Little or No Head on Stouts

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glenn514

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My fellow brewers...

Some time ago, I made a batch called "Deception Cream Stout." Recently, I made a batch of "Oatmeal Stout." Neither beer forms a "head" when poured. There IS carbonation in the beer, but no head. In both cases, I used the customary 5 ounces...by weight...of sugar to prime before bottling. Should I have used slightly more sugar? The "DCS" was bottled on 1 March 2012; the "OS" was bottled on 7 July 2012. It would seem that enough time has passed for carbonation. Am I missing something???

glenn514:mug:
 
Is this with extract or all grain? I ask because it could be a pH issue if it's only your dark beers that are suffering.
 
I don't know those recipes, but I assume they have crystal malt and/or flaked wheat in them so you should have awesome head retention.

Do you normally get great head and head retention on pale ales and other beers?
 
@ Yooper...yes, I normally have a decent head form while pouring. While it doesn't last long, it DOES form. And I do NOT put my beer glasses in soapy water or run them through the dishwasher. I simply rinse them thoroughly with hot water.

@ phenry...both of these brews were all grain.

Last night, I had an Oatmeal Stout followed immediately by a Deception Cream Stout...WOW, what a difference in taste/flavors! But both taste EXCELLENT...and there IS carbonation in the beer. Just NO head whatsoever!

glenn514:mug:
 
@ Yooper...yes, I normally have a decent head form while pouring. While it doesn't last long, it DOES form. And I do NOT put my beer glasses in soapy water or run them through the dishwasher. I simply rinse them thoroughly with hot water.

@ phenry...both of these brews were all grain.

Last night, I had an Oatmeal Stout followed immediately by a Deception Cream Stout...WOW, what a difference in taste/flavors! But both taste EXCELLENT...and there IS carbonation in the beer. Just NO head whatsoever!

glenn514:mug:

Hmmm. I would try doing a "salt scrub" on the glass, just to rule that out. Just moisten the glass with some water, and sprinkle table salt on it. Rub it with your hand, doing the whole glass, like you would with scouring powder on a sink. Then rinse well. Dry with a clean soft cloth.

I assume you're using room temperature glasses, but if not make sure you do for the "testing". (It's tough, having to sample a beer at 9 AM, isn't it?!? :D)

As far as the actual grains, I'm sure those beers have crystal malt and/or flaked wheat or flaked barley. That should be sufficient. But in oatmeal stout, sometimes too much oatmeal can kill head retention. The oils in the oats can make a wonderfully silky mouthfeel, but that can interfere with the head, so I add flaked barley to make up for it.

How is the body of the beer? Does it feel medium to full? What were your mash temps?
 
Yooper...many thanks for your responses. After looking back at my notes, BOTH recipes came off of HBT. The Deception Cream Stout was all-grain, including 1 pound of Caramel/Crystal 60L. The Oatmeal Stout was a partial mash with specialty grains, including 1 pound of flaked oats and 1/2 pound of English dark crystal malt. Both recipes called for a mash temp of 152°F, and my notes tell me that I hit that either quite close or right on the button.

I will do the salt rub on one or two of my beer glasses to see if it makes a difference.

Any other thoughts/suggestions? Using the same glasses, both a Hefe and a Phat Tyre Amber clone produce a wonderful head. That's what got me wondering if I'd missed something.

glenn514:mug:
 
And I know that the priming sugar is thoroughly mixed into the beer before bottling, because I sanitize my mash paddle and gently stir the beer and sugar in the bottling bucket for a few minutes before I begin the bottling process. So, it's not a problem with some bottles not having enough priming sugar.

glenn514:mug:
 
If your other beers have normal head retention with all other variables the same and this is just a problem with your very dark beers, do try to look into your mash pH. Do you do any mineral additions to your brewing water? Try adding a little bit of calcium carbonate to your mash water next time you brew a stout. Somewhere between 1 or 2 grams is usually how much I add to mine, depending on the amount of roasted grains and volume.
 
I was having trouble with no head on several brews and finally traced it to the bottles which I had washed with oxiclean and didn't rinse well enough. Once I started rinsing better I got a pretty good head on the rest of the beers I brewed.
 
