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revkev6

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hey all this is my first post here. I've been wanting to start homebrewing for a couple years and finally decided I would take the plunge with a cider. I am thinking of starting with a few different one gallon batches to try different recipes. I don't have a keg and Co2 equipment...

I would like a good recipe for sweet sparkling cider, a dryer mix and possibly something in the apple wine realm.

most of what I have read about making sparkling cider uses Co2.... some have pasteurized once the Co2 levels they wanted were reached. does anyone have a reciped for sparkling cider that you let ferment out then add back sugar and non fermentable sugars for sweetness if required??

I like the idea of sparkling but don't want to have bottle bombs....

I am making my buy list at midwestsupply and so far have the following
nottingham yeast
ec-118 yeast
hydrometer
test jar
mini siphon
yeast nutrient
camden tablets
airlocks
rubber stoppers #6

I was planning on using 1 gallon wine jugs for fermenting this time around.

I was going to try either grolsch style swing tops or get a bottle topper??

anyone have thoughts?? I have read some of Ed Worts applewein thread, cvillekevin's crazy thread which I've barely scratched the surface of.... and a couple other misc. threads...
 
Ed Worts apfelwein is awesome. I did some still, some carb'd. If you want it sweet, just add honey or sugar when serving, or artificial sugar when bottling.

I plan to do the next batch, splitting it up to do some with fruit, maybe some herbs, who knows! Easy and delicious, for sure.
 
Buy a few different yeasts if you're getting everything shipped. You may want to experiment in the future.
 
+1 Buy a few different yeasts if you're getting everything shipped

You might want to try a wheat yeast like 3056 or 3068, and a wine yeast like D47 or 71B. That will give you a pretty good spectrum of what works with your juice. I'd also recommend WLP041 because it ferments slow, so easier to stop at a desired sweetness.

I'd skip the yeast nutrient and campden, especially since you are doing gallon batches. Generally speaking, less is more with cider. A gallon batch is very unlikely to get a stuck fermentation and since you are only making a gallon, you will probably drink it long before it has a chance to spoil.

One of the advantages to doing gallon batches is that for the ale and wheat yeasts, you can stop fermentation by sticking them in the fridge, as long as you keep them in the fridge. Try to keep them in the 60-65 temp range when fermenting. Depending on which yeast works best with your juice and your taste, you could either do another round of 4-5 gallons to check out other yeasts that are similar, or take the winner and scale it up

If you want to do some sweet sparkling styles and dont want to pasteurize or keg, then get plastic bottles instead of glass. Also, depending on your jugs, you might want to use 6.5 or 7 stoppers instead of 6.
 
cyclman, with ed worts apfelwein is it easy to back sweeten during bottling to carb??

Cville, thanks for the info. I haven't bought my cider yet as it's just a week or two early. It's about a 50-50 chance I will be getting unpasteurized cider right from my orchard. It was my understanding that camden is used with unpasteurized cider by most peopleprior to pitching??

I'm a bit leery of using too many different types of yeast at this point. I was thinking of trying a couple different recipes with similar yeast and cider so the variables are reduced until I find a type of cider I like, at that point I was planning on moving to different yeast types to see how they effect a specific recipe. I was going to use the ec-118 for the apfelwein and the nottingham for ciders.

what kind of plastic bottles would I get?? like old soda bottles??

I was planning to recycle glass gallon wine jugs or if needed use the plastic milk style jugs that the cider comes in. I would prefer glass though.
 
It was my understanding that camden is used with unpasteurized cider by most people prior to pitching??

True, but that doesnt mean its necessary. The main advantage with campden is that the cider will age more reliably, but if you're making gallon batches, aging shouldnt be too much of an issue. In the short term, it will impart a bitter taste that takes a few months to fade and ale yeasts do not like it much - so if you are making some test batches to see what you like, campden will interfere with this. Once you have dialed in a recipe that you like and you want it to last for 12 months, campden will be more useful. You could also do two gallons for each yeast - one with and without if you want to taste the effect. If you use good sanitation at the press, you shouldnt need it.

what kind of plastic bottles would I get?? like old soda bottles??

Yes, those work. brew stores also sell plastic brew bottles. gatorade bottles work OK, whatever you have on hand should be OK. The nice thing about making cider is that you can start low budget and relatively low effort while you are experimenting with recipes
 
ok so the camden is a no for quick small batches!

interesting on the bottles, I didn't know those would work. what about half gallon juice bottles like ocean spray??

