Film on top of beer

I cracked open my first homebrew today! It is a 1 gallon batch of irish red from northern brewer. As of today, the beer has been bottled for one week.

There is some sort of film or debris floating on top of the beer. Anyone know what this could be? The beer tastes and smells ok at first but noticed a little bit of sour or tart as it warmed up.

I'm far from an expert on contamination, but I can say I've never seen that on my beer. The sour/tart taste worries me, too. I hope somebody more knowledgeable can answer.

Only one bottle so far? If it's a contamination, it might be confined to one or two bottles that didn't quite get cleaned properly. What was your fermentation schedule like? How long was it in the carboy/bucket? See anything on the surface at that time?

Open another and see what it looks and tastes like.

Yeah Just one since it was my one week check after bottling. The bottles were brand new and I rinsed them using a bottle blaster and then sanitized using a vinator with star san. Fermentation was 2 weeks in primary and then bottled. It was very aggressive for about a day and then died down. There was no film on top of the beer in the primary jug.

By chance how and what did you use to clean your fermenting equipment?

Mixed easy clean in 1 gallon jug. Then poured it into a pan with all the other equipment (siphon, tube, airlock, cap, scissor, yeast packet). Easy clean is what northern Brewer included in the starter kit. It says it is sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate. How does that compare to other products I hear talked about a lot (pbw, star san, etc)?

I used Starsan on everything. Even in bottles. Just dumped out and shook each one just before filling each one. Very happy with results

That certainly looks like the forming of a pellicle, which means... there is an infection in your beer. The tartness that's developing is another sign.

Drink up fast!

Easy Clean is NOT a sanitizer. It's a "No-rinse" oxygen-based cleanser, similar to "Oxiclean Free," which can be bought as a generic for a fraction of the price of Easy Clean. I put "No-rinse" in quotes, as I would always rinse with water after using such a product! It leaves washing soda behind, which I actually use a lot of. But I would not want to drink that or it getting in my beer.

Starsan is the best and easiest to use sanitizer, IMO. A working solution lasts weeks, months, even when it gets cloudy. As long as your equipment is wet with Starsan (or the foam) it's sanitized.

Remember, you can't sanitize unless it's clean. So you have to do both.

That beer is in a Captain Lawrence glass. The Captain has been hosting our homebrew club for years--they're very good to us. If you're local and want to get some more opinions, our next meeting is Tuesday 2/28 7pm at CLB, bring a bottle or two.

Until then, I agree, looks like a pellicle, add the tartness, and it sounds infected.

Do the other bottles have that same film on top of the liquid in the neck?

IslandLizard - I wish Northern Brewer told me I should rinse! I will use star san for everything next time. My mix of star san got cloudy immediately..Which I think may be due to the Chicago water. I tested the pH and it was 3 which is good, right?

Satph, Nice catch on the glass! Thank you for the invite but I am no longer local and live in Chicago. I grew up in the same town as Scott. Whenever I'm back home I always grab some Captain Lawrence!

I shined a light into another bottle and there is stuff floating at the top 1/2 to 1 inch of the bottle. Would that be pellicle?

Here is a pic of one of the bottles:

aartese said:

IslandLizard - I wish Northern Brewer told me I should rinse!?

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Maybe that's part of their Disruptive Growth strategy.

aartese said:

I shined a light into another bottle and there is stuff floating at the top 1/2 to 1 inch of the bottle. Would that be pellicle?

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I do lots of intentional sours, some of which I bottle. Sometimes I'll see a pellicle reform in the bottle after a couple weeks. Usually it's a thin film, but your bottle picture definitely looks suspicious.

Beers that are stored long term for aging such as barrel aged sours form a layer on top that is a pellicle. There is some thought that your beer is showing signs (and tastes) of a beer that is both forming a pellicle and tasting sour. In some cases brewers are going for this, however in your case, I don't think it is desired. Possibly the yeast you used had a problem from the lab, or more likely, you learned a valuable lesson in cleaning and sanitizing. I'd still drink it since it probably won't hurt you, but if you end up in the ER, I guess I was wrong! LOL...it should be safe!!

EDIT: I just saw the new pic as I was posting. That does not look like a typical pellicle I have seen. Something is suspicious there.

aartese said:

IslandLizard - I wish Northern Brewer told me I should rinse! I will use star san for everything next time. My mix of star san got cloudy immediately..Which I think may be due to the Chicago water. I tested the pH and it was 3 which is good, right?

