All-Grain Brewery w/Automation--Concept Phase

Williams 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
K

kerklein2

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2008
Messages
393
Reaction score
20
Location
Austin
First, a little background on myself. I've been brewing since last January, so a little over a year and I think I've brewed 6 or 7 batches with another one upcoming this weekend. The beer I've been making has been getting better with each batch, so that's always good. My crowning achievement so far was the 3rd place medal we (a co-brewer and I) just collected this weekend at the Bluebonnet for our Belgian Tripel.

I've been planning to go all-grain at some point for a while now, but never really put too much thought into how or when, until now. At a recent happy hour with some coworkers I started talking about homebrewing with one of the managers in my group. I work as a mechanical engineer at a prominent test and measurement company. We started talking about how I could incorporate our products (hardware and software) into a homebrew setup and obviously I got pretty excited because I'd thought about doing this a lot. He suggested that I come up with a proposal for the project and he'd work to get me everything I needed (although I'm pretty sure he only meant our products). So here I am on HBT with a blank slate asking for ideas.

My current living situation is an apartment, and although I'll be looking for a new place in the next few months, chances are high that it will be another apartment with no outdoor brewing options. Given this constraint (a crappy one for this build, I know) I am limited to electric brewing and my stovetop. My initial thoughts are to do an electric HERMS system utilizing two 10 gallon coolers because I already have the coolers but I also realize adding ports and connectors to these coolers is not easy. So I want to open the floor to discussion on what I should build on a budget in an apartment but that I can still heavily utilize automation in. We have ranges of products for temperature measurement, any sensor measurement really, and digital control. What temperature measurements do I need, what other measurements? How many control lines do I need, etc. My kitchen is adjacent to my 220V line for for clothes dryer, so it might be possible to do 220V with an extension cord, but remember I might be moving.

I realize that might be a very vague and open ended post, but its supposed to be at this point. Let's get the ball rolling on this thing!
 
I guess the place to start would be to define some system parameters;
Mash tun volume
Mash container
HLT volume
HLT container
Boiling kettle volume
Boiling kettle material
Beer batch size
Maximum starting gravity

Heat source selection
Direct fire gas
Steam
Electric

Control strategy
Binary
Floating digital
Analog

Sensor types
Analog:
Thermocouple
RTD
Pressure
Digital:
Level switch
Pressure switch

Software functionality
Execute programmed events w/o HMI
HMI initiated automated sequence
Automated sequence with recipe derived settings

Finally the foot print
Single tier
Stacked 2-3 tier
Free form with interconnects
 
kladue said:
I guess the place to start would be to define some system parameters;
Mash tun volume
Mash container
HLT volume
HLT container
Boiling kettle volume
Boiling kettle material
Beer batch size
Maximum starting gravity

Heat source selection
Direct fire gas
Steam
Electric

Control strategy
Binary
Floating digital
Analog

Sensor types
Analog:
Thermocouple
RTD
Pressure
Digital:
Level switch
Pressure switch

Software functionality
Execute programmed events w/o HMI
HMI initiated automated sequence
Automated sequence with recipe derived settings

Finally the foot print
Single tier
Stacked 2-3 tier
Free form with interconnects
Click to expand...

Well I've already got 2 10 gallon water coolers so I am envisioning using these as the MLT and HLT similar to "The Pol's" setup seen here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/new-10-gallon-herms-pics-76773/

I currently have a 7.8gallon stainless kettle that can just barely handle 5 gallon full boils so I'll stick with that for now but could easily upgrade to a 10 gallon batch with these 10 gallon mash tuns.

Like I said, I'm in an apartment so I've got no gas. Steam is interesting, I'd need to read more about that. Electric seems like the easy choice here.

My control will all be my company's hardware and software.

I'll most likely be using thermocouples for temperature measurements. How many do I need? With a HERMS set up, is two enough? One in the HLT and one in the MLT? What would the pressure sensor or pressure switch be used for? Steam setup?

The form factor for now will have to just be single tier on my kitchen cabinets. I don't have the space to do anything outdoors, but there is the small possibility that could change.
 
The biggest concern for me would be building a system that you can easily expand to meet your needs. You are likely to spend somewhere between 200 - 500 hours researching and building this system. Also you will likely have 2000 - 3000 dollars worth of parts if you use fancy level sensors and pressure transducers.

I would hate to spend all that time and resources (even though some will be free) to build a system that can easily be outgrown.
 
