Mr. Malty Says...

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enohcs

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Im doing a 10 gallons lager at 1.055 OG. I only have one White Labs vial of yeast. I have a stir plate, a 2L flask, and a 4L flask. Mr Malty says that for a single step starter I need at least 2 vials of yeast, and even then I would need a 6.75L starter. With 3 vials of yeast I could cut the starter size to 4L.

What do I do?

I'm thinking that I make a 2L starter, chill, decant liquid, then pitch the slurry into a fresh 4L starter. Sound good?
 
If you want to save some time, you can pitch the entire little starter into the big one as soon as it reaches high kraeusen.
 
Since you have a stir plate, I think a 2L and a 4L starter would be overkill. You only need about 390 billion cells (Mr. Malty says 384 billion) for 10 gallons of 1.055 gravity wort. I use the Wyeast calculator BTW., it's much easier to manipulate and figure out final cell counts when doing steps. White Labs advertises thier "pitchable" vials as containing between 75 - 150 billion cells. Lets just say it ends up being 100 billion. If you do a 1 liter starter and step it up 1 more liter you should end up with a little over 400 billion cells on a stir plate. That's plenty. Just make a 1 liter starter in your 4L flask and step it up one more liter, decant and pitch.
 
Im doing a 10 gallons lager at 1.055 OG. I only have one White Labs vial of yeast. I have a stir plate, a 2L flask, and a 4L flask. Mr Malty says that for a single step starter I need at least 2 vials of yeast, and even then I would need a 6.75L starter. With 3 vials of yeast I could cut the starter size to 4L.

What do I do?

I'm thinking that I make a 2L starter, chill, decant liquid, then pitch the slurry into a fresh 4L starter. Sound good?

My take is this. Using Mr Malty's advice you need 770bn cells. If you pitch one fresh vial into an initial 3L starter on a stir plate you should get about 375Bn cells. Pitch the 375Bn into a 4L starter (stir plate) should give you around 750Bn cells which is where you are aiming almost.
 
My bad, I didn't notice you were brewing a lager I was thinking ale. Yeah, your original plan should work fine. :drunk:
 
You might be looking at ale or 5 gal. For a 10 gal lager I need 767 billion cells.

After looking into it a little more, I found a bit more helpful info. If I pitch my 100billion vial into a 2L starter I will then have upwards of 400 billion cells since I'm using a stir plate (only 200 billion if I wasn't).
Then, according to mr malty, if I pitch the 400 billion cells into a 2.75L starter, I will end up with exactly the 767 billion cells I require.
Am I way off in my thinking here?
 
If I pitch my 100billion vial into a 2L starter I will then have upwards of 400 billion cells since I'm using a stir plate (only 200 billion if I wasn't).

My calculation is that you would likely only get 300bn.
 
el_caro said:
My calculation is that you would likely only get 300bn.

I read on the mr malty page that 100 billion cells into a 2L starter will yield about 200billion cells...and twice that if using a stir plate.
What info are you looking at?
 
I read on the mr malty page that 100 billion cells into a 2L starter will yield about 200billion cells...and twice that if using a stir plate.
What info are you looking at?

I confess that has always confused me. I know in his guide on Proper Yeast Pitching Rates he says around 2x using a stir plate as opposed to non-stirred. But if you use the calculator and change between stirred and intermittently shaken you get a factor of 1.5x or change between stirred and simple you get a factor of 2.66x.

Hence when using the chart from Yeast book I was thinking multiply yeast cells by 1.5 if using a stir plate. Not sure if the chart refers to unstirred(simple) or intermittently shaken?

Anyone can clear this one up I would appreciate it.
 
el_caro said:
I confess that has always confused me. I know in his guide on Proper Yeast Pitching Rates he says around 2x using a stir plate as opposed to non-stirred. But if you use the calculator and change between stirred and intermittently shaken you get a factor of 1.5x or change between stirred and simple you get a factor of 2.66x.

Hence when using the chart from Yeast book I was thinking multiply yeast cells by 1.5 if using a stir plate. Not sure if the chart refers to unstirred(simple) or intermittently shaken?

Anyone can clear this one up I would appreciate it.

The chart you are referring to is for a starter that is untreated in any way. No oxygenation or agitation. Just pitch and sit. (just found this out in tonight's research on starters).
 
This is why I use dry yeast for lagers. Just too much to do in order to get a proper pitching rate for a lager with a vial. I've been very happy with my results with Saflager 34/70 basing my pitching rates on Mr Malty.
 
The chart you are referring to is for a starter that is untreated in any way. No oxygenation or agitation. Just pitch and sit. (just found this out in tonight's research on starters).

The question I have then is do we use 2x as per his guide or 2.66x which is what the calculator show as the increase using a stir plate over a simple starter?

Either way your pitching rate sounds more than adequate.
 
I see what you're saying now. That is obnoxious.
Ive decided I'm doing a 2l starter then stepping it up into a fresh 4l starter. I guess I'll see how much slurry I end up with and see how that volume compares to the pitching rate I'm aiming for. Depending on what you read, the volume of slurry could range from 200 to 400 ml depending on how much crap is in the mix. I'd guess with a starter, the volume should be on the low end since it's mostly free of trub, and mostly viable cells.
 
Next stop, 760 billion cells


image-768820343.jpg

Made a 2L starter and pitched into 4L.
 
This is why I use dry yeast for lagers. Just too much to do in order to get a proper pitching rate for a lager with a vial. I've been very happy with my results with Saflager 34/70 basing my pitching rates on Mr Malty.

The only problem with that approach is every beer will have the same yeast profile and really limits you to experimenting with just different malts/hops. Same reason I completely skipped extract. I wanted to have Marris Otter, Munich and or Vienna available to make up my base without using Light, Golden or a combo to make a base.

To the OP. When I do a lager I fiddle with the numbers and sliders to figure out how much of a starter to grow 2 or 3 vials worth (200-300Billion) of yeast. I do that first step, crash and decant then head back to Mr. Malty to find out how much I now need for the beer with 2-3 fresh vials and make a new starter based off of that.
 
phoenixs4r said:
That looks like its gonna blow over.

It did but not much. As I was pouring the slurry in I realized I forgot to remove some wort to compensate for the additional volume.
 
I feel like I need to share what I just learned: If you have an Android device, get the Brewzor app. It has a built-in pitching rate calculator that lets you calculate step-up sizes. Great app!
 
silverzero said:
i feel like i need to share what i just learned: If you have an android device, get the brewzor app. It has a built-in pitching rate calculator that lets you calculate step-up sizes. Great app!

+1
 
+1 for Brewzor. It does everything your computer calculator can do. Easy to read and use and it is in your pocket when you need it.
 
enohcs said:
Looks like I need to get me an android. Unless there is something as good for the iPhone.

iBrewMaster is good. There is a mrmalty app for pitching rate. It's a rip at 5 bucks but I bought it anyway. I do all my recipes on iPhone.
 
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