Medieval mead ideas, help a geek out

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ShadowWulf

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Heya! Im getting ready to do my first 2 or so mead brews and i have some odd-ball questions.

First off, im a bit of a medieval history buff. I collect weapons (i mean really really collect....100+ pieces), read old english fluently and can commonly be seen as one of those guys at a ren-fair wearing armor dueling.

Now, what im looking for in my next brew is something deicidely medieval in nature. However, im beside myself right now trying to find WHAT that entails as i dont believe ive ever tasted something that i could in all honesty say "Yep! Thats medieval tasting all right!"

I did find this though, may intrest some of you:
The Reynolds Historical Library has parts of the Tractatus de Magnetate et Operationibus eius (the thirteenth-century letter on the magnet by Petrus Peregrinus) available on-line. Included is one of the oldest known surviving English mead recipes (folio 20r).The manuscript is written on vellum in brown ink with red chapter headings. Much of the text is in Latin, however the recipes are mostly in English. Below is the mead recipe.
//ffor to make mede. Tak .i. galoun of fyne hony and to þat .4. galouns of water and hete þat water til it be as lengh þanne dissolue þe hony in þe water. thanne set hem ouer þe fier & let hem boyle and ever scomme it as longe as any filthe rysith þer on. and þanne tak it doun of þe fier and let it kole in oþer vesselle til it be as kold as melk whan it komith from þe koow. than tak drestis of þe fynest ale or elles berme and kast in to þe water & þe hony. and stere al wel to gedre but ferst loke er þu put þy berme in. that þe water with þe hony be put in a fayr stonde & þanne put in þy berme or elles þi drestis for þat is best & stere wel to gedre/ and ley straw or elles clothis a bowte þe vessel & a boue gif þe wedir be kolde and so let it stande .3. dayes & .3. nygthis gif þe wedir be kold And gif it be hoot wedir .i. day and .1. nyght is a nogh at þe fulle But ever after .i. hour or .2. at þe moste a say þer of and gif þu wilt have it swete tak it þe sonere from þe drestis & gif þu wilt have it scharpe let it stand þe lenger þer with. Thanne draw it from þe drestis as cler as þu may in to an oþer vessel clene & let it stonde .1. nyght or .2. & þanne draw it in to an oþer clene vessel & serve it forth
// And gif þu wilt make mede eglyn. tak sauge .ysope. rosmaryne. Egre- moyne./ saxefrage. betayne./ centorye. lunarie/ hert- is tonge./ Tyme./ marubium album. herbe jon./ of eche of an handful gif þu make .12. galouns and gif þu mak lesse tak þe less of herbis. and to .4. galouns of þi mater .i. galoun of drestis.

Well, besides THAT can anybody recomend some good medieval recipes or styles? Even specific methods and pointers would help. I have a hard time also believing that the average peasant fermented their mead for 6-12 months either. It would seem from that recipe that it was more a matter of DAYS, but that could obviously be incorrect.
 
Actually, and I am one of those dressed walking around Ren goers every weekend, a matter of a few days would be about right for the peasant brews. Even the pubs did not sit aside a brew for extended periods of time. Containers were of course made of wood and stoppers, if they used one were wood also.

Where I am going with this is that the medieval period tastes would have been woody flavored. From what I have seen with the Ren period brewing is very large wooden barrels stacked on shelves. The top was the final clearing stage and as they took down from the top the lower shelved barrels were racked and brought to the next shelf above. I still wonder how they did it without massive oxyidation. It was surely consumed quickly. The best as always went to the royal family then other nobles and continued down the line.

The peasant class used what they could get and would use drestis obtained from a brewer and do what they could to keep it alive or use it immediately. So I would try about 2 lbs of honey in a gallon jug, warm water and pitch a Ale yeast with a handful of wood chips. Leave covered with a towel for 7 days then slap an airlock on for 3 or 4 weeks. It should be about finished and be around the 5% abv mark. You may need to play with this a bit to get the woody flavor but that should be very close. You could start with more honey to finish sweeter but I don't believe the peasants used a large amount due to the cost.
 
mgayer said:
Where I am going with this is that the medieval period tastes would have been woody flavored.
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I am glad you guys are here. really. I don't mean to come off as a Richard. Please consider the following - for discussion purposes only-. If you choose to be personally insulted I see your 2 handed cleaving sword and raise you Smith and Wesson, OK?


