6 pours) it will have a weak head on it but then the beer is flat. i'm burning through my whole keg just trying to figure this out...

...really, the only reason i'm this concerned is that i'm brewing all the beer for my upcoming wedding and was hoping to serve it on draught. i figured on having problems and sure enough, murphy shows up again...

...and an oaked IPA sound delicious. really, any beer with carbonation sounds delicious...

It's possible that your gauge is reading higher than it really is. If you turn the gas off and push the poppet on the end of the QD, can you get the needle to read zero? If you set the reg to the chart pressure, you'll reach FULL carbonation in about 2-3 weeks. You should notice significant carbonation by 10 days.

I myself have never bottled. I just keg, set pressure to 30 for 2 days then lower pressure to 10 for the rest of the week. I usually am drinking it by day 4.

Bobby_M said:

If you turn the gas off and push the poppet on the end of the QD, can you get the needle to read zero?

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haven't tried that...if i disconnect the QD, push the poppet, and the reg reads zero...and then reconnect it, do i set my psi back at 12? or will that double the pressure in the keg to 24 psi? - the reg is reading line pressure not keg pressure, right? probably a pretty stupid question but i'm known for those...

The reg is reading the pressure at the reg. My set up is CO2 tank (with valve), reg (with valve), line, keg. I have shut offs at the bottle and going out the reg. If I turn the valve at the reg off (technically it's after the reg, before the line) the reg will read the same psi because it's still housing pressure from the tank. If I shut the bottle off, it reads the same psi because the system is still pressurized. In theory, the beer will soak up that pressure, the needle would drop over time, etc...

When you reconnect, it would not double the psi. 12psi +12psi = 12 psi. So that part is easy. All it's doing is filling the vacuum that's not pressurized to 12psi.

Does your beer taste like beer, just flat? I wonder if something went wrong the beer? Your set up sounds good...

12 + 12 = 12: makes sense now - wasn't thinking in terms of there being a vacuum.

i, too, am suspecting the beer...it does taste like flat beer but it's been hiding in my closet for well over a year, maybe more.