What is going to be outgrown besides the vessel size and possibly a switch to gas? Neither of these would happen anytime soon I imagine. I don't want to pass up this opportunity at work. Everything I put together now could be reused with different vessels and a different heat source I think.

Also I still don't know what a pressure transducer would be used for except in a steam setup.
 
We use the pressure transducers with the BrewTroller to read the volume of each of the 3 vessels. That way the system knows how much liquid you have.
 
You can do HERMS with an electric boil kettle and a single wort pump if you are doing batch sparging. One temp probe and one controller.

But, if you are able to get gear from your company, I'd go crazy and build something with gratuitous gadgets all over it. :D
 
Walker said:
You can do HERMS with an electric boil kettle and a single wort pump if you are doing batch sparging. One temp probe and one controller.

But, if you are able to get gear from your company, I'd go crazy and build something with gratuitous gadgets all over it. :D
Click to expand...

What kind of gadgets do you recommend?
 
kerklein2 said:
What kind of gadgets do you recommend?
Click to expand...

Actuated ball valves. There's a reason we use full-port ball valves in brewing. They open up to essentially unrestricted flow, and shut even if there's grain in the fluid. The biggest downfall I see to most automation done on this board is attempts to use soleniod valves in places where you'd normally see ball valves. Grain husks and other stuff can get in the way and cause them to not seat, making them leak. They also restrict flow and often need back pressure to allow the valve to un-seat.

Motor or air operated valves are expensive, but I think are the best way to go. If I ever take a shot at automation I planned to try to use a servo or stepper motor to operate ball valves, but no plans on the horizon.
 
Poorly stated by me....

What I meant was: I am building an electric HERMS system and opted for lowest cost, so I am building an electric boil keggle that will serve as the heat exchanger for my circulating mash (MLT is 10 gallon cooler). The water in the exchanger will be my sparge water at the end of the mash, so I will be temporarily pumping that into a smaller pot (poor man's HLT) at the end of the mash, just to get it out of my way for a few minutes.

Then I'll pump my first mash runnings into the keggle and start heating it.

Then I'll have to transfer the sparge water from that poor man's HLT into the mash tun, let it sit a bit, and then pump it into the keggle with the rest of the wort and start boiling.

I plan to upgrade later and build a dedicated HLT/Exchanger and just have my keggle be a simple boil kettle.

But, if money were not a factor in my decision making, I'd go right ahead with a dedicated HLT/exchanger right now and have two electric items in the brewery.

I don't know what kind of stuff your company makes, but if you can have things like float switches and pumps and all that capable of being driven by software, it would be cool as HELL to walk up to a computer and tell it, "Give me 4 gallons of 170*F water, please" and have it open valves to measure your water, and automatically kick on the heat.

If the thing can run brewing "programs" you could go hog wild and set up a flow chart for the whole brew session.

- open valve and run 4 gallons of water into boil kettle.
- begin heating boil kettle to 170*F
- open valve and run 4 gallons of water into HLT.
- begin heating HLT to 152*F
- wait for temps to be reached.....
- pump boil kettle contents to MLT.
- sound alarm so that I know it's time to dough in.
- reciruclate mash through HLT coil and maintain 152*F temp for 60 minutes
- stop recirculation pump
- raise temp of HLT water to 170*F while letting mash rest
- pump mash to boil kettle and start heating to boil
- pump HLT into MLT
- let rest 15 minutes
- pump MLT into kettle
- when kettle reaches boil, start timer
- when timer reaches hop additon time, sound alarm
- repeat timer alarms for hop additions for this recipe
- when boil is done, kill heat
- begin pumping water through IC in kettle until kettle contents reach 72*F
- pump kettle into carboy
- sound alarm to let me know to pitch yeast
- END

You could save the recipes in a file that the machine could read so that it would be able to configure the water volumes and temps, and hop alarms automatically.

I want one!
 
I can definitely do all that stuff. I can basically control and measure anything I want pretty simply. Also can make fancy user interfaces and even port to a web page or iphone app (low on my priority list). I am still on a budget so valves are probably out for now cause they aint cheap.
 
A simple interface that just took a few parameters like this:

total grain weight
mash thickness (in qt/lb)
mash temp
hop schedule

And it could calculate all of the temps and volumes, measure it, and heat it as necessary.