I don't see this as worth arguing over. However - and I recognize up front you are going to do what you want- what I learned during my BA in Anthropology with a strong concentration in Archeology is mankind has been fermenting stuff in ceramic vessels for a really long time.

Did somebody in the Middle Ages in Europe ferment stuff in wood? Sure. Do you want to make a woody mead, go ahead. I don't believe for a moment that fermenting in wood only is the one true Tao of medieval mead though.

Which English Pale Ale is, to this day, fermented in troughs made out of slate, the same rock used for blackboards? Are some meads going to work better with some wood to them? Sure. I have only made six gallons of mead, lifetime. I just racked all six from glass primary to glass secondary last weekend. To me these are some pretty delicate flavors.

It seemed to me the whole point of medieval technology was to solve the immediate problem with whatever materials are at hand, sort of one big long 800 year episode of MacGuyver. And that was my whole problem with/ why I didn't join the SCA.

Congrats on learning old English, I am sure that was a major pain in the neck. I would be really interested to hear some mead and beer recipes from you, but as a gourmand (not to be confused with a gourmet) I am going to use the technology I choose to produce the best tasting result I can envision from whatever recipe you translate.

Sorry to go off on you. The one that really roasts me is 'purists' putting oak chips in their IPAs, as if Elizabethan and Victorian English don't include the word "barrel pitch".


And what is drestus? Is that an early spelling/ form of detritus? Sorry, my OED is boxed.

Not to pick on mgayer, but if I racked to a "large wooden barrel" why would I lift it to a higher shelf instead of leaving it on the floor?

Not to pick on ShadowWulf, but the first gallon of mead I ever made got sampled two hours after I pitched the yeast and was gone on day 21. It was tasty too ;-)

Just keeping it real fellas.
 
ShadowWulf said:
I have a hard time also believing that the average peasant fermented their mead for 6-12 months either.
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Why not? They had no idea what yeast was or how fermentation took place, let alone how to control fermentation, pitch suitable strains, feed the yeast, maintain proper temps, areate,etc... At leat they suggest "pitching" yeast with the 'destris of finest ale or else "berme" '. Remember, honey is devoid of nutrients for yeast, and without modern, "proper" techniques, even today ferments can be slow and take more than a month.

Today you can ferment a mead in 6 to 12 days. I doubt you could do that 30 years ago, let alone 500.
 
Poindexter said:
... the first gallon of mead I ever made got sampled two hours after I pitched the yeast and was gone on day 21. It was tasty too ;-)

Just keeping it real fellas.
Click to expand...

Drinking yeast laden honey water is, in my opinion, not, in any way, keeping it "real".
 
olllllo said:
IB4YeOldeL
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Oh come on.

I got to figure out how many lower case L's in the grille of a jeep... Ok. I haVe the "number."

The cool Rens will actually consider the remarks of mundanes like me before they draw the 2 handed cleaving sword. Plus I make really good leather armour, but that is a different board.

A 55 gal barrel of mead at 0.990 is going to weigh (lessee 8 pounds to the gal x0.990 x 55 click whir) 435 pounds, plus the weight of the wet wood, and the king wants me to raise it up to a "high" shelf today and lift it back down when he gets here tommorrow? Kiss my hairy redneck butt Mr. King. 435#, that is believable in some other reality where the laws of physics don't apply, maybe.

How many gallons is a "very large" wooden barrel? 20 gal? That is still (click, whir) 158# of mead plus the wood. I am leaving it on the floor. If my mead is good enough for the king to drink he can freakin get over it.
 