I understand the process of carbing a dry cider... let it ferment out until the SG (is it SG or OG what's the difference? I've seen both used) levels out for a few days then use X amount of whatever sugar you want to carb it before bottling.

is there a method for sweet cider that does not ferment out all the way then you bottle and let carb up a bit then cold crash?? basically leaving some of the natural sugars in the cider. I'm assuming a method like this would have to stay cold??
 
what about half gallon juice bottles like ocean spray??

Sure, as long as you have some friends to help you knock back a half gallon when you open it, because the carb will only hold up so long - like getting a growler of beer filled.

is there a method for sweet cider that does not ferment out all the way then you bottle and let carb up a bit then cold crash?? basically leaving some of the natural sugars in the cider. I'm assuming a method like this would have to stay cold??

Yep, you can do this with a ale or wheat yeast. You can also bottle pasteurize (but not with plastic). That takes more time, so I'd wait until you get a recipe you like first.
 
I'm pretty excited about this whole setup... family lore says John Chapman is my 8th great uncle.... haven't done any genealogy though!

I think I'm going to put in an order for the items I listed above unless you think there should be something else added?? I want one yeast for a wine and one for an ale, should I choose different yeast to start with??
 
I want one yeast for a wine and one for an ale, should I choose different yeast to start with??

I'd use D47 or 71B for the wine yeast over the EC1118. They will give you more residual apple taste, especially if you are not using apples that were grown specifically for hard cider. If you find you like it really dry and want to go even drier, then try the EC1118, but that's a minority taste.
 
ok sounds great, looks like I'm going to grab a pack of 71b since it lists 59-86 degrees. just in case we have some strange indian summer going during brew time (although this will be setup in my cellar)

you think I will have a problem with #6 stoppers?? midwest is out of them. will 6.5's fit in wine jugs or the plastic milk jugs that the cider comes in?? everything I read said #6 for gallon glass jugs
 
you think I will have a problem with #6 stoppers??

Depends on your jugs. 6.5 works better for plastic jugs that cider comes in and most glass jugs that I've used. A 6 is a little small, which means that to get it tight you need to push it down nearly flush with the top of the jug, which can make it a real PIA to dig back out.
 
I am new to home brewing. I just started my first batch of Cider last night. I am experimenting with two different ciders from the local orchard. 1 gallon pasteurized and 1 gallon non pasteurized. For the non pasteurized I heated it over the stove for about 45 minutes. Each batch I added about 1 cup brown sugar. I ended up adding about a 1/4cup sugar to the pasteurized to raise the SG to 1.060. I am trying the Danstar Nottingham Ale yeast in 1 batch, and the Red Star dry wine yeast in another. Fermentation took off right away in one last night, but by this morning they were both really going. Well see how it goes.
 
Phil, glad to see another inexperienced brewer in here! can't wait to here how it comes out
 
I have a question about the end of fermentation. It has been referenced many times that it ends around the time you get less than 1 bubble a minute. Is that from the air lock or in the carboy/jug?
 
phil, I haven't even started my first batch of anything, but the little bit of reading i've done mentioned ~3 days of SG readings remaining constant. Do you have a hydrometer??
 
Yes I do. I forgot about checking that way as well. Thanks for the suggestion. 2 days into the cider its going good, although I did have to move the jugs into the garage because I was getting the "rhino farts" smell really bad, and my wife was having allergy issues, shes allergic to sulpha. We were not sure if it was related, so better safe than sorry. I hope the warmer temp in there does not change anything. I opened the window and am running a fan to keep the temps down in there.
 
Its been a week now and It is still going good. Bubbles are slowing to 4-5 per minute. I had to move the process to the garage early on. The temp in there has been close to a constant 80 degrees, but so far seems to have had no ill side effects. Well see how it goes.

Here are before pictures (bottom picture) The unpasteurized was the natural color. And 5 days in (top picture), the color seems about the same now.

start.jpg


5 days.jpg
 
Looking good so far. I'm on my first batch of homebrew with cider also and my carboy is looking very similar to yours. I used edworts recipe. It should be interesting to get it bottled as aged a little
 
hey guys anyone have an idea how many cups of briwn sugar it would take to bring a gallon of cider from 1.06 1.08? Im trying the 5 day recipe and dont have a scale.
 
revkev6 said:
ok so the camden is a no for quick small batches!

interesting on the bottles, I didn't know those would work. what about half gallon juice bottles like ocean spray??

