Whirlpool setup

I will be punching a hole in my brand new 15gal boil kettle (if it ever shows up...) with the intention of setting up a whirlpool during the cold break. I would like some input on my approach and see if maybe I am overlooking something obvious.

I was thinking about setting the return from the plate chiller higher than the high water mark causing the wort to splash a little. To force the whirlpool I was probably going to use a 90 fitting with a spare barbed hose connection I have laying around. I see two advantages to this: 1, the splashing will help aerate the wort a little and 2, pumping the cold wort on top should help with some of the temperature stratification. The risk, obviously, is i am risking contamination and maybe making a bit of a mess. To mitigate these issues, I was thinking of putting the lid on the boil kettle for the last couple of minutes of the boil to sanitize the air in the kettle. Do I have to worry about DMS (or whatever the right TLA is for the bad volitile aromatics) assuming a 60-90 minute boil? I would see this as safter than using forced oxygenation using a diffuser stone. I am dubious that a diffuser stone can be completely sanitized.

Would I be better having the fitting for the whirlpool installed in the bottom of the kettle?

I'm not so sure you can 'sanitize' the air. Splashing the wort won't cause infection. Don't put the lid on til your chilling if at all (I don't even bother anymore). You'll probably get better 'whirlpool' action having the outlet lower in the kettle. Just my 2 cents.

DMS is produced when the wort is over 140 degrees so you wouldn`t want to cover it before then and if you do cover it at all it will most likely negate the cooling effect of your whirlpool. I think it would be better at the top of the kettle because you are drawing from the bottom and filling from the top like a sparge basicly. If your pick up and return were both on the bottom you would be recirculating alot of the wort you have already cooled. Whether above the wort level or below......I don`t see why above the wort splashing would hurt anything in theory but under is how the original whirlpool chiller was made. Check out the picks here http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php


VB

A simple copper whirlpool arm (as shown in the whirlpool chiller link above) is a good way to test out different depths/angles without committing to a hole in your pot. Maybe once you test it out you'll want to drill a whirlpool return, but with my system, I got comfortable with the arm and just kept using it.

Maybe I ought to take a picture, but with my plate chiller and 15 gallon megapot, I basically just thread the return hose through one of the handles on the pot so that it angles down and against the side of the pot. Creates a perfect whirlpool.

So far as aeration is concerned, I have been experimenting with different methods but I usually just fan out the wort against the side of the fermenter when racking, then give it a good frothy stir with a sanitized whisk. On my last batch I stuck a funnel into the hole in the lid of my bucket where the stopper normally goes, and have a fine strainer that fits into it which did a pretty good job of removing any sign of trub in addition to aerating. It's probably not sufficient for a HUGE beer, but for the average beer it seems to work pretty well for me, and I haven't had any issues with laggy or stuck fermentations.

VegasBrew, that avatar is off the chain. The Packers owe you the trophy!

ScubaSteve said:

VegasBrew, that avatar is off the chain. The Packers owe you the trophy!

Click to expand...

I love my avatar.....HAHA!!

If you're doing a 60-90 minute boil, you'll probably be fine with DMS... Unless the grain bill is heavy on pilsner, definitely go for the 90min boil.

I vote for below the return to be below wort level. Are you going to be pumping this while the wort is hot/boiling? If so, I don't know how much aeration will be happening. Doesn't boiling push all the O2 out of solution? I don't know the answer for that but it's something to think about.

That being said I think pure O2 once the wort is chilled is the ideal way to aerate... Just my opinion though

I have seen this used in some set ups. It is used in the machining industry mostly for cutting and cooling fluid. It may be a bit hard to see but it is the blue tube that looks kinda diamond on top of diamond. It is flexible and will stay where you put it, this would be a way to try both ways. If you live near a large town there should be a machine shop where you can find it.

VB

VegasBrew said:

I have seen this used in some set ups. It is used in the machining industry mostly for cutting and cooling fluid. It may be a bit hard to see but it is the blue tube that looks kinda diamond on top of diamond. It is flexible and will stay where you put it, this would be a way to try both ways. If you live near a large town there should be a machine shop where you can find it.

VB

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That's a picture of loc-line. Most people use it for their sparge arm on the MLT. I haven't seen anyone use it for a whirlpool arm although it would be great for that. The only problem is they are only rated to 170F. I really wish they had a high temp applications as it would be an awesome solution. Vegas your avatar is definitely the best I have seen in a long time! :rockin:

This is the best distributor for them.
http://www.modularhose.com/Loc-Line-12-System/12-kits/50813

This is the actual manufacturer.
http://www.loc-line.com/

Ah, I have never seen one in action, only in pictures of different set ups, good to know they are only rated for 170f.....bummer, would work great I think for a whirlpool. Also the Blichmann Auto Sparge uses a flexable tube with a float on the end to keep the hose on top of the mash, worth looking at as well.

VB

brodie113 said:

If you're doing a 60-90 minute boil, you'll probably be fine with DMS... Unless the grain bill is heavy on pilsner, definitely go for the 90min boil.

I vote for below the return to be below wort level. Are you going to be pumping this while the wort is hot/boiling? If so, I don't know how much aeration will be happening. Doesn't boiling push all the O2 out of solution? I don't know the answer for that but it's something to think about.

That being said I think pure O2 once the wort is chilled is the ideal way to aerate... Just my opinion though

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I have also read that boiling pushed the O2 out of solution which is why I am even worrying about this. My idea was right before the end of the boil, turn on the pump and pump boiling wort through the chiller for a couple of minutes to sanitize it (BTW - anyone have an opinion on how long this should be? 5 minutes, 10?). Then, turn on the water from the tap and start the chill process. Since I have been an extract brewer up to this point I haven't worried about it because just topping off the carbouy seemed to be enough aeration (especially considering the top off was coming from a small hose line connected to my fridge water filter).