ALPS said:
Why not? They had no idea what yeast was or how fermentation took place, let alone how to control fermentation, pitch suitable strains, feed the yeast, maintain proper temps, aerate
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You sir, are at high risk for being a thoughtful Ren. Would you be needin a Cuirass today?
 
Poindexter said:
You sir, are at high risk for being a thoughtful Ren. Would you be needin a Cuirass today?
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Dude, you wanna build me some armor, I'll send you measurements from my tailor.
 
ALPS said:
Dude, you wanna build me some armor, I'll send you measurements from my tailor.
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If it is off the rack it will cut into your hand work and if the fit is really bad it will cut into your foot work.

Now just lift this wee barrel of the King's mead up to that high shelf and I'll make you a cuirass for free overnight.
 
Wow, got some replies finally. Cool.

The wood idea sounds interesting, one for the taste and another is because wooden barrels WERE very popular fermenters in norhtern europe die to the ease of construction and ready availability of materials. Clay and whatnot is much more common the farthur south one travels though for the same reason. Someone brewing in itally is more likely to use clay than someone in britan for instance.

But no, im definatly not a Ren elitist. Quite the opposite in fact. Im just a geek with a love for the medieval period. Not EVERYTHING ever should be Period Correct either....

Comeon, think for a moment im gonna substitute my airlock for piles of hay =)

It also seems to be due to the high consumption rate of the period several gallons of mead would literally vanish overnight in most places. Considering a grown man could proably drink 3-4 gallons solo if he was so inclined its entirely possible. Our overconsumption of today was not the way others cultures have always viewed the subject.

Perhaps a 30-50 day ferment time was more common, roatating them off the barrels as was neccessary for serving. Im SURE there was better mead, left so ferment much longer to develop a better taste. This would of course be for higher class clients or nobility...however the average peasant would expect no such thing and was probably quite content with dregs or under-fermented mead.

As for the whole on or off the shelf storage thing...i have no comment but the issue of weight really does make it seem silly to store hundreds of lbs of mead obove ones head......stacked barrels maybe 2 high seems much more likely really.


DAMNIT, i didnt come to fight :p

One fast question...i need some ideas for flavorful western european herbs and spices (limited i know...) that may of been common between the 5th and 13th century. Im having a hard time nailing down anything that i think might actually have a good flavor, and not a swillish-blend. Im excluding anything that was by NECCESSITY an arabic import unless it was also cultured extensively in Western Europe of course. Im looking to make 5 2-gallon batches this week total, and im just lining all my ducks in a row :mug:
 
Ok, I was having some issue uploading piturz to the intrawebz wearlier this eve, see over here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=45986&page=2

but I shall try again here.

DOHH!! The suxxor!! one-one-elven-eleven

The brew is drinkable, aspersions of yeasty honey water to the contrary, on day 8. If you wish to ship this to mundania Florida two months hither you are screwed like His Majesty's pooch. Drinkable does not mean presentable. And my S&W is chambered .44mag. Bish.
 
ShadowWulf said:
One fast question...i need some ideas for flavorful western european herbs and spices (limited i know...) that may of been common between the 5th and 13th century. Im having a hard time nailing down anything that i think might actually have a good flavor, and not a swillish-blend. Im excluding anything that was by NECCESSITY an arabic import unless it was also cultured extensively in Western Europe of course. Im looking to make 5 2-gallon batches this week total, and im just lining all my ducks in a row :mug:
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Look around for gruit recipes for more ideas, but:

Heather
Spruce
Yarrow
Juniper
Mugwort
Sage
Bog Myrtle
Hops
Rosemary
 
flowerysong said:
Look around for gruit recipes for more ideas, but:

Heather
Spruce
Yarrow
Juniper
Mugwort
Sage
Bog Myrtle
Hops
Rosemary
Click to expand...


Awesome ideas...but correct me if im worng i had considered the idea of Bog Myrtle and Mugwort but....something about the name has me wondering how they would actually TASTE. You know? Bog anything just conjures up images of a witches brew in a.....well a bog :mug: Any clues about how that tends to finish?
 
