Lets talk Wyeast French Saison 3711

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dsuarez

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So Wyeast recently made this one a year round yeast. After much experience with Belgian Saison 3724, I decided to give this one a couple of whirls.

Anybody have any good insights on this yeast? I just fermented my first beer with it. It is less tart/citrusy compared to 3724 and rather bubblegummy/banana like. I was shooting for a saison, but this tastes more like a slightly tart belgian pale ale.

Anybody have any good tips on its use or a little bit of recipe insight? After tasting my first beer fermented with 3711, it kind of makes me think this would be the ultimate Belgian IPA yeast. Anybody try one with 3711? Any other styles it well equipped to ferment? Belgian Stout?

Overall, a tasty yeast with desirable fermentation characteristics (high attenuation, ferments FAST in comparison to other belgian yeasts, I found it to be a decent flocculator as well.) This being said, I don't necessarily think I would use this instead of Wyeast 3724 for brewing saison. Anybody agree or disagree?
 
What was your OG? Use a starter? Fermentation temp?

Personally I prefer this to the Belgian Saison strain simply because it requires much less attention and can handle cooler temps. My house and garage is a pretty constant 65* this time of year which is too cold for the Belgian strain.
I've brewed with the Frenchy at about 67* and the Belgian at about 73* and gotten pretty much the same flavor profile.
 
I am letting this yeast drop right now from a (saison-ish) ale. I dont know flavor just yet, but that yeast TORE through the wort! No babysitting like the Belgian Strain, no ridiculous temps, just a great fermenter. I'll post back when I sample (whenever I get my kitchen put back together after remodeling)
 
I started with a pale wort with a gravity of 1053. I fermented at around 65 for almost a week, and then moved it into the boiler room to finish for a few weeks in secondary. The boiler room can sometimes approach 90 degress. The Terminal gravity of the beer is 1006. Nice and dry, and no starter either. No off flavors or problems to speak of really. Just a soft tart/citrus flavor and aromas with some banana and bubblegum in conjunction.

I have brewed a couple of other beers with this yeast that are in the works now. i'll let you guys know how they turn out.
 
Yeah, man, I had great results with this one too. I let it ferment at 73-77. It tastes great, and really worked quick. Very dry, refreshing, silky finish.

I brewed mine at the end of summer, so the weather was cooling at it hit its peak. I've been aging the rest all winter and I'm curious to quaff the results this spring.
 
Did anyone experience a very slight sulfur smell during fermentation? I've got some going right now.
 
3711 is a bit of a monster. Is fast, and super attenuative. I think my last saison went from 1.055 to about 1.000


If I do another on with this yeast, I'm probably going to mash a bit on the high side.
 
Bottled my saison the other day, and the test samples where very encouraging. Down to...well, i dont know because I just broke my hydrometer :( but it had been in primary for about 4.5 weeks, so it was good to go. Great flavor from the yeast. spicey, with a little fruitiness on the back-end. Not like the Belgian strain, but very nice. Washed the yeast and will be making a bigger saison soon. I think this could also become my house Belgian strain (I know, it's french, but you wouldn't know it from the taste)
 
This brought a saison I just brewed (10 lb pils, 1 lb sugar, mashed at 149 for 90 minutes) from 1.056 to .98 in 8 days. Next time I'm mashing at 152 without sugar.
It fermented for three days at 65 and then was allowed to ramp up naturally. It plateaued at 74 degrees, the sample tasted great though.
 
I'm a fan of this yeast. I used it for the first time last summer with excellent results and was very happy when they made it a year round selection. I've got a Saison in mind to brew up in June or July with 3711. I prefer it on the higher end of fermentation, around 70. And I'm thinking next time I might either mash high, or transfer it when it reaches a suitable FG rather than let it keep going. It is quite the beast!
 
Took mine from 1.052 to 1.001 in about 2 weeks, 90 min 149 F mash, gradually ramping the ferm temp from 65 to 77 F. What a beast! Bottling soon, will have to report back on the taste.
 
I also got the banana/bubble gum flavors, although it's still nice. It tastes like a very good blonde, with just a hint of spiciness. I started it at 65 and ramped to 70 during fermentation/conditioning.
I am brewing it again soon, and will make a bigger starter, pitch cold, and keep to the yeast lower temp levels.

hopefully the banana will stay low and the dankness will show through...

Any other suggestions?
 