But, I think the crown jewel would be the valves that could reconfigure your plumbing to do all of this pumping from here to there so you could just fill in those parameters and press [START] and sit back waiting for alarms.
 
kerklein2 said:
What is going to be outgrown besides the vessel size and possibly a switch to gas? Neither of these would happen anytime soon I imagine. I don't want to pass up this opportunity at work. Everything I put together now could be reused with different vessels and a different heat source I think.

Also I still don't know what a pressure transducer would be used for except in a steam setup.
Click to expand...

Sorry, didnt mean to come off as negative, or to say that you shouldn't build it. I just was trying to give food for thought for building the system with upgradability in mind. The example i always see is people on the board who say I bought a 20 quart pot because I only do partial boils... for just a few more dollars you could have a 32 quart pot that will let you do a full boil in the future.... anyways, that was just an example.

A pressure transducer is a sensor that detects the weight of a liquid that is above it. using a pressure transducer, and a height-to-volume relationship, you could "sense" the volume in your HLT, MLT, etc.

Anyways, good luck, and don't hesitate to ask questions... some of the smartest people i know are on this board.
 
Oh. if you can get your hands on a precise flow meter that won't get clogged with husks, etc, GRAB IT!!! I'm betting that a turbine meter or other such positive displacement meter would get clogged, but perhaps you could find a 1-inch mag meter, or something of the sort.

That is the one limitation that most of us have with our systems. We have to measure Volume manually using a site glass.
 
Walker said:
Poorly stated by me....

What I meant was: I am building an electric HERMS system and opted for lowest cost, so I am building an electric boil keggle that will serve as the heat exchanger for my circulating mash (MLT is 10 gallon cooler). The water in the exchanger will be my sparge water at the end of the mash, so I will be temporarily pumping that into a smaller pot (poor man's HLT) at the end of the mash, just to get it out of my way for a few minutes.

Then I'll pump my first mash runnings into the keggle and start heating it.

Then I'll have to transfer the sparge water from that poor man's HLT into the mash tun, let it sit a bit, and then pump it into the keggle with the rest of the wort and start boiling.

I plan to upgrade later and build a dedicated HLT/Exchanger and just have my keggle be a simple boil kettle.

But, if money were not a factor in my decision making, I'd go right ahead with a dedicated HLT/exchanger right now and have two electric items in the brewery.

I don't know what kind of stuff your company makes, but if you can have things like float switches and pumps and all that capable of being driven by software, it would be cool as HELL to walk up to a computer and tell it, "Give me 4 gallons of 170*F water, please" and have it open valves to measure your water, and automatically kick on the heat.

If the thing can run brewing "programs" you could go hog wild and set up a flow chart for the whole brew session.

- open valve and run 4 gallons of water into boil kettle.
- begin heating boil kettle to 170*F
- open valve and run 4 gallons of water into HLT.
- begin heating HLT to 152*F
- wait for temps to be reached.....
- pump boil kettle contents to MLT.
- sound alarm so that I know it's time to dough in.
- reciruclate mash through HLT coil and maintain 152*F temp for 60 minutes
- stop recirculation pump
- raise temp of HLT water to 170*F while letting mash rest
- pump mash to boil kettle and start heating to boil
- pump HLT into MLT
- let rest 15 minutes
- pump MLT into kettle
- when kettle reaches boil, start timer
- when timer reaches hop additon time, sound alarm
- repeat timer alarms for hop additions for this recipe
- when boil is done, kill heat
- begin pumping water through IC in kettle until kettle contents reach 72*F
- pump kettle into carboy
- sound alarm to let me know to pitch yeast
- END

You could save the recipes in a file that the machine could read so that it would be able to configure the water volumes and temps, and hop alarms automatically.

I want one!
Click to expand...

one word : Brewtroller
 
Ah...I understand what a pressure transducer is, I just wasn't thinking of using it as a volume measurement device. There are also resistive and capacitive level sensors which are basically just long stainless probes, but also can be expensive. Lots of different types of level sensors out there.

As for the flow meter, perhaps a venturi meter could be used? There are no flow obstructions in a venturi, and very little pressure drop. I'm not sure it can be used on non-homogeneous fluids though. I'd have to do a little research.
 
kerklein2 said:
Looks like a cheap way to get 3 relays. We have some relay products, but I don't know if we have any that can handle the current I'll need for the pump or heating element.
Click to expand...

Then connect the relay to an SSR or definite purpose contactor.
 
