Risks of 1 month in primary & no secondary

So after learning on this forum that I don't need to rack to a secondary if I'm pitching enough good yeast and that my beer might actually taste better after 1 month on the yeast cake in the primary...off I went to my local homebrew shop. I told the shop "experts" my plan and they flat out told me it was a bad idea. They mentioned 2 risks that I hadn't heard of previously. I'd like some feedback from those that are not using secondaries:

(1) The upper ring of residue from after the krausen falls may mould if left too long. I said "even with no oxygen". They said "yep". Anyone seen mould from this? I'm thinking "if I sanitized...how could there be mould, right?"

(2) autolysis (the bogeyman) is still an issue if you are not controlling your temperature (i.e. using a temp-controlled room or fridge etc). A hot fermentation can cause the dreaded burnt rubber taste from yeast autolysis. This is especially so if you overpitch your yeast. This one scared me. I ferment at room temp...whatever my apartment happens to be. Anyone experienced autolysis who didn't control temp? Anyone not experience autolysis who didn't control temp?

I was going to buy an extra primary bucket and they scared me out of it...an act that is against their economic interests. Any thoughts or is everyone already convinced that secondaries are a thing of the past? Am I beating a dead horse here?

brewzombie said:

Am I beating a dead horse here?

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Yep.

I've left a beer sitting in the primary for six months. No Yeast. No autolysis could be detected. The beer tasted great.

This board is full of brewers experiences (you've obviously seen many of them).

The hombrew shop guys might not be motivated by profit. They might just still be towing the line of what was previously the "way things are done."

Just try it for yourself for one batch and see. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with the results.

wont hurt a thing. keep temps stable. vodka in the air lock.

The latest BYO, The Wizard says that autolysis is much more of a problem for commercial brewers because the yeast cake is so much larger. It follows that its not nearly as common for homebrewers.

mold without oxygen? wow... maybe they're nasa scientists who know something... molds are aerobes, which mean they need oxygen; sometimes very little, but they do. we've all left beer in the fermenter for a month or more; depends on the style/yeast

They're going by conjecture and out dated information, and plain old fashioned yeast fear. Or they're just idiots....You'll find that not every proprieter reads every forum or book or listens to every podcast, so the last book or info they may have learned may be in Papazian from 30 years ago. They also may only brew kits. Or simply JUST be of the "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" mentality.

But not every person, especially one of those "you can't teach an old dog" types aren't going to be up on the latest ideas.

Remember to a lot of LHBS'er or employees, it is only a job..not an obsession...so they are not always as necessarily passionate, or zealous learning new things, or trying new techniques, like we are....SOme even though they have been in the business forever, may never had progressed in the hobby beyond extract kits...some may rarely brew at all.

So often it is not surprising that we know more or are at least in touch with more info that someone who does it for a living....

This is an ever evolving hobby...Places like this is where you find the most state of the art information/wisdom about brewing, because of the sheer number of us trying new things, hearing new things, and even breaking new ground and contributing to the body of info on the hobby...Look at some of that inventions that came out of here, and then ended up later in BYO articles by our members...

It is podcasts and forums like this where you will find a lot more state of the art, or current views, and even scientific information...I mean if Jamil, John Palmer or Papazian even farts on a podcast, one of us beergeeks are going to start a thread on it within 10 minutes.

Remember- It is HUMAN nature to scorn that which we don't understand... It even happens on here sometimes, when someone attempt to break new ground, or suggest something different from common wisdom (we still get people who scorn the idea of long primaries, and still believe in autolysis)...but it really is not the norm here.

But not necessarily "out there" in the world of Home brew shops.

You'll find that more and more recipes these days do not advocate moving to a secondary at all, but mention primary for a month, which is starting to reflect the shift in brewing culture that has occurred in the last 4 years, MOSTLY because of many of us on here, skipping secondary, opting for longer primaries, and writing about it. Recipes in BYO have begun stating that in their magazine. I remember the "scandal" it caused i the letters to the editor's section a month later, it was just like how it was here when we began discussing it, except a lot more civil than it was here. But after the Byo/Basic brewing experiment, they started reflecting it in their recipes.

You will find that all the information you need to understand that topic and to have ALL your questions answered is here, there really is nothing on the topic that hasnlt been covered in this thread.