It's puzzling, but I don't think it's pH related otherwise there would be flavor impacts. (Plus, don't EVER add calcium carbonate to your mash- ever, ever, ever). If it is a pH issue, then there are better alternatives to raising mash pH, but I seriously doubt that is an issue. A too-low pH beer would taste a bit tart or sour, or have conversion issues, and not taste fantastic except with poor head retention.

Anyway, I'm at a loss. You could try checking your thermometer that you use in the mash, just to make sure you weren't mashing too low.

The next time you make a darker beer, add 1/2 pound flaked barley. You can use it in lighter beers also, but it can cause a haze so it's normally just used in darker colored beers where a haze won't be apparent.
 
It's puzzling, but I don't think it's pH related otherwise there would be flavor impacts. (Plus, don't EVER add calcium carbonate to your mash- ever, ever, ever). If it is a pH issue, then there are better alternatives to raising mash pH, but I seriously doubt that is an issue. A too-low pH beer would taste a bit tart or sour, or have conversion issues, and not taste fantastic except with poor head retention.

Anyway, I'm at a loss. You could try checking your thermometer that you use in the mash, just to make sure you weren't mashing too low.

The next time you make a darker beer, add 1/2 pound flaked barley. You can use it in lighter beers also, but it can cause a haze so it's normally just used in darker colored beers where a haze won't be apparent.

If you aren't supposed to add CaCO3 to your mash, then what are you supposed to do to get higher alkaline water? The first RIS I brewed had 2 lbs of roasted grains and another 1.5 lbs of dark crystal malts, and my mash pH ended up at like 5.0. Since then, raising the alkalinity of my mash water with CaCO3 for beers like that has kept me around 5.2-5.3.
 
I took one of my often-used beer glasses and did the salt rub as far as my fingers could reach inside of the glass. After letting it sit for a few minutes, it was obvious that the bottom of the glass...where my fingers could not reach...had some kind of residue on it, and the salt got rid of it where my fingers could reach. I got out a bottle brush, wetted the glass, shook in some salt, and put a dishrag around the brush bristles and scrubbed away for a bit. Noticeable improvement...but that still doesn't explain why those two stouts don't have a head, while my other beers do.

I'll try out the salt-rubbed glass at dinner tonight with one of the Oatmeal Stouts. Dinner is gonna be flounder stuffed with crab meat along with wild rice. The beer should pair nicely.

glenn514:mug:
 
If you aren't supposed to add CaCO3 to your mash, then what are you supposed to do to get higher alkaline water? The first RIS I brewed had 2 lbs of roasted grains and another 1.5 lbs of dark crystal malts, and my mash pH ended up at like 5.0. Since then, raising the alkalinity of my mash water with CaCO3 for beers like that has kept me around 5.2-5.3.

It's beyond the scope of this discussion as it's off topic, but there is a lot of info in the brewing science forum. You could post that exact question there, and get a great scientific answer from the water chemistry experts.

But the short answer is that chalk just won't really dissolve in the mash. If you must adjust the pH upwards, you could use something like pickling lime or baking soda. I don't like baking soda, as I think it has a flavor impact in even minute amounts but it does work.
 
It's beyond the scope of this discussion as it's off topic, but there is a lot of info in the brewing science forum. You could post that exact question there, and get a great scientific answer from the water chemistry experts.

But the short answer is that chalk just won't really dissolve in the mash. If you must adjust the pH upwards, you could use something like pickling lime or baking soda. I don't like baking soda, as I think it has a flavor impact in even minute amounts but it does work.

Sorry to continue this off topic discussion, but is there actually pickling lime available that doesn't have a bunch of other stuff added in? I have yet to find some plain old CaOH2 in stores. And since my water is already pretty high in sodium, chalk is basically my last option.
 
Sorry to continue this off topic discussion, but is there actually pickling lime available that doesn't have a bunch of other stuff added in? I have yet to find some plain old CaOH2 in stores. And since my water is already pretty high in sodium, chalk is basically my last option.

Yes. I bought some from Ebay. It's 100% pickling lime, made for pickles.
 
What is your mash program look like (temps, times, etc.)? Carbonation with no head and clean glassware sounds like you might be doing something to kill foam-forming proteins in your beer.

Also, how are you cleaning your bottles, kegs, lines, whatever, etc.?

Are your final gravities especially low?
 