I also got the banana/bubble gum flavors, although it's still nice. It tastes like a very good blonde, with just a hint of spiciness. I started it at 65 and ramped to 70 during fermentation/conditioning.
I am brewing it again soon, and will make a bigger starter, pitch cold, and keep to the yeast lower temp levels.

hopefully the banana will stay low and the dankness will show through...

Any other suggestions?

If you find my posts on this yeast and saisons in general, I've been pimping this technique for a while....

3711 is such a madman that you don't need a big pitch of it to dry out your beer. Make a big starter of 3724 and pitch half a smack pack of 3711. I did this and my saison is at 1.004 after two weeks, ready to bottle as soon as I crash it. The Dupont yeast gave up the ghost after 18 hrs., but the 3711 slowly finished it off. It doesn't have the exact same character as Dupont yeast only, but it is real close. Look up the Odonata Brewing interview during the Sunday Session on the Brewing Network. That's where I got the idea. The don't even add simple sugars anymore to their saisons and they finish in the single digits. Their ratio of Dupont/3711 is 95/5.
 
Hi Smizak, do you pitch them both at the same time? at what temps?

Pitched at the same time. Dumped half a smack pack of 3711 in the funnel and washed it down with the 1.5L starter of 3724.

I pitched at 72F and held it at that temp in my temp control chamber. It went up to 79F on it's own, I held it at 80F when the initial krausen dropped.

It was weird because that krausen dropped the next day, almost overnight, but the 3711 fizzed along for 10 more days almost like wine yeast does, no krausen.
 
80 degrees for 3711 and no off-flavors? I would expect crazy banana/bubble gum
 
80 degrees for 3711 and no off-flavors? I would expect crazy banana/bubble gum

Nope. Very citrusy, but no banana or bubblegum. I pitched at 72F and let it free rise. The cell count was highly in favor of the 3724, so it probably gobbled up most of the ester precursors, as most ester production happens in the growth phase. The 3711 also probably didn't see much growth since the other yeast ate 66% of the sugars within 18hrs. Two hours and it was ripping. It was a 1.060 beer and was at 1.025 when the initial krausen dropped, which I'm assuming was mostly the Dupont yeast.
 
was the final taste anything like dupont? I would kill for being able to reproduce the funky spiciness...
Could you post your recipe? I think I might just go ahead and brew it soon, even though I still have many of my other (first) saison.
 
was the final taste anything like dupont? I would kill for being able to reproduce the funky spiciness...
Could you post your recipe? I think I might just go ahead and brew it soon, even though I still have many of my other (first) saison.

It definitely has that slightly spicy phenolic character that Dupont has. The key is the big pitch of 3724. I made a sour mash with 1 lb of the pilsener malt a couple of days before hand and added it to the main mash. I just heated the mini-mash on the stove to 154F, sanitized a lid and covered it. When it got to 120F, I tossed in a scant handful of unmilled malt, covered it back up and put it in my temp control chamber set at 100F. The next day, I had a nice clean lacto fermentation going on. No garbage or used baby diaper off aromas at all, just a nice, yogurty sour aroma. I let it go until it was nicely sour, then heated it up till just boiling to kill off the lacto, covered it again and kept it in my beer fridge till brew day. On brew day, I heated it up to 150F and mixed it in with the main mash for the last half hour. Didn't want the acidity to affect my conversion. Not being bottled yet, I can't testify as to how this has affected the flavor too much, I just know I'm very happy with it out of the fermenter.



BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Saison
Brewer: Damon P
Asst Brewer:
Style: Saison
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.75 gal
Boil Size: 7.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.060 SG
Estimated Color: 5.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 30.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 84.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
0.50 lb Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 4.44 %
7.50 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 66.67 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 8.89 %
1.00 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 8.89 %
0.25 lb Caramunich I (Weyermann) (51.0 SRM) Grain 2.22%
1.00 lb Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 8.89 %

1.10 oz Goldings, B.C. [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 19.3 IBU
0.66 oz Mt. Hood [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 11.1 IBU
1.00 oz Mt. Hood [4.80 %] (0 min) Hops -


1 Pkgs Belgian Saison (Wyeast Labs #3724) [Starter Yeast-Ale]

1 Pkgs French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 10.25 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 3.20 gal of water at 160.2 F 147.0 F


Notes:
------
Brewday 6/6/10

1.060 SG -> 84% Efficiency

6/9/2010: 1.025
6/11/2010: 1.011
6/16/2010: 1.004
6/18/2010: 1.004

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Anyone use this yeast above 80F? Its my all time favorite yeast in nearly 2 years of brewing. I made 6 batches with it and 3 will be done this summer. I want to try to brew one batch without controlling the temperature at all and with July around the corner I can expect room temperature to go above 80F sometimes.
 