To secondary or not.....
FYI Last week I finally bottled the chocolate mole porter that I brewed on 5-27-10. I had car issues and then health issues and other things that prevented me from getting around to it til last night.

SO it is nearly 5 months old. And it tastes amazing, and is crystal clear (at least as clear as a jet black beer can be) and tastes perfect. No off flavors or aromas whatsoever.

I don't think I've ever had a beer that was so clear...and the yeast cake was so tight that it was like concrete in the bottom, and I racked off what appeared to be the entire 5 gallons of liquid, and almost no sediment or hops.

I'll know more in a month when it's carbed and conditioned, but I think it is going to be perfect when it is done. I'll have some BJCp judge friends blind taste it to see. But I don't think there is a hint of "autolysis" or other nasty nonsense in there.

There's enough info on here, in BYO magazine and on Basic brewing to back this stuff up...None of their arguments really hold much water anymore. They're about 5 years and several brewer's medals (even mine) behind the times.

And yes,



We've done it to death here, there is little that already hasn't been said, asked, argued, and answered on this topic...it's all here. And easily searchable. It really is a done topic...it's all down to simply being a matter of choice anymore. Secondary, don't secondary it doesn't really matter, both ways work fine.

...nevermind

Thanks everyone! I knew this issue had been debated to death, but I wasn't sure the mould & over-pitch/heated yeast thing had been covered. I did search the forum, but didn't come across those exact details. I'm going back to get that primary!

Also: nice animated pic Revvy!

I'm finally jumping from the secondary camp.

I've got my Brown in the primary right now, and that's where it's going to stay!

My only concern is I only threw in a package of Safale - 05 (no starter), I hope it ferments enough. Part of my old thinking was that transferring to secondary will stir up the yeast and keep it going.

dunnright00 said:

I'm finally jumping from the secondary camp.

I've got my Brown in the primary right now, and that's where it's going to stay!

My only concern is I only threw in a package of Safale - 05 (no starter), I hope it ferments enough. Part of my old thinking was that transferring to secondary will stir up the yeast and keep it going.

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1 package of s05 should be fine for a brown. My IPAs are a little over 7% and I normally use 1 package. I haven't noticed a difference between 1 package of dry yeast vs a 1 liter starter.

I have a funny video that someone made about a LHBS shop. Check it out!


I'm not saying that the store you went to was this bad, but the video is just hilarious. The one and only LHBS in Vancouver is fairly well stocked, and despite the neighborhood, I find myself down there often seeking advice. They seem to have fairly strong opinions but I'll take product choice over PC anyday.

BTW, are you bringing your beer to VanBrewers? If not then check it out, the meeting is tomorrow night (wednesday) and an excellent opportunity to meet other home brewers. If yes, then I'll see you there. You could bring a commercial beer if you are out of stock.

HG

HighGravity said:

I have a funny video that someone made about a LHBS shop. Check it out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNm_KCnEAEs

I'm not saying that the store you went to was this bad, but the video is just hilarious. The one and only LHBS in Vancouver is fairly well stocked, and despite the neighborhood, I find myself down there often seeking advice. They seem to have fairly strong opinions but I'll take product choice over PC anyday.

BTW, are you bringing your beer to VanBrewers? If not then check it out, the meeting is tomorrow night (wednesday) and an excellent opportunity to meet other home brewers. If yes, then I'll see you there. You could bring a commercial beer if you are out of stock.

HG

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Hilarious video! I hope I didn't sound like that when I was in the LHBS. They ARE very opinionated at the Vancouver store and constantly tell me I don't need to make yeast starters with Wyeast Propagator so that should tell me something I guess.

I hadn't heard of VanBrewers before. I may check that out with my brewing buddies one of these days.

Cheers.

Apparently autolysis is an issue in large commercial fermenters where there is a large weight i.e. vertical column of beer sitting on the yeast cake, so the heat and weight of the beer combine to cause the yeast autolysis, on a homebrew scale this is not an issue.
This is according to a study done by a brewery in EU.

brewzombie said:

(1) The upper ring of residue from after the krausen falls may mould if left too long. I said "even with no oxygen". They said "yep". Anyone seen mould from this? I'm thinking "if I sanitized...how could there be mould, right?"