Well, friends, apparently it is the glassware! I took one of my usual beer glasses, and used the salt-rub method of removing any layer of crud. Not only did the glass sparkle, but I got a decent head when I poured my dinnertime Oatmeal Stout last night. My son-in-law gave me some brand new beer mugs for Christmas...and they kill the head, too. Looks like I'll do the salt-rub thing to ALL of my beer-drinking glassware! And thanks for all the advice! This board just never fails to amaze me!

glenn514:mug:[now, cleaned with salt!]
 
I found this to be an informative thread:

>>As far as the actual grains, I'm sure those beers have crystal malt and/or flaked wheat or flaked barley. That should be sufficient. But in oatmeal stout, sometimes too much oatmeal can kill head retention. The oils in the oats can make a wonderfully silky mouthfeel, but that can interfere with the head, so I add flaked barley to make up for it.

>>http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/35-head-retention/697-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques
 
Well, friends, apparently it is the glassware! I took one of my usual beer glasses, and used the salt-rub method of removing any layer of crud. Not only did the glass sparkle, but I got a decent head when I poured my dinnertime Oatmeal Stout last night. My son-in-law gave me some brand new beer mugs for Christmas...and they kill the head, too. Looks like I'll do the salt-rub thing to ALL of my beer-drinking glassware! And thanks for all the advice! This board just never fails to amaze me!

glenn514:mug:[now, cleaned with salt!]

Ha! Glad it was such an easy fix. I was starting to think more and more about mashing technique (especially if you were multi-step mashing but I didn't think so) and what was going on.

I'm no expert on brewing, but I am a damn good dishwasher! :ban:
 
Took my four mugs and three glasses and proceeded to salt-rub them thoroughly yesterday afternoon. At dinner...fried chicken fingers and waffle fries with garden green beans...I poured myself a Phat Tyre Amber clone into one of the mugs...and behold, a head developed! A lovely, thick, rich head! Imagine that!

Again, my thanks for the responses.

glenn514:mug:
 
Hmmm. I would try doing a "salt scrub" on the glass, just to rule that out. Just moisten the glass with some water, and sprinkle table salt on it. Rub it with your hand, doing the whole glass, like you would with scouring powder on a sink. Then rinse well. Dry with a clean soft cloth.

I assume you're using room temperature glasses, but if not make sure you do for the "testing". (It's tough, having to sample a beer at 9 AM, isn't it?!? :D)

As far as the actual grains, I'm sure those beers have crystal malt and/or flaked wheat or flaked barley. That should be sufficient. But in oatmeal stout, sometimes too much oatmeal can kill head retention. The oils in the oats can make a wonderfully silky mouthfeel, but that can interfere with the head, so I add flaked barley to make up for it.

How is the body of the beer? Does it feel medium to full? What were your mash temps?

Thanks for this. Made all the difference in the head on my beers.
 
I'm glad I logged on today. I brewed a stout last March. After a few weeks of bottle conditioning, I opened one up. Same problem. Fast forward to today, in fact two nights ago, I opened one of my last two bottles of that stout. The head that formed was awesome. Not sure if I had the same issues, I do the same thing with my bottles, hot water rinse, then star san, then bottle. I guess that all some of these need is some aging time in the bottle. Anyone have some thought on this?
 
I'm glad I logged on today. I brewed a stout last March. After a few weeks of bottle conditioning, I opened one up. Same problem. Fast forward to today, in fact two nights ago, I opened one of my last two bottles of that stout. The head that formed was awesome. Not sure if I had the same issues, I do the same thing with my bottles, hot water rinse, then star san, then bottle. I guess that all some of these need is some aging time in the bottle. Anyone have some thought on this?

Yes, despite the OP solving the problem through some attention to glassware, I think there could be something about stouts. I haven't really had a problem since I've been kegging, though the foam still seems to be quite a bit greater after some conditioning. When I was bottling, I always seemed to have trouble getting any head on stouts until they had conditioned for quite a while. I have read that there are foam enhancers as well as foam killers in beer. With extended conditioning helping this, it seems likely that some of the foam killers could be dropping out over time.

Almost all of my stouts contained oatmeal, which is generally considered a foam enhancer, but also contains things (fat, I think) which can reduce foam.

There's a pretty nice article on this topic here:http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/35-head-retention/697-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques
 
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