4L yeast starter

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

smittygouv30

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
Messages
332
Reaction score
21
Location
Fayetteville
Hello,

I'm preparing for my brew day this weekend and would like to make the yeast starter tonight. This is my first time making a lager and am shocked at how much more yeast they recommend to pitch. I purchased only 1 vial of white labs german X yeast. Brew smith tells me i'm going to need a 6L yeast starter to accumulate the number of yeast cells needed. I have two 2L flasks and a dual fan stir plate. I'm gonna have to improvise. I'm thinking I'll do two batches of 3 liters worth of wort. That'll give them each 48 hours.

My question is, Is it ok to split the vial and pour half into each 2 L flasks with 1.5 L of wort? I'll let them multiply decant and do the same thing again on Friday. I'm hoping this should get me close to the number recommended.

Any problems with this?

Corey
 
If I'm understanding you correctly you will make your first starter cool and decant and pitch into a second starter to get a total of 6 liters of starter. The problem with this is that the yeast won't multiply like it did in the first starter. It will actually produce way less yeast than the first one so you will still be underpitching. I've faced this same problem and decided to make a starter in a spare 5 gallon carboy, aerate the crap out of it and pitch my yeast. Because I don't have a stir plate that big I need to make an even bigger starter to get the correct yeast pitch. So instead of a 6 liter starter I might need to make a 10 liter starter without the stir plate.
 
Go.to yeastcalc.com and enter the info for the batch and then see what size starters you would need if you did a two step starter. I've done this with two <2L starters where i would have otherwise needed a starter of at least 6L for a single step. Just be sure to chill/cold crash and decant between starters. You might need an extra day for this.
 
If I'm understanding you correctly you will make your first starter cool and decant and pitch into a second starter to get a total of 6 liters of starter. The problem with this is that the yeast won't multiply like it did in the first starter. It will actually produce way less yeast than the first one so you will still be underpitching. I've faced this same problem and decided to make a starter in a spare 5 gallon carboy, aerate the crap out of it and pitch my yeast. Because I don't have a stir plate that big I need to make an even bigger starter to get the correct yeast pitch. So instead of a 6 liter starter I might need to make a 10 liter starter without the stir plate.

Interesting. Beersmith tells me I can turn 1 vial into the recommended cells with 1 6L starter. Are you saying that two 3L starters is not equivalent to one 6L (the first 3L batch completed, cooled, decanted, and then pitched to the second batch of 3L)? I'm not questioning you i'm just asking if i'm understanding correctly.

Corey
 
Go.to yeastcalc.com and enter the info for the batch and then see what size starters you would need if you did a two step starter. I've done this with two <2L starters where i would have otherwise needed a starter of at least 6L for a single step. Just be sure to chill/cold crash and decant between starters. You might need an extra day for this.

Oh sweet thanks for the link. I have never seen this before.
 
smittygouv30 said:
Interesting. Beersmith tells me I can turn 1 vial into the recommended cells with 1 6L starter. Are you saying that two 3L starters is not equivalent to one 6L (the first 3L batch completed, cooled, decanted, and then pitched to the second batch of 3L)? I'm not questioning you i'm just asking if i'm understanding correctly.

Corey

Yes, that is what I'm saying. I know it sounds weird that 3+3 does not equal 6. I read the yeast book by chris white and he goes into explaining why but seriously that is way over my head. I'm an engineer not a biochemist.
 
Yes, that is what I'm saying. I know it sounds weird that 3+3 does not equal 6. I read the yeast book by chris white and he goes into explaining why but seriously that is way over my head. I'm an engineer not a biochemist.

Actually, from reliable sources (yeastcalc.com for one and Yeast for another) you'll get MORE yeast from two smaller starters. Especially with a stirplate and by stepping the starter.
 
Golddiggie said:
Actually, from reliable sources (yeastcalc.com for one and Yeast for another) you'll get MORE yeast from two smaller starters. Especially with a stirplate and by stepping the starter.

I'm just saying what I read you could be right but the way I understood chris white that wasn't the case
 
Yes, that is what I'm saying. I know it sounds weird that 3+3 does not equal 6. I read the yeast book by chris white and he goes into explaining why but seriously that is way over my head. I'm an engineer not a biochemist.

