Steeping/mashing with RO-DI water using LME?

Hello all!

I tried something yesterday that I want to get some feedback on... I've been going to the local market and getting 5 gallons of reverse osmosis de-ionized water for brewing, since I'm just doing extract+steeping grains at the moment. Obviously that water would not be conducive to mashing grains, being that it has no mineral content and such.

I understand that liquid malt extract is the result of properly mashed grains. When those grains are mashed, obviously the water used has the appropriate mineral content and pH conducive to mashing. As a result, the liquid malt extract contains those minerals to some extent.

What my crazy mind with bizarre logic led me to try was this: I added a small amount, probably 1 or 1.5 cups, of LME to my steeping water. I thought that by doing this, I might actually get some enzyme activity and some starch conversion in my steeping grains, kindof like a super-mini mash.

My brain is fried right now because I celebrated my birthday last night, but I wanted to get some thoughts and feedback on this subject. Thoughts? Questions? Anything would be appreciated. Cheers!

No enzymes in extract. It is completely mashed, and stabilized.

Right, I know that. I wasn't saying that I was using the extract for enzymes, only for minerals. I put a little LME in with my steeping grains (crystal 40, chocolate, etc), on the off chance that the mineral content of the LME would be conducive to mashing.

Jakemo said:

Right, I know that. I wasn't saying that I was using the extract for enzymes, only for minerals. I put a little LME in with my steeping grains (crystal 40, chocolate, etc), on the off chance that the mineral content of the LME would be conducive to mashing.

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I don't see the point at all. There aren't any enzymes to convert, and with the grains (which have minerals in them), you're only making "tea" and extracting the flavor and color. All the extract would do is make them sticky.

Steeping grains don't need to be mashed- so you can steep them. If you want to mash them, you need some grains with diastatic power- like two-row. Extract won't mash them (no enzymes for conversion) and won't give them minerals (which are in the grain in small amounts anyway).

I often use RO water for mashing and/or steeping. It's fine.

Lol... again, I wasn't using the extract for enzymes.

But thanks, Yooper, I guess I didn't think about whether the grains I was steeping actually had any diastatic power, which is decidedly the more important question.

So you say you use RO for mashing/steeping... would RO-DI water be OK for a partial mash? Or would I need to start worrying about chemistry and pH at that point? I want to start doing partial mash batches, but I'm trying to cover my bases first.

Jakemo said:

Lol... again, I wasn't using the extract for enzymes.

But thanks, Yooper, I guess I didn't think about whether the grains I was steeping actually had any diastatic power, which is decidedly the more important question.

So you say you use RO for mashing/steeping... would RO-DI water be OK for a partial mash? Or would I need to start worrying about chemistry and pH at that point? I want to start doing partial mash batches, but I'm trying to cover my bases first.

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Sure, you can use RO/DI for partial mashing. You can always worry about water chemistry if you want, but it usually is fine to start with RO water and add nothing. The grain has some minerals already, and you should have no problems converting. If you really really want to do "something", you could add 1/2 teaspoon of calcium chloride to 2.5 gallons of RO water and use that for mashing and sparging. That would bring up the calcium level of your mash without causing any harsh effects, as well as lower the pH of the mash a tad.

I've had a water test done on my tap water, and I find that my tap water is great, except for a high bicarb level. So for stouts, I use straight tap water but for everything else I use a mix of my own tap water and RO water. For a Bohemian pilsner, I use straight RO water (no salts at all). If you don't know your water chemistry, using straight RO water is a fine idea!

Awesome. Very helpful info, thanks a ton!

On another, but related, note, would the fact that the steeping grains aren't actually mashing (even in an Old Rasputin clone with like 3lbs of grains) be what's causing my consistently low OG's?

I'm using Hopville's recipe calculator to make my recipes, and it always spits out a range and a specific number for an OG, and I always come within 10-15 points, and just attributed it to incomplete mixing of water and wort when I measure my OG (even after a fairly thorough shaking). FG always ends up exactly where it's supposed to be though.

Jakemo said:

On another, but related, note, would the fact that the steeping grains aren't actually mashing (even in an Old Rasputin clone with like 3lbs of grains) be what's causing my consistently low OG's?