ShadowWulf said:
Awesome ideas...but correct me if im worng i had considered the idea of Bog Myrtle and Mugwort but....something about the name has me wondering how they would actually TASTE. You know? Bog anything just conjures up images of a witches brew in a.....well a bog :mug: Any clues about how that tends to finish?
Click to expand...

I don't know first hand what either of these taste like, but if it's any consolation, both were used as insect repellant. :D
 
ShadowWulf said:
Awesome ideas...but correct me if im worng i had considered the idea of Bog Myrtle and Mugwort but....something about the name has me wondering how they would actually TASTE. You know? Bog anything just conjures up images of a witches brew in a.....well a bog :mug: Any clues about how that tends to finish?
Click to expand...

Bog Myrtle is related to wormwood and contains similar compounds. The flavour is bitter and somewhat medicinal, so erring on the side of too little would probably be better than too much.

Mugwort is more pleasant and less likely to overpower, with a sweet resinous flavour and aroma.

One other herb I neglected to mention is mint.
 
ShadowWulf said:
Well, besides THAT can anybody recomend some good medieval recipes or styles? Even specific methods and pointers would help. I have a hard time also believing that the average peasant fermented their mead for 6-12 months either. It would seem from that recipe that it was more a matter of DAYS, but that could obviously be incorrect.
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The Redstone Meadery produces nectars which are low in alcohol (7% I think). I thought that they said they produced it in 90 days?? I remember it being on a beer timescale. So it must be possible.

As for recipes? I think any would work. You just have to consider what was available at the time. So lavender, elderberries, are ok. Oranges, vanilla, or other spices not so much.

Good luck!
 
this thread is funny. I mean really funny. I have some stunning images to laugh at throughout the rest of my day. Thanks a lot. Much appreciated.
 
My first batch was a quickmede from a traditional period recipe. It called for 1 part honey to 9 parts water, oranges and tea, and while it was ok shortly after brewing and fermenting (which was a short span, natch) it's a pretty weak and flavorless product.
Period quickmead is little more than flavored water and doesn't store well.
Make a decent batch of mead, and you'll quickly learn to appreciate the better taste of well brewed mead that's been aging for a year or so, believe me.
 
A word about the herbs and such...German drinks like Jagermeister, Underberg, etc., are mostly herbs and used for "medicinal" purposes (digestives). To me these drinks are what I call "muddy".

I would think Medieval meads would be simpler and have the flavor of a single herb or a mix of 1 or 2 herbs to allow some of the honey flavor to come through.
 
Despite the original age of this thread it really is quite fascinating. Not an historian but I would strongly suspect that the need to boil the honey was largely due to their methods of processing and indeed their ability to extract honey without wax and other detritus from the combs. Honey, today, is perhaps more "pure" and the need to heat the honey in mead making is nil - unless , of course, you are making a bochet (a mead that is made with caramelized honey) but bochet requires a higher temperature than you can get by boiling with water.
@homebrewer_99, the OP quotes a recipe with numerous herbs - and I quote: tak sauge .ysope. rosmaryne. Egre- moyne./ saxefrage. betayne./ centorye. lunarie/ hert- is tonge./ Tyme./ marubium album. herbe jon./ of eche of an handful gif þu make .12. galouns
Some I don't know, but I see sage, hysop, rosemary, sassafras, thyme (is egre- moyne bergemot?) and I see the author of this recipe suggesting that one handful of each be added when making 12 gallons and less when making less. So, to your point that meads in the middle ages might have used only one or two herbs, I think this recipe, if no other, suggests that herbal mixtures were not unknown.
 
From what I have read in the extant medieval recipes, if herbs and spices were used, often many would be used. The idea to brew honey for the taste of the mead with a herb here or there to support the flavor I think is a purely modern perception. Back then honey was just sugar (it took until the 17th c for sugar to become mainstream) and like in the US colonial times with maple syrup, the less syrup taste the better (why even now grade A is the most bland). But herbs were important, they embodied great medicinal powers (real or perceived) and especially in the case of spices, they would show wealth. The spicier the mead or hypocras, the wealthier the family...