Satph, Nice catch on the glass! Thank you for the invite but I am no longer local and live in Chicago. I grew up in the same town as Scott. Whenever I'm back home I always grab some Captain Lawrence!

I shined a light into another bottle and there is stuff floating at the top 1/2 to 1 inch of the bottle. Would that be pellicle?

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Aren't there usage directions on the jar/bucket of Easy Clean?
From NB's website:
The phrase "Best when used..." is deceiving, since Easy Clean has NO real sanitizing capabilities by brewery or food handling standards. The active ingredient is sodium percarbonate, not sure of its percentage, or any other agents that have been added. Look at the label or the "manufacturer's" (read "repackager's") spec sheet.

As I said before, buy Oxiclean Free or some odor free generic for far less than half the price (Dollar Store, Walmart, etc.). After the (overrated) oxygen has been released, all that's left is washing soda (NOT baking soda).

I use regular washing soda (aka "laundry booster") for most of my brewery cleaner, and homemade PBW where I need the extra oomph of the metasilicate (Ace hardware).

Mix Starsan with distilled or RO water and it will stay clear for longer. Mine gets cloudy after a day, and we have fairly soft water. It still keeps working so I'm not worried. Yes, the pH should be 3 or lower for it to be effective.

I keep Starsan mix for a few weeks in a bucket, and dump it when it gets too gray or grimey.

One more thing. Cleaning is not the same as sanitizing. They're 2 separate processes using different chemicals and methods. Starsan is by far the easiest to use and is truly no-rinse. So after cleaning your equipment that touches beer or chilled wort, rinse with water to remove the cleaner residue, then use Starsan to sanitize it. As long as the surface stays wet with Starsan it's sanitary. Apply Starsan by dunking, spraying, or mopping with a small clean cloth.

That picture doesn't look like a pellicle. Pellicle in the bottle is usually a thin tight waxy film on the top only. Looks like coagulated proteins or some other material rising to the top. (guessing) I'd say it's not a problem.

No doubt I could be wrong. I'm always amazed at wild and wooly growths I see in the Pellicle Photo Collection.

One more thing about cleaning bottles. I always use a bottle brush and warm/hot water, with some washing soda, to clean the inside. Then rinse well with the jet bottle washer. Right before filling with beer they get dunked into a bucket with Starsan, and drained. Bottle caps get a soak in Starsan too.

I find the brushing is essential to help remove any clinging residue.

aartese said:

IslandLizard - I wish Northern Brewer told me I should rinse! I will use star san for everything next time. My mix of star san got cloudy immediately..Which I think may be due to the Chicago water. I tested the pH and it was 3 which is good, right?

Satph, Nice catch on the glass! Thank you for the invite but I am no longer local and live in Chicago. I grew up in the same town as Scott. Whenever I'm back home I always grab some Captain Lawrence!

I shined a light into another bottle and there is stuff floating at the top 1/2 to 1 inch of the bottle. Would that be pellicle?

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Go buy 5 gallons of distilled water mix your starsan put water back into jugs. Should do you a couple of brews

frozengator said:

Go buy 5 gallons of distilled water mix your starsan put water back into jugs. Should do you a couple of brews

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I don't quite understand using distilled water if your tap water is on the soft side.

RO water from Walmart etc. runs $0.39 a gallon, so ~$2 for 5 gallons. "Distilled" is 2x the price or more.

Starsan is $20-24 for 32oz, less than $0.80 an ounce, which is the dosage for 5 gallons.

Does the Starsan last at least 2-5x as long using RO or distilled water instead of using regular (softish) tap water? Or even hard water. 5 Stars has not been very helpful in disclosing when Starsan "really" stops working. We can all guess why they don't.

passedpawn said:

That picture doesn't look like a pellicle. Pellicle in the bottle is usually a thin tight waxy film on the top only. Looks like coagulated proteins or some other material rising to the top. (guessing) I'd say it's not a problem.

No doubt I could be wrong. I'm always amazed at wild and wooly growths I see in the Pellicle Photo Collection.

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I was thinking it looked a little coagulate-y too. Also kind of looks like precipitate, but I would expect to to be sitting on the bottom of the bottle.

Morrey said:

EDIT: I just saw the new pic as I was posting. That does not look like a typical pellicle I have seen. Something is suspicious there.

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microbusbrewery said:

I do lots of intentional sours, some of which I bottle. Sometimes I'll see a pellicle reform in the bottle after a couple weeks. Usually it's a thin film, but your bottle picture definitely looks suspicious.