I just want to make sure I am not an idiot and reading this wrong. Is the run-down that the 3711 will get you under 1.010 in under 2wks, while the 3724 can take 4-8wks, but it has a different ester profile?

Also, people said to mix the yeast? Say half a smack pak of 3711 and a small starter of 3724?
 
I think the dual yeast idea is to first use the 3724 to get the flavor profile, then after a week or two pitch the 3711 to let it finish to the low FG.

I'm always a little leery about doing that, although I'm sure it works just fine. FWIW, I pitched the 3711 with the 3724. You could tell that it was the 3724 that dominated the ferment at first because the krausen dropped 18 hrs in @ 1.025. Then the 3711 chipped away at the last 20 or so gravity points.
 
so what, in your opinion, would be the best way to get the earthy, rustic flavor of 3725, along with the attenuation of 3711?
3711 was a little too banana/bubble gum, so I want it to be less dominant.
 
Like I posted earlier, do a big starter of 3724. Then just open the smack pack of 3711 and dump half of the pack or less. The 3724, especially when pitched a little warm, mine was at 72F, will take off in a couple hours. My saison definitely has the rustic, peppery phenols of a good saison, and it was @ 1.004 after 10 days.

You could also do what passedpawn suggests, but I would pitch an active starter of 3711 after the 3724 quits.

If you listen to the Brewing Network, Odonata Brewing Company uses the same technique, that's when I decided to use it. They were interviewed on the Sunday Session. They go even less than I did with the 3711, they pitch 95% 3724(Dupont) and 5% 3711. They don't even use sugar and their saisons finish in the single digits.
 
Thanks Smizak, I'm going to try what you suggest. My 3711 tastes more like Southhampton saison than Dupont, so I'll combine the yeasts to get more of the 3725 rustic flavor.
I plan on doing a few different saison experiments, I'll post my results once finished.
 
Thanks Smizak, I'm going to try what you suggest. My 3711 tastes more like Southhampton saison than Dupont, so I'll combine the yeasts to get more of the 3725 rustic flavor.
I plan on doing a few different saison experiments, I'll post my results once finished.

Please do! I'm very satisfied with mine, I hope it works out for you.
 
Smizak,
Just listened to the Sunday Session you mentioned, it's quite interesting. I'm now pondering using just a couple percent of acidulated malt. What are your thoughts on adding acidity to the recipe? I know that you made a sour mash, is it crucial to the crispness we all hope for in Saison?
 
I don't taste any banana/bubblebum in my saison I brew with 3711. It's got a nice earthyness to it and a good bit of citrusy tartness.
 
Ok, well, I've got a small saison lined up for the weekend with just pilsner and wheat, EKG, STG, and Saaz, fermenting with 3711.
I'll ferment on the low temp side, and I'll see if that doesn't get the banana. Maybe my last 3711 got higher than I thought...
 
Smizak,
Just listened to the Sunday Session you mentioned, it's quite interesting. I'm now pondering using just a couple percent of acidulated malt. What are your thoughts on adding acidity to the recipe? I know that you made a sour mash, is it crucial to the crispness we all hope for in Saison?

I don't know if Dupont sours their mash, but it definitely has a distinct sour and slightly funky aroma to me. Plenty of Saison recipes don't use acidulated malt or a sour mash and rely on the yeast alone. I prefer my Saisons to have just a touch of sour, funky character, makes them more refreshing and interesting.

You should try the sour mash. If it smells like Bigfoot's d!ck, just chuck it and throw in some acidualated malt. You're only risking a pound of grain. Like I said, it definitely adds complexity to my beer, I really enjoy it.
 
Mine probably spent most of the time in the low-mid 80's if that helps.

In the past I made a few batches keeping it in low to mid 70's. Right now I have a batch that is 75-80F.

Did you notice any significant flavor change with the temperature increase or have you always done them above 80F?
 
Always been in the 80's and I love the way it tastes. Not sure if I'd want to do 5 gallons of it differently since I might not like it as much that way.
 
well boys, it's 100 degrees right now, I've not been able to recycle my ice bottles, so I'm expecting my saison to be around 85 degrees. I'm still within the first 48 hours of pitching, so we'll find out what flavors I get out of the yeast at high temps. I'm hoping the fusels will be restrained...

Anyone have a chest freezer for me in NYC?
 
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