How much functionality do want in a system, basic temperature control, intermediate with level ,temperature, and pump control, advanced with flow control and direction valving, extreme, recipe calculation to push button brewing process.
 
Regarding brewtroller:

Yes, it does all the things I was talking about, but the fun is in building your own, isn't it?
 
Does your company name contain the letters "N" and "I"??

mmmmm.... Free controls.... We are jealous. If its the company that I'm thinking of, I would use one of their vision systems for volume measurement. It would be cool if your control system could 'Look' into the tuns to see how full they are. Maybe you could even setup an SRM measurement system.
 
For flow measurements, I would try to in stead work on an accurate way to measure the volume of the tanks, and then back the calculation out of that. You can get very accurate on volume without too much effort.
 
eccsynd said:
Does your company name contain the letters "N" and "I"??

mmmmm.... Free controls.... We are jealous. If its the company that I'm thinking of, I would use one of their vision systems for volume measurement. It would be cool if your control system could 'Look' into the tuns to see how full they are. Maybe you could even setup an SRM measurement system.
Click to expand...

Perhaps...:)

Vision system could be sweet, but I can't imagine it'd be easy to integrate a camera into the setup unless you used a sight tube.

As for the brewtroller...I don't need it. I'm going to be using all company hardware except for any necessary sensors and SSRs.
 
kladue said:
How much functionality do want in a system, basic temperature control, intermediate with level ,temperature, and pump control, advanced with flow control and direction valving, extreme, recipe calculation to push button brewing process.
Click to expand...

I want as much functionality as I can afford really. The hardware and software isn't the issue as I've said, but any sensors or brewing equipment will be on me most likely so I don't want to spend too much there. I've already got the 2 coolers and 32 quart pot as I said so I will start there as far as vessels go unless someone convinces me otherwise.
 
What kind of a timeline do you have with the hardware availability, time enough to shop Ebay and other places for reasonably priced hardware. Is the control hardware able to do analog outputs or are you limited to digital outputs only. A couple questions about the interface hardware, what is the bit resolution of the analog hardware 8,10,12,14 bits, and is the hardware able to handle industry standard 4-20Ma inputs.
 
kladue said:
What kind of a timeline do you have with the hardware availability, time enough to shop Ebay and other places for reasonably priced hardware. Is the control hardware able to do analog outputs or are you limited to digital outputs only. A couple questions about the interface hardware, what is the bit resolution of the analog hardware 8,10,12,14 bits, and is the hardware able to handle industry standard 4-20Ma inputs.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've got no timeline for this thing. I'd like to have a rough plan together soon though so I can present my concept proposal before he forgets about it. Ebay shopping and such could happen after.

Our company (OK, I'll confess since I'm going to be plastering logos on this thing and hyping us anyway), National Instruments, has a WIDE range of products available that can handle something like this, most of them are major overkill. We have analog I/O, digital I/O, and bit resolution up to 24 bits (maybe higher, we have so many products I don't know all of them). We most definitely can handle those input levels.
 
With apartment space constraints, plastic vessels for mash and hlt, a modified RIMS system with 120/240 element voltage switching would probably be the easiest hardware to build. A 30 amp electric dryer receptical that could be used to power the system would get you by. Pipe fittings, elements, pump and other hardware has been described and priced in other threads so build instructions are posted. You have the luxury of a control software package to build control scheme from, or are you going to "roll your own" from one of the various programming languages. If it is a "roll your own" approach I might have some insight into various control strategies and code from the R&D system I have running, 3 manual operations from recipe build to cleanup.
 
I would really sit down with the manager that started this whole thing off and really nail down a scope of what the company will supply. You might even try and push for the company to fit the bill for the entire thing as sort of a demo of the service/products your company can provide ("With our company you too can build your very own brewery!"). Upside they might let you store/brew at work - Downside they would own the rig (and it would be a bit hard to just slip it in the back of your car when you leave the place).
If a supplier had a brew rig at their factory/showroom I would be there all the time = I would be swayed to by their product so I would have an excuse to be there all the time. (joking! ...............yes joking :rolleyes:)
 
The company is likely to supply anything that we currently sell. Sure I could push for them to buy the entire rig, but what would the justification for that be? Our products are far too expensive for a homebrewer to use.