I understand the process of carbing a dry cider... let it ferment out until the SG (is it SG or OG what's the difference? I've seen both used) levels out for a few days then use X amount of whatever sugar you want to carb it before bottling.

is there a method for sweet cider that does not ferment out all the way then you bottle and let carb up a bit then cold crash?? basically leaving some of the natural sugars in the cider. I'm assuming a method like this would have to stay cold??

Don't carb in anything that wasn't used for carbonated liquid before - juice bottles, etc.
 
hey guys anyone have an idea how many cups of briwn sugar it would take to bring a gallon of cider from 1.06 1.08? Im trying the 5 day recipe and dont have a scale.

I think off the top of my head I found I used about 1/4 cup to raise mine .05 But I used white sugar at that point.
 
I added about a cup brown sugar before the primary fermentation (1 gallon batch), and a little white sugar to raise the original gravity of 1 jug. I will be moving cider to a 2nd jug for secondary fermentation.

My question is, when I bottle what is the best method for carbonating. Using priming sugar, or will honey work (figure it may give some extra flavor). Do I have to pasteurize in either case? If honey, how much for 1 gallon, it looks like 3 tablespoons, but those are in my beer recipes.
 
ok ok think I'm finally catching a couple things!
SG= specific gravity
OG= original gravity before fermentation
FG= fermented gravity after fermentation


I posted my question last night before I had even started taking any OG measurements. I found the cider I bought to be quite tart to taste and it measured out at 1.045 which I thought was quite low.

I bought 4 gallons of cider and made 2 one gallon batches. first batch I'm going to try the "5 day sweet country cider" recipe from the recipes page. the second batch is going to be closer to Edworts recipe.... we shall see!


5 day sweet country cider:
I warmed 2 quarts of cider and added about 2 cups of brown sugar and 1 tsp yeast nutrient. this brought the OG up to about 1.072. I pitched nottingham yeast dry with the mix of warm/cool cider bringing the finished temp to about room temp. according to this recipe I will stop fermentation early, when it reaches about 1.04. should give me around 4% abv with a sweeter more natural cider taste. I will bottle let carb up then cold crash. Keeping refrigerated until I drink it. if this works out well, in the future I may try bottling with glass and pasteurizing.

apple wine:
warmed 2 quarts cider and mixed in two full cups of white table sugar and 1 tsp of nutrient. OG on this was up to 1.08... should be a hot mix! I pitched EC-1118 dry into room temp cider and it started pushing out a bubble every 15 seconds within 45 minutes! got up this morning and my stopper had pushed out! very annoying. this recipe i'm not sure what I want to do with yet... potential abv is just over 10% if I let it finish. I think I will let it ferment out fully, back sweeten with non fermentable then use table sugar to prime and bottle.

20130917_211440[1].jpg
 
I took gravity readings yesterday for both my batches. They have both fermented to 1.00. I siphoned both to a secondary fermenter. Do I need to add anything to that? How long should I keep it in there. I know the flavor will improve, but it was very dry champagne tasting. Not bad, but not what I was expecting.

I know my original readings and my post fermentation readings. How do I know what the alcohol % is. I started with 1.080 in 1 gallon, and 1.060 in another gallon. Both finished at 1.000 after primary fermentation.
 
I took gravity readings yesterday for both my batches. They have both fermented to 1.00. I siphoned both to a secondary fermenter. Do I need to add anything to that? How long should I keep it in there. I know the flavor will improve, but it was very dry champagne tasting. Not bad, but not what I was expecting.

I know my original readings and my post fermentation readings. How do I know what the alcohol % is. I started with 1.080 in 1 gallon, and 1.060 in another gallon. Both finished at 1.000 after primary fermentation.

If it tastes like dry champagne, then you did it right!

Look up backsweetening and bottle pasteurizing to see what you can do from here. You could also use an artificial sweetener to make it sweet, then add enough sugar to prime, and you'll have sweeter, bubbly, and high alcohol. But it might taste artificial - I always think it tastes chemically.

The flavor will "improve" with time, but it will always be dry like that, unless you add sugar.

As for alcohol by volume (ABV), you subtract the final gravity reading (FG) from the original (OG) and multiply by 131 (don't know why, that's just the factor). So, 1.080-1.000 = .08 X 131 = 10.48% ABV.

Our plan is to A) try for less dry fermentation, and then B) sweeten it with fresh cider and apple juice concentrate (frozen/thawed). We'll then kill the yeast and keg it to carbonate. So far, all of our efforts have been similar to what you have, EXCEPT the ones that ferment spontaneously in the fridge. Those are the best.
 
