Lager starters

If I make a 3q starter with lager yeast at 55 deg, how long will it take to reach high krausen?

If I do it this way, then I assume I can pitch the whole 3q.

If I do at room temp, I should wait until fermentation is complete and all the yeast has settled, decant and then pitch??

It will take some time to reach high krausen, don't worry. You could even make a bigger starter, most recommend at least a gallon for a lager that you want to cold start. By the way, I think it is better that you propagate at a cooler temp (55), in this way you are preparing the yeast for the wort. You should probably wait until the starter ferments and flocculates, then decant the beer and pitch the yeast, unless your starter is similar to the beer you will be pitching it in.

make all starters at room temperature ... you aren't making beer, you are making yeast ... chill the starter 24 hours before pitch and decant the beer off it.

teu1003 said:

make all starters at room temperature ... you aren't making beer, you are making yeast ... chill the starter 24 hours before pitch and decant the beer off it.

Click to expand...

I don't necessarily agree with this. When labs propagate lager yeast, they start out at room temp but eventually bring the yeast down to lager fermentation temp by the peak of it's growth. Yes, you are building the yeast up, but you don't want to propagate them at ale temp because they will produce a lot of esters, maybe fusels, phenols, etc. Plus warm temps will not prepare them for the wort that they will be feeding on. If you crash cool the yeast it might become shocked and exhibit a long lag time, which would be contradicting the whole reason you are making a starter.

I make lager starters at room temperature without incident. While the yeast may kick off esters and what not, I will decant most of that with the rest of the liquid. Whatever may be left is neglible to the five gallons or more that I pitch the yeast into.

I haven't had a problem with lag times, either. Often, I pitch and keep the carboy at room temperature until I see yeast activity (and I mean ANY yeast activity, including a few specs on the top) or about five hours. Then, I move the carboy to a 65F environment. Five or more gallons of wort will not cool down instantly, or even quickly. If I see any increased activity, I drop the cooler down to my target temperature. All has gone well.

I imagine chilling the yeast for 24 hours or so before pitching also will work, and it's much simpler.

Whatever you do, be good to your yeast (good pitching amounts, good pitching temperature, good aereation), and your yeast will be good to you.

I'm getting together with some experienced lager brewers this evening. If I think about it, I will ask what they do.


TL

I'm talking about the cold start method, though. Do you have to do a diactyl rest? With the cold start you usually don't have to since the wort started fermenting within the yeast strains "optimum" range and the yeast doesn't create a lot of diactyl.

Cos said:

If I make a 3q starter with lager yeast at 55 deg, how long will it take to reach high krausen?

If I do it this way, then I assume I can pitch the whole 3q.

If I do at room temp, I should wait until fermentation is complete and all the yeast has settled, decant and then pitch??

Click to expand...

Well, I've brewed a lot of lagers in the last 20 years, and tried about everything. I don't like throwing away 3 or 4 liters of wort, and waiting for the yeast to floc. and fall. Besides i want the yeast to already be accustomed to the beer wort when it is pitched.
So, first question, At 55f the starter will be in kraeusen the second day if you use a vial or 'smack-pack'. Second question: yes, you pitch the whole thing.

Assuming your post-boil volume is 5.25 gal, take 4 liters(qt) from the beer wort to the starter vessel, cool to 55f, and pitch the vial/pack. The rmainder of the wort is chilled to 32f to settle out the cold break. when the starter begins kraeusen, syphon the wort to a fresh fermenter and warm to 55f. Now your starter is really going, and fully used to the wort, so pitch. Now, you have 5 gal of fermenting wort, no loss, no yeast shock, and no d-rest to contend with.

Oh, well, i'm just typing to myself here anyway.
cheers....

That's what I do, Old Farmer. I just take some wort to start the yeast propagation and then pitch the whole thing into the main wort.

One last suggestion- pitch your slightly cooler starter into the wort. That is- I like to pitch my starter at 52 degees, into a 55 degree wort. It seems like that really gets it going. No more than that, though, because you don't want to thermally shock them. Just a wee bit warmer would do it.

I hear many people pitch warm, and then cool it and many others do the starter warm, etc, etc. so I don't think there's any real wrong way to look at this. I just always pitch at fermentation temperatures, ales or lagers, and I'm always happy with the results. I'm sure just as many people feel the same way about their technique.

Here is what I was planning on doing.
Do the starter at 55, 2 days before pitching and use the whole thing.

My boil is 4 gallons and post boil is probably 3. So adding straight tap water, or adding 4q of starter doesn't seem much different

If I cool the wort to room temp, transfer to primary and refrigerate until it is 55, then I can pitch.

I'm guessing it would take 24 hours to cool the wort from room temp to 55 in the frig.

Jamil Zainasheff has done a lot of experiments with starters and has compiled his experiences with opinions of people in the yeast business (folks at White Labs) might be worth a read: http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.htm