The beer recipes I've read seem to follow a similar plan, herbs are added to make medicinal beers, spices are added to mask spoilage (hence braggot). Even in the dark ages and prehistory herbs in brewing were valued for their psychotropic effects, for their antiseptic value and for their medicinal function - flavor is rarely, if at all, mentioned... I wonder if this is a more modern conception.

oh, and honey would be washed out of the comb, not boiled - that would be done after extraction, if at all. otherwise the wax would particularize into the must and not re-solidify (tastes great tho).

bernardsmith said:
Despite the original age of this thread it really is quite fascinating. Not an historian but I would strongly suspect that the need to boil the honey was largely due to their methods of processing and indeed their ability to extract honey without wax and other detritus from the combs. Honey, today, is perhaps more "pure" and the need to heat the honey in mead making is nil - unless , of course, you are making a bochet (a mead that is made with caramelized honey) but bochet requires a higher temperature than you can get by boiling with water.
@homebrewer_99, the OP quotes a recipe with numerous herbs - and I quote: tak sauge .ysope. rosmaryne. Egre- moyne./ saxefrage. betayne./ centorye. lunarie/ hert- is tonge./ Tyme./ marubium album. herbe jon./ of eche of an handful gif þu make .12. galouns
Some I don't know, but I see sage, hysop, rosemary, sassafras, thyme (is egre- moyne bergemot?) and I see the author of this recipe suggesting that one handful of each be added when making 12 gallons and less when making less. So, to your point that meads in the middle ages might have used only one or two herbs, I think this recipe, if no other, suggests that herbal mixtures were not unknown.
Click to expand...
 
ShadowWulf said:
Awesome ideas...but correct me if im worng i had considered the idea of Bog Myrtle and Mugwort but....something about the name has me wondering how they would actually TASTE. You know? Bog anything just conjures up images of a witches brew in a.....well a bog :mug: Any clues about how that tends to finish?
Click to expand...
I brewed with almost all of those and bog myrtle had nothing in common with wormwood. Completely different. Maybe you are confusing it with mugwort because this one is related to wormwood, but still tastes a lot different.

Two recommendations for op:

The book "how to brew mead like a Viking"

And of course "the gruit beer thread" in this very forum. You will heavily enjoy the thread itself and especially the papers that are linked to within the last few posts of this thread.

Edit: aaaaand there we go. Got zombified.
 
I was amused by the thought bog myrtle gave the assumption of a swampy taste, as another name for it is sweet gale ;)

Mugwort is indeed an Artemisia, like wormwood, and especially when harvested at the wrong time (after it bolts) will be rather bitter. We recently brewed some beer with wild harvested bog myrtle and I personally preferred it over hopped beer - but I am not in favor of hoppy beers in general so that did not surprise me.

Jereme Zimmerman also has a book on beer coming out next month - it's looking very promising, and deals with a lot of herbs. He's a homesteader and wildcrafts as well. cheers!
 
Susan Verberg said:
I was amused by the thought bog myrtle gave the assumption of a swampy taste, as another name for it is sweet gale ;)

Mugwort is indeed an Artemisia, like wormwood, and especially when harvested at the wrong time (after it bolts) will be rather bitter. We recently brewed some beer with wild harvested bog myrtle and I personally preferred it over hopped beer - but I am not in favor of hoppy beers in general so that did not surprise me.

Jereme Zimmerman also has a book on beer coming out next month - it's looking very promising, and deals with a lot of herbs. He's a homesteader and wildcrafts as well. cheers!
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I am still on my quest on finding a beer without hops that I could say the same about.

I will bottle a bog myrtle, mugwort, ground Ivy beer tonight, brewed with a saison yeast.