Thanks for the feedback. Would you sweeten with concentracted AJ during the 2nd fermentation or just before bottling? There is room in the carboy after transferring out. I would like to get that space back. I assume there leftover yeast that will reactivate? How long would you wait to bottle after sweetening?
 
Phil.. dont put the ajc in during secondary the yeast will convert it to more abv. Just before bottling then you have to pasteurize it after it reaches a good carb level through testing. I plan to sweeten with non fermentable sugar then priming before bottling with my wine.

How long did it take to hit 1.000
 
Ok, thanks for the info! See why small batches can be tough if you sweeten. It takes a few bottles just to check carbonation levels.

It took 9 days to reach 1.00. I wanted to check it on day 8 but ran out of time. At the 9 day mark 1 jug was still bubbling steady at 3-5 bubbles a minute but I decided to check it and it was at 1.00.

If you sweeten, do you still add priming sugar? I was thinking of honey to see if it adds any flavor.

Edit-just saw you use non fermentable sugar plus priming. Can it over carb with the tablet drops?
 
my plan is to use the 5 day country cider recipe which stops the fermentation early for natural sweetness. I will rack it when it hits about 1.03 then bottle it right away. bottles will be plastic soda bottles. when they feel hard (carbonated) I am going to cold crash them in the fridge. they will stay there until I drink them. that is the great thing about only doing gallon batches, they fit in the fridge. expect about 5% abv on this one.

I have heard cold crashing is extremely hard with wine/champagne yeasts though. I have nottingham going for the sweet cider and ec-1118 for a harder fully fermented cider that I will let go all the way. this should be a full 10.5% when done. I will probably back sweeten non fermentables to the wife's taste then prime and bottle.

I don't have a capper so no glass bottles yet for me. means I cannot pasteurize to kill the yeast after bottling.
 
That sounds like a good plan. Seems like I had this'll worked out in my head but once I started it was like, what page had that info again. I hope it turns out well.
 
I think why I keep confusing myself with the over carbonating concern and pasteurizing the cider, is I don't see that having to be done with Beer, which I am starting as well.
 
well, I checked my 5 day country cider SG this morning and it had hit 1.025.. I was aiming for 1.03. so it took from tuesday night to sat. morning to get from 1.072 down to 1.025..

here's the problem.. it tastes like butt. I pulled a sample and it is super tart like biting a crab apple. the cider that I started with was pretty tart to begin with... it also smells super yeasty.. kind of funky. I tried to sweeten it with stevia and it tastes sweet and tart.. but still not good lol. I decided not to sweeten the batch it and bottled. it has been carbing up for 2.5 hours now and I think I will cold crash it within another hour or so... the soda bottles are getting pretty firm already.

so here's the question. will the flavor change during bottling in the fridge?? if this is the way the batch will taste I'm probably going to end up just pulling it back out of the fridge and let it ferment out more to see what changes.
 
revkev6 said:
well, I checked my 5 day country cider SG this morning and it had hit 1.025.. I was aiming for 1.03. so it took from tuesday night to sat. morning to get from 1.072 down to 1.025..

here's the problem.. it tastes like butt. I pulled a sample and it is super tart like biting a crab apple. the cider that I started with was pretty tart to begin with... it also smells super yeasty.. kind of funky. I tried to sweeten it with stevia and it tastes sweet and tart.. but still not good lol. I decided not to sweeten the batch it and bottled. it has been carbing up for 2.5 hours now and I think I will cold crash it within another hour or so... the soda bottles are getting pretty firm already.

so here's the question. will the flavor change during bottling in the fridge?? if this is the way the batch will taste I'm probably going to end up just pulling it back out of the fridge and let it ferment out more to see what changes.

we had a batch that was dark brown and really bad last year, left it for a year, and it's super clear yellow, and it tastes just "not good." But it was horrible going into the bottles, so thats An improvement! That took a year.
 
well, I checked my second batch which I had intended to be edwort's apple wine recipe. it was at 1.021 and tasted delicious! almost no yeast smell, could still taste the apple and it was a little tart! best part was it was all the way up to 10.78% abv. I bottled it up! plan to make another batch of that for sure, maybe even try bumping the SG up a bit more and hitting 12%. I used EC-1118 and white table sugar in this batch as opposed to the nottingham and brown sugar in the batch that tasted horrible.

extremely happy with this and plan to make a bigger batch for my halloween party this year!
 
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