(2) autolysis (the bogeyman) is still an issue if you are not controlling your temperature (i.e. using a temp-controlled room or fridge etc). A hot fermentation can cause the dreaded burnt rubber taste from yeast autolysis. This is especially so if you overpitch your yeast. This one scared me. I ferment at room temp...whatever my apartment happens to be. Anyone experienced autolysis who didn't control temp? Anyone not experience autolysis who didn't control temp?

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I figure I should tackle these two extrememly idiotic arguments, just because I don't want some poor schlub to actually believe this stuff, since their arguments have little scientific basis to begin with.

1) Oh yeah in 4 years of doing it, I have never seen a speck of mold on the krauzen ring.

This pretty well sums up that idea

mold without oxygen? wow... maybe they're nasa scientists who know something... molds are aerobes, which mean they need oxygen; sometimes very little, but they do. we've all left beer in the fermenter for a month or more; depends on the style/yeast

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I mean there is this whole mess of co2 filling up the headspace. You know that thing called an airlock that people worship...well when it blips it is releasing excess co2, and that little hole in the lid is several inches ABOVE the krausen ring.....so therefore the ring of krausen must be enveloped in a space of co2...so how the hell could mold develop if there's no bloody oxygen?????


And even with opening the bucket....Which I really hardly do anymore. STILL no mold has developed.

2) I don't have any temp control except a swamp cooler which I only use during the summer. And never had the "dreaded autolysis.'

In fact the beer that I just bottled after 5 months only spent the first month or two sitting in a swamp cooler. The rest of the time it spent in my loft anywhere from the 70's to maybe a few days in the 80's and back again.

Temp control is really only an issue for the first week of fermentation (actually the first 72 hours of initial fermentation, but since a lagtime of 72 hours is normal, call it a week to be safe.) That's when off flavors from too hot of yeast can occur.

But most of us don't have temp spikes anyway and even then all we need to do is some rudimentry swamp cooler setup.

And like stated above many brewers on here have been doing this for 4-5 years, there are also folks who have said that they've been doing long primary for over a decade even before this discussion has become fashionable with no issue.

Like I said earlier they are talking out of their a$$es just throwing up the same old arguments that even Palmer had to back pedal on.

I really hold little faith in the whole "utolysis is an issue in large commercial fermenters where there is a large weight i.e. vertical column of beer sitting on the yeast cake, so the heat and weight of the beer combine to cause the yeast autolysis," argument either. It seems quite funny that Palmer wrote that whole autolysis panic section of how to brew all those years back Then we start to disprove it on here for years. Suddenly the homebrewing "media" BYO and Basic brewing and other podcasts start exploring this and backing up what we've been saying and suddenly Palmer may be wrong.

So instead of saying, "hey I just regurgitated the common wisdom of the day that Papazian and other's before me said, and it looks like modern yeasts aren't as easily prone to autloysis these days, because people are clearly skipping secondary and opting for long primaries." He opted instead to come up with that stuff about weight in commercial brewing vessels. It seems a little "too convenient" now. Especially if you think that wouldn't the amount of yeast inside a large commercial vessel proportionate to the amount of beer in there? SO basically you would have the same amount of "beer yeast pressure" going on. Like if you had 1/2 gallon of yeast trub in a 10 gallon batch for example, then you would have 1 gallon of yeast for a 20 gallon batch and so on...although the pressure of the beer would be larger in the bigger vessel, so would the layer of yeast it is sitting on?

*shrug*

It doesn't really matters...what matters is that long primaries work. And autoysis isn't a given, especially for the month that many of us leave our beers for.

I got autolysis in my continuous cider culture after about 4-5 months at ambient Florida room temperatures (i.e. 75-80 degrees). So leaving it on the yeast for a month or six weeks should not have a significant adverse effect.

*yawn*

20 extract batches done here so far. Found out about the "four weeks in primary" on my 3rd batch, done all the rest that way (except for an RIS and a Porter that I racked to secondary for additions).

Also, fermenting in my uncontrolled "ambient Florida" home temperatures of 78F in summer, 68F in winter. No mold, no autolysis.

Nothing to see here; move along.