It is going to be a demo for our products, but I also want it to be mine and at my place. I'm sure I'll be posting lots of videos/pictures/presentations/write-ups in the future. I don't really want to push my luck with this. When I present the proposal, I'll outline what my costs are going to be, and if someone pipes up and says they'll pitch in (highly doubtful) I'm not going to say no.
 
Simpler build, easier to control, voltage switching makes it possible to heat strike water with same element at 240V. With a 4,000 watt element in RIMS chamber, 4,000 watt boiling element you can stay within power limit of typical dryer outlet. Herms systems work well but need second smaller volume tank to get response time down as water is heated to heat coil exterior. A possible Rims control scheme would be,
Water fill using Rims heater as instant water heater
Dough in and recirculate, step mash with rims heater
Sparge water heat with Rims heater as wort transfered to boil
Switch power to boil kettle element for boil
You could use unheated water tank for brew water measurement and pump for transfer, insulated cooler mashtun, Aluminum/SS boil pot with water heater element for boil. Water feed pump could be mag drive pond pump in water bucket, wort pump a mag drive Little Giant/March pump. Water level control, adjustable washing machine level switch/ adjustable float switch, capacitive switch on bucket exterior, etc.. The choices are many for parts and control schemes, that is where the fun begins.
 
If price was no object, and sensors were available, I love to be able to measure ph of my strike water & mash, measure specific gravity throughout mash & sparge... Before & after boil, flow rates, and a bunch of other stuff :)
 
kladue said:
Simpler build, easier to control, voltage switching makes it possible to heat strike water with same element at 240V. With a 4,000 watt element in RIMS chamber, 4,000 watt boiling element you can stay within power limit of typical dryer outlet. Herms systems work well but need second smaller volume tank to get response time down as water is heated to heat coil exterior. A possible Rims control scheme would be,
Water fill using Rims heater as instant water heater
Dough in and recirculate, step mash with rims heater
Sparge water heat with Rims heater as wort transfered to boil
Switch power to boil kettle element for boil
You could use unheated water tank for brew water measurement and pump for transfer, insulated cooler mashtun, Aluminum/SS boil pot with water heater element for boil. Water feed pump could be mag drive pond pump in water bucket, wort pump a mag drive Little Giant/March pump. Water level control, adjustable washing machine level switch/ adjustable float switch, capacitive switch on bucket exterior, etc.. The choices are many for parts and control schemes, that is where the fun begins.
Click to expand...

I don't quite get how I would use the RIMS heater to heat the sparge water? Turn off the wort flow through it, then re-route water through it to another tank?
 
diatonic said:
If price was no object, and sensors were available, I love to be able to measure ph of my strike water & mash, measure specific gravity throughout mash & sparge... Before & after boil, flow rates, and a bunch of other stuff :)
Click to expand...

pH is something I'm thinking about, but I haven't looked into sensors yet. Gravity would be sweet, but I don't think there's an easy way to do that...maybe.

I think I may be getting in a little over my head since I've never actually done AG before. I should probably start it simple and then expand once I understand everything, but design for expansion to begin with.
 
I was thinking off how to measure the volume in a tank and was wondering about using ultrasound, now you might be the person to ask. Any issues likely to occur is using US? Might not work to well for during the boil if there is excesive foam, but for keeping track of liquid level might be good during transfers, etc. Don't know how well they would hold up to the heat/moisture but I would imagine that your company would have some high temp/high moisture models.
 
kladue said:
During sparge cycle wort is pumped to boil kettle with mag drive wort pump while water feed pump sends water through rims chamber to top of mash.
Click to expand...

So you are saying that the RIMS heater can heat the water to sparge temperature in one pass?
 
For gravity if you know the volume/hieght of liquid in the tun, measure the pressure at the bottom and then P = rho.g.h or rho = P / (g.h)I was looking a pH sensors a few weeks ago and they seemed like a PITA in terms of maintenance. Can't let them dry out or something.
 

Similar threads

D
Extract Brewing high original specific gravity
Replies
5
Views
574
mac_1103
mac_1103
JeffersonCoastal
Going from three vessel propane to Electric All in one
Replies
23
Views
1K
thewho1985
T
P
First Keezer Build
Replies
5
Views
240
fluketamer
F
David Kilduff
Mini-Kegging for St.Patricks day!
Replies
4
Views
180
fluketamer
F
P
Kegerator leaking from inside the tower
Replies
11
Views
736
sibelman
sibelman

Latest posts

Back
Top