The idea was to use a yeast that eats almost all of the sugars so that there is no sugar left for lactos. This beer is promising but I might have used a bit too much of the herbs but let's see how it tastes.

I will take a look into this book, sounds promising!
 
Miraculix said:
I am still on my quest on finding a beer without hops that I could say the same about.

I will bottle a bog myrtle, mugwort, ground Ivy beer tonight, brewed with a saison yeast.

The idea was to use a yeast that eats almost all of the sugars so that there is no sugar left for lactos. This beer is promising but I might have used a bit too much of the herbs but let's see how it tastes.
Click to expand...

The bog myrtle beer we made was with roasted barley (for a smokey flavor) and bog myrtle, no other herbs. We're trying to replicate historic gruit ale and mugwort and ground ivy are not part of that herb package. Not sure I would personally add those two either, as mugwort can be quite bittering and likely would overpower the bog myrtle flavors? Let me know how that works out.

About souring, gruit ales were made sweet and strong - the high level of alcohol would help preserve it. It would also have a short shelf life - up until the discovery of boiling the hops, ales were only sold and traded locally as they would spoil too quickly. So if you want to use the bog myrtle the way it was back then, it would be high alcoholic, on a wheat beer base (no or low amounts of barley), and sweet...

Proost!
 
A short shelf life - perhaps, but I wonder whether people centuries ago did not expect their ales to taste "sour" in ways that today we don't. Sanitation was not their forte and LAB (lactic acid bacteria) must have soured just about every brew. LAB converting sugars into acids in the wort and later, in the beer, don't necessarily make the beer undrinkable anymore than LAB makes milk undrinkable when the bacteria transform the milk into yogurt or cheese, or vegetables into pickles..
 
Susan Verberg said:
The bog myrtle beer we made was with roasted barley (for a smokey flavor) and bog myrtle, no other herbs. We're trying to replicate historic gruit ale and mugwort and ground ivy are not part of that herb package. Not sure I would personally add those two either, as mugwort can be quite bittering and likely would overpower the bog myrtle flavors? Let me know how that works out.

About souring, gruit ales were made sweet and strong - the high level of alcohol would help preserve it. It would also have a short shelf life - up until the discovery of boiling the hops, ales were only sold and traded locally as they would spoil too quickly. So if you want to use the bog myrtle the way it was back then, it would be high alcoholic, on a wheat beer base (no or low amounts of barley), and sweet...

Proost!
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I bought some smoked malt for the very same reason, to get some Smokey flavour into the gruit.

But this time, I focused on getting something drinkable and stable without hops and without high alcohol percentage, ignoring everything historic.

That's why I went for the saison yeast, it basically leaves nothing behind for the souring bacteria to chew on.

From previous tests I knew that bog myrtle and ground Ivy can prevent beer from souring. Not as good as hops do, but still a little bit, that's why I have chosen those two.

In a book about herbal beers I read that ground Ivy and mugwort multiply their effect on the human body when being used together, that's why I added it.

Let's see :)

I brewed with all of them before and they are kind of my personal top three taste wise, I just never combined them with a saison yeast.
 
bernardsmith said:
A short shelf life - perhaps, but I wonder whether people centuries ago did not expect their ales to taste "sour" in ways that today we don't. Sanitation was not their forte and LAB (lactic acid bacteria) must have soured just about every brew. LAB converting sugars into acids in the wort and later, in the beer, don't necessarily make the beer undrinkable anymore than LAB makes milk undrinkable when the bacteria transform the milk into yogurt or cheese, or vegetables into pickles..
Click to expand...

It is totally possible beers were more sour back then than we are used to! we won't know for sure until we put our hand on a deLorean :)

But I do find it interesting to read that gruit beer was described as sweet. And I know of another 17th c recipe of an early 16th c beer style (called Mol) that sweet and carbonated was a thing. This (purposely) soured beer would be primed with concentrated malt (malt extract) just before barreling to get a sweet & sour carbonated beverage. By the time carbonation ran out and the sugars were gone, the beer was deemed sour and not good to drink...
 

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