When people tell me ******** like that, I like to send it right back to them. I say:
So, you personally have had mould in your primary from leaving it too long, and you personally have had a beer ruined by dead yeast?

Guarantee buddy will say something like, "A good friend of mine told me this happened... etc".

Same thing goes for when someone tells you Ghosts are real. I love watching people squirm when they can't actually back up what they are so sure of. I am guilty of it too, no doubt. Its still entertaining

Good for you go for the primary only, so much less work if nothing else.

jjones17 said:

Same thing goes for when someone tells you Ghosts are real. I love watching people squirm when they can't actually back up what they are so sure of. I am guilty of it too, no doubt. Its still entertaining

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Long primaries have improved my overall beer quality and eliminated the acetaldehyde issue I was getting with temperature controlled ale fermentations combined with pulling the beer off the yeast too soon.

I do, however have to disagree with you on one point. I'm pretty sure ghosts are real. I've never seen one myself mind you. But I did hear it from a good friend of mine whose cousin saw one in South America once.

Well, that and mom said you can knock a girl up by holding hands.

But I'm totally with you on the long primary thing.

Revvy: "Remember to a lot of LHBS'er or employees, it is only a job..not an obsession...so they are not always as necessarily passionate, or zealous learning new things, or trying new techniques, like we are....SOme even though they have been in the business forever, may never had progressed in the hobby beyond extract kits...some may rarely brew at all."

This is the operative statement, I believe. We may be pleasantly surprised when we get expertise about paint from the guy in the True Value, or about gigabytes from the salesperson at Best Buy. But we're not entitled to it, and foolish if we take dogmatic statements without checking. And, as has been further noted, there is more than ample documentation that primary-only fermentation works just fine. It converted me about a year ago, and the beer is great.

man, there has been a lot of these threads lately, what's going on?

It would appear there's a big shift underway amongst the homebrew community, at least here on HBT.

I've got a dark ale in primary now coming up on three weeks. My dilemma is should I bottle it at three, or wait for four. Got an itch to brew up some more pale ale this weekend, so I may end up getting another primary bucket.

AngerManagement said:

It would appear there's a big shift underway amongst the homebrew community, at least here on HBT.

I've got a dark ale in primary now coming up on three weeks. My dilemma is should I bottle it at three, or wait for four. Got an itch to brew up some more pale ale this weekend, so I may end up getting another primary bucket.

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I usually bottle between 3 and 5 weeks straight from the primary. The determining factor for me is usually which weekend I have the most time to bottle and if bottling and not kegging, whether I remembered to go by the LHBS and pick up caps.

My beers' flavor and stability have improved noticeably since going to a longer primary only fermentation.

And I have 5 fermenters and/or secondaries. So free space is not usually a concern.

All I can say is that I am glad I found this forum before I even lit the stove for my 1st batch. I have learned so much and because of the no secondary thing I all of the sudden have 4 vessels for primary!

AngerManagement said:

It would appear there's a big shift underway amongst the homebrew community, at least here on HBT.

I've got a dark ale in primary now coming up on three weeks. My dilemma is should I bottle it at three, or wait for four. Got an itch to brew up some more pale ale this weekend, so I may end up getting another primary bucket.

Click to expand...

The shift is only underway for those that have not read about it yet...

Depending on the OG of the brew, I give it 3 weeks in primary, or longer. I do sample/test the lower OG brews (lower OG for me, which is anything under about 1.060) at two weeks to see what's going on. If it's looking good, I let it go another week and check again. Still good? Let it go at least a few more days and see (or let it go the full 4 weeks)... Larger brews, go as long as they need. Often 4 weeks in primary, if not longer. Racking only for flavor additions when I'm looking to get the brew off of a previous addition.

I would suggest getting enough primary fermenters to brew every two weeks. Figure you could have a brew sitting in one for 4-6 weeks, so get at least three. Then you'll be happy, and only a short time away from something coming off of yeast, and going into bottles.

Brewing every two weeks also helps to build up the all-important pipeline. That also means that when you're actually starting to drink one brew, you have one going being brewed, one still in primary, and another going into bottles. The circle of a brewer's life... I do need to get one or two more primaries still (I have three, with a corny that can be used for aging)... That way I can still have a good circle running, even with a big brew in the works.