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passedpawn said:

That picture doesn't look like a pellicle. Pellicle in the bottle is usually a thin tight waxy film on the top only. Looks like coagulated proteins or some other material rising to the top. (guessing) I'd say it's not a problem.

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Definitely doesnt look like pellicle from the pics i've been seeing. Other ideas?

microbusbrewery said:

I was thinking it looked a little coagulate-y too. Also kind of looks like precipitate, but I would expect to to be sitting on the bottom of the bottle.

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What could cause proteins or precipitate?

IslandLizard said:

Best when used in combination with a dedicated sanitizer like StarSan.
[/INDENT]
The phrase "Best when used..." is deceiving, since Easy Clean has NO real sanitizing capabilities by brewery or food handling standards. The active ingredient is sodium percarbonate, not sure of its percentage, or any other agents that have been added. Look at the label or the "manufacturer's" (read "repackager's") spec sheet.

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Yes, I think that is what mislead me into thinking I was fine with just soaking in the easy clean.


Thanks for all the tips on cleaning and sanitizing!

aartese said:

Definitely doesnt look like pellicle from the pics i've been seeing. Other ideas?


What could cause proteins or precipitate?


Yes, I think that is what mislead me into thinking I was fine with just soaking in the easy clean.


Thanks for all the tips on cleaning and sanitizing!

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Put one in the fridge for a few days and I'll bet it settles to the bottom.

The malt and yeast are made of proteins. They are the cause of haze in beer. To get rid of them, use finings (I use whirlfloc, which is a tablet form of irish moss). This will help with a nice flocculation of proteins, especially when you cool your wort. The proteins will group and fall. This flocculation will continue in your fermentor, after the turbulence of fementation is over. At that time, the ideal thing to do (from my experience) is to cold crash the fermentor (bring to 32F), add gelatin solution, and wait a few days. You can get some seriously clear beer this way. Finally, if you want to experiment, you can filter. This makes crystal clear beer. To filter, you really need to go through all the steps I already outlined above or you will clog the filter and have a bit of mess. Filtering is really not necessary for any beer, though it's the fastest way to clear beer.

I realize I'm in the beginner's forum, so if any of that is unfamiliar, or you have further questions, post them here. Don't hesitate. I was in your shoes once, with some very odd green globs floating in my first IPA.

aartese said:

What could cause proteins or precipitate?

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Proteins come from the malt. You'll hear people talk about hot break and cold break. It's more or less coagulated proteins plus some other things that form at the beginning of the boil (hot break) and after chilling (cold break). Was this an all-grain batch or extract?

I guess cold break could be considered precipitate too, but when I think of precipitate I usually think of minerals that come out of solution. For example, if you have fairly hard water and boil it, sometimes you'll see calcium carbonate form and fall out of solution (temporary hardness).

Passedpawn: I've read a little about beer clarity but your summary was fantastic - thanks!

Microbusbrewery - I think Chicago's water is very hard with lots of chlorine.

Just a thought...Could some reaction or combination of things be happening with the proteins, hard water, and not rinsing the washing soda from the easy clean? Would the minerals still be suspended in solution at this point?

aartese said:

IslandLizard - I wish Northern Brewer told me I should rinse! I will use star san for everything next time. My mix of star san got cloudy immediately..Which I think may be due to the Chicago water. I tested the pH and it was 3 which is good, right?

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If it's below 3 you should be good.

aartese said:

live in Chicago.

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You should join the chicago homebrew group, they meet up at the Maplewood brewery and distillery once a month. Good guys, tell them I said hi.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ChicagoHomeBrewersGroup/

aartese said:

I shined a light into another bottle and there is stuff floating at the top 1/2 to 1 inch of the bottle. Would that be pellicle?

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Yup, that's the pellicle.

microbusbrewery said:

Proteins come from the malt. You'll hear people talk about hot break and cold break. It's more or less coagulated proteins plus some other things that form at the beginning of the boil (hot break) and after chilling (cold break). Was this an all-grain batch or extract?

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Forgot to answer this. It was an extract kit with specialty grains.

I'm now 2 weeks after bottling and tried another one. The floating stuff seemed to disappear once I poured it OR, it is the stuff floating on top of the beer. The tart/sour flavor did not develop any more and actually may have subsided. Beer taste pretty good minus the unappealing stuff floating on it. It also seems really really cloudy..or is that just my incorrect evaluation?


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