Gotcha, thanks again for the reply. Looking at yeastcalc.com you both are right. for some reason a 6L starter will give me 300 billion cells, lower than what i'm looking for. But two 3L starters will give me around 600. The part that is tricky is that the doubling rate significantly lowers in the second step. (from 5.4 to 1.7)

According to the site it does look like two 3L starters should work out to about the right amount of cells I need to pitch.
 
4-liter growlers ($5 at your LHBS) are nice at times like this. Personally, I'd make a 3L starter in a growler and be done with it.
 
I'm sorry, I miss spoke. I was recalling the chapter in yeast starters when it pointed out that if a vial doubles in a 1 liter starter and you decide to pitch that quantity into another 1 liter starter that it will not double in size again. Sorry about that.
 
4-liter growlers ($5 at your LHBS) are nice at times like this. Personally, I'd make a 3L starter in a growler and be done with it.

Are you saying just do one 3L and not worry about under-pitching? The problem is that 3L will only give me 1/2 the recommended cells.

Corey
 
Are you saying just do one 3L and not worry about under-pitching? The problem is that 3L will only give me 1/2 the recommended cells.

Corey
Yep. You'll see advantages to pitching a lot of yeast, but those advantages plateau, in my experience, somewhere once you get around 50% of the recommended cells for a lager. (or maybe less but who's counting) The Yeast Nazis call me a heretic, and claim that the beer will be crap for some unknown mystical reasons. In short, I just haven't seen that this 2x multiplier for lagers gets you much.

But don't take my word, see for yourself.
 
You might be past your window to step up a lager starter too. The last one I did (about 2 weeks ago), it took me about a week to step it up. It takes at least 24 hours to crash cool and be able to decant clear (non-yeasty) beer out of your flask, they don't floc as quickly as ale yeast. I usually do at least a day on the stirplate, 24-48 hours in the fridge. Decant and add fresh wort, then another day on the stirplate, and 24-48 hours again in the fridge. I usually end up making a starter the weekend before.
 
You might be past your window to step up a lager starter too. The last one I did (about 2 weeks ago), it took me about a week to step it up. It takes at least 24 hours to crash cool and be able to decant clear (non-yeasty) beer out of your flask, they don't floc as quickly as ale yeast. I usually do at least a day on the stirplate, 24-48 hours in the fridge. Decant and add fresh wort, then another day on the stirplate, and 24-48 hours again in the fridge. I usually end up making a starter the weekend before.

Oh boy that's not what I wanted to hear. I don't plan on brewing until the afternoon on Sunday. But, it does sound like I will be cutting it very close.

This might be a dumb question but do people set their stir plates right in the fermentation chamber to keep the starter at fermentation temperature. Or do you just set it up in the house somewhere, and cold crash after 24-48 hours?
 
Oh boy that's not what I wanted to hear. I don't plan on brewing until the afternoon on Sunday. But, it does sound like I will be cutting it very close.

This might be a dumb question but do people set their stir plates right in the fermentation chamber to keep the starter at fermentation temperature. Or do you just set it up in the house somewhere, and cold crash after 24-48 hours?

I put mine on the kitchen counter while on the stirplate. Then it goes to the fridge. Normally 18-24 hours on the stirplate, then up to 24 hours in the fridge to cold crash before decanting and adding the second batch of starter wort.

Didn't see that the OP was making a lager (that happens when you're posting from your smartphone, while trying to look like you're working :D). Still, I would think that you'll be able to hit your yeast colony size with two smaller starters. Now it's just a matter of getting it cold crashed between, decant, and then cold crash before you make the slurry for the batch. The yeastcalc site has a pull-down menu item for "Type of Fermentation" where you can set it to 'lager' so you get the correct pitch cell count.

I've been using this method for the past few batches, instead of trying with one 2L or 3L starter. Really liking the results I get from the stepped starter. Plus, I'm getting much closer to the cell count using less DME. :rockin:
 
Thanks all for the helpful advice. I got the starter made and yeast pitched tonight. I'll let her spin for 24 hrs, cold crash tomorrow, repeat the starter on Friday, cold crash on Saturday, and hope it's ready for Sunday's afternoon brew session.

2 steps of 3L starters each is supposed to bump me to just over 6 billion cells as per yeastcalc.com. That's right where I need to be!

Thanks again for the speedy replies!

Corey

image-2553736452.jpg
 
Haha yes, 600 billion is what i meant. I guess i had too many home brews while making the starter! Whoops.

Thanks for the correction.

Corey
 
Back
Top