I have a 40-plate chiller that is supposed to be able to take 5 gallons of wort from 212 to 80 degrees anywhere from 2.5-5 minutes (depending on input temp) so that should make a really nice cold break. I just worry about using a bottom fed whirlpool and losing efficiency because all the cold wort is on the bottom.

Hopefully the rest of my gear will be here this Friday and I can run some tests. I will let everyone know what I find when I find it.

Before you punch a hole in your pot you could experiment a bit with a simple copper arm that goes over the side of the pot you could adjust it to different levels and see how it effects the cooling and whirlpool effect. Just running tests with boiling water should give you some decent data to look at. I am thinking just a simple piece of bent up 1/2 copper tube attached to the output of your pump.

lgoolsby said:

I have also read that boiling pushed the O2 out of solution which is why I am even worrying about this. My idea was right before the end of the boil, turn on the pump and pump boiling wort through the chiller for a couple of minutes to sanitize it (BTW - anyone have an opinion on how long this should be? 5 minutes, 10?). Then, turn on the water from the tap and start the chill process. Since I have been an extract brewer up to this point I haven't worried about it because just topping off the carbouy seemed to be enough aeration (especially considering the top off was coming from a small hose line connected to my fridge water filter).

I have a 40-plate chiller that is supposed to be able to take 5 gallons of wort from 212 to 80 degrees anywhere from 2.5-5 minutes (depending on input temp) so that should make a really nice cold break. I just worry about using a bottom fed whirlpool and losing efficiency because all the cold wort is on the bottom.

Hopefully the rest of my gear will be here this Friday and I can run some tests. I will let everyone know what I find when I find it.

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This is why:

Chapter 6 - Yeast

6.9.3 Aeration is Good, Oxidation is Bad

The yeast is the most significant factor in determining the quality of a fermentation. Oxygen can be the most significant factor in determining the quality of the yeast. Oxygen is both your friend and your enemy. It is important to understand when which is which.

You should not aerate when the wort is hot, or even warm. Aeration of hot wort will cause the oxygen to chemically bind to various wort compounds. Over time, these compounds will break down, freeing atomic oxygen back into the beer where it can oxidize the alcohols and hop compounds producing off-flavors and aromas like wet cardboard or sherry-like flavors. The generally accepted temperature cutoff for preventing hot wort oxidation is 80°F.

Oxidation of your wort can happen in several ways. The first is by splashing or aerating the wort while it is hot. Other beginning-brewing books advocate pouring the hot wort after the boil into cold water in the fermenter to cool it and add oxygen for the yeast. Unfortunately the wort may still be hot enough to oxidize when it picks up oxygen from the splashing. Pouring it down the side of the bucket to minimize splashing doesn't really help either since this increases the surface area of the wort exposed to the air. Thus it is important to cool the wort rapidly to below 80°F to prevent oxidation, and then aerate it to provide the dissolved oxygen that the yeast need. Cooling rapidly between 90 and 140°F is important because this temperature region is ideal for bacterial growth to establish itself in the wort.

In addition, if oxygen is introduced after primary fermentation has started, it may cause the yeast to produce more of the early fermentation byproducts, like diacetyl. However, some strains of yeast respond very well to "open" fermentations (where the fermenter is open to the air) without producing off-flavors. But even for those yeast strains, aeration or even exposure to oxygen after fermentation is complete can lead to staling of the beer. During racking to a secondary fermenter or to the bottling bucket, it is very important to prevent gurgling or splashing. Keep the siphon flowing smoothly by placing the outlet of the siphon hose below the surface of the rising beer. Decrease the difference in height between the two containers when you begin. This will slow the siphon rate at first and prevent turbulence and aeration until the outlet is beneath the surface.

To summarize, you want to pitch a sufficient amount of healthy yeast, preferably grown in a starter that matches your intended fermentation conditions. You want to cool the wort to fermentation temperature and then aerate the wort to provide the oxygen that the yeast need to grow and reproduce. Then you want to protect the beer from oxygen once the fermentation is complete to prevent oxidation and staling.

So says John Palmer, copied and pasted from http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-9-3.html

Put your inlet below the surface to reduce splashing.

VB

While John Palmer's book is a great reference, it is a bit dated. Hot side aeration has been pretty much turned into an urban legend. Old post with some good info from Revvy....

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/splashing-mash-tun-into-boil-kettle-214023/

and a youtube from a commercial brewery...even though it shows from mash tun to kettle....Never had a problem with hotside aeration. I whilpool and stir like crazy to get the most out of my immersion chiller and to aerate.

I use this from bargainfittings and get a great whirpool on 10g batches. I think the consensus for a good whirlpool is to get the return towards the bottom of the kettle.

Hammy71 said:

While John Palmer's book is a great reference, it is a bit dated. Hot side aeration has been pretty much turned into an urban legend. Old post with some good info from Revvy....

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/splashing-mash-tun-into-boil-kettle-214023/

and a youtube from a commercial brewery...even though it shows from mash tun to kettle....Never had a problem with hotside aeration. I whilpool and stir like crazy to get the most out of my immersion chiller and to aerate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3uyKjLTWJA

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Thanks Hammy!! I guess I need to open my mind to some new ideas. But that is the great thing about open conversation, you can ALWAYS learn something, I am guilty of subscribing to one idea and closing my mind to other ideas. You are correct....a good fermentation will clean most of the hot side aeration.

VB

bump

My Stout BK has the whirlpool return fairly low, I think around the 4 gallon mark which is not much above the outlet and you end up with quite a bit of stratification.

I wish it were below the wort level but a bit higher. I do 11 gallon batches so would like it to be at about the 9 gallon mark.