I'm using Hopville's recipe calculator to make my recipes, and it always spits out a range and a specific number for an OG, and I always come within 10-15 points, and just attributed it to incomplete mixing of water and wort when I measure my OG (even after a fairly thorough shaking). FG always ends up exactly where it's supposed to be though.

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Maybe Hopville is wrong? Just a thought! If you want to post a typical recipe, I'll see what Beersmith says.

Well... most recently, a Bert Grant's Perfect Porter clone. I've messed around a little bit with BeerSmith, but have had a very hard time making sure all of the grains are in there... I should probably put a little more effort into it, though. It's quite probable that Hopville just isn't as flexible as BeerSmith.

5# Light LME
12oz Chocolate Malt
10oz Crystal 40L
1.5oz Briess Cherrywood Smoked Malt
1oz Carafa III

Calc. OG 1.045 (1.040-1.047), measured 1.035
Calc. FG 1.012 (1.010-1.013)

/off topic

Hopville sounds like a good idea for a facebook game. I"d play!

/on topic

Jakemo said:

Well... most recently, a Bert Grant's Perfect Porter clone. I've messed around a little bit with BeerSmith, but have had a very hard time making sure all of the grains are in there... I should probably put a little more effort into it, though. It's quite probable that Hopville just isn't as flexible as BeerSmith.

5# Light LME
12oz Chocolate Malt
10oz Crystal 40L
1.5oz Briess Cherrywood Smoked Malt
1oz Carafa III

Calc. OG 1.045 (1.040-1.047), measured 1.035
Calc. FG 1.012 (1.010-1.013)

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Just the LME should give you 1.036, so I think you're probably right. The Hopville calculator isn't giving you a correct reading.

I always kinda had a hunch, since the OG and abv would rise as I added in steeping grains... I just didn't really care enough to follow up on it... But when I start doing partial-mash, it'll be accurate I suppose.

It does get IBUs and color right, so that's cool...

Now I'm confused; I went back and checked the recipes and measurements for my other batches. The hopville-calculated OG and the measured OG were usually pretty close to each other. My last one was within 2 points, and had 1.5 lbs of steeping grain. My imperial stout was even close and had like 3lbs of steeping grains...

What gives?

Ba-bump ba-bump

Not sure, but to get back on the water issue, I have heard it suggested to use distilled/RO water for extract. The idea is that the extract has minerals left in it from when it was originally wort. You don't want to add extra minerals to it.

Extract with steeping. I would still go with DI/RO.

Excessive alkalinity in brewing water used with extracts will dull the flavor of the resulting beer. Brewing extract beers with DI/RO water is OK and the mineral profile of the original mashing water will be reproduced. That doesn't mean that the resulting water profile will be ideal for the beer you're brewing, but at least it won't have to fight the excess alkalinity if that is present in your tap water.

You can still add moderate amounts of either sulfate or chloride containing minerals to help produce the flavor characteristics in your extract beer when using DI/RO water. You should know the profile of your tap water before you begin adding any minerals in order to avoid overdosing the beer and creating soda-water beer.

Awesome info, all. Thank you. So if, on my next batch, I wanted to reduce the LME by 1# and do a mini-mash to make up for that, could I add a tiny amount of LME to RO-DI water to get a good mineral content for mini-mashing? Or should I acquire the necessary minerals and salts to adjust the water chemistry?

Basically, I'm really trying to avoid using my tap water, I don't care for it at all. It doesn't taste very good, and I'm not sure I want to use it for my beer (haven't gotten a water profile yet tho)

If you want minerals, why not buy spring water? Assuming your tap water has bad flavor of course.

I could do that, I'll just have to check and see what's available.

The other reason I get RO-DI is it's $0.25 a gallon

I can't remember who it was. Palmer? Papazian? Talking about AG they said if the water tastes good then just brew with it. If you don't like your tap water then buy spring water and brew with that. It may not be perfect for a dry stout or Bo pils but it will work.

jeepinjeepin said:

I can't remember who it was. Palmer? Papazian? Talking about AG they said if the water tastes good then just brew with it. If you don't like your tap water then buy spring water and brew with that. It may not be perfect for a dry stout or Bo pils but it will work.

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Almost any water will 'work' for brewing. Its when a brewer is trying to make a better beer that the intricacies of brewing water chemistry rear their head.