My first IPA

SSBrew - 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
mmb said:
So, jonmohno, in short we've learned that there are MANY stubborn brewers that are constantly presenting their opinions as facts and shouting down anyone who disagrees with their incidental observations in relation to their personal brewing experience.
Click to expand...

Sorry your feelings are hurt and that you took it that way. Did you read my disclaimer?

mmb said:
We've also learned that you can use John Palmer's name in retaliation for "name dropping" without realizing that said "name dropping" is just mentioning conversations held with friends and acquaintances on topics of mutual interest.
Click to expand...

I think you need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills. It's one thing to name drop for the purposes of heightening your own self worth and to prove a point that your brewing methods are superior because the pro's enjoyed them. It's another thing to use a pro brewer as a reference for homebrewers just as clueless on the topic:

bobbrews said:
People (and yes even veterans) don't understand it. John Palmer tells us this, "Only low alpha finishing hops should be used for FWH, and the amount should be no less than 30% of the total amount of hops used in the boil."
Click to expand...
 
bobbrews said:
Just because you brewed the best beer out of a handful of people and received a shiny plaque for it doesn't mean that other people cannot do it much better than you. So name dropping and posting pictures to prove a point is really pathetic.

...if you're trying to convince others to do it by saying that you won awards for your FWH'd IPAs, well then that's just non-sensical.
Click to expand...

Well now you're just hurting my feelings. Ya big meany.
 
I've been reading through this argument as it has progressed and I think if certain individuals would listen to what's being said by respected, long time members of this site it would benefit the advice that is given in this forum.
First of all, speaking in absolutes when giving advice is just wrong. Unless someone is trying to make beer using cream of wheat and corn syrup while fermenting in a boot, a lot of things can be open to experimentation. We have to remember that people are wanting to make a beer of their own and if their plan is not completely out of line then let them go for it. When someone asks for advice on a recipe, it's okay to give opinions and the reason behind it and why you prefer it, but it's all about the individual and what they want out of the beer. Bobbrews likes a good, upfront bitterness in his IPAs. Yooper likes the smooth bitterness that comes with FWH. Neither of those preferences are wrong, just different.
To say that a FWH beer cannot be an IPA is just ridiculous. Someone told me the same thing about doing my bittering charge at 30 min instead of the traditional 90/60 min, that an OG in the 1.090s is too high for a DIPA. I knew that was their opinion, I know what the style guidelines are and I'm an experienced enough brewer to go for my original plan. And guess what. It worked out and it's definitely bitter enough and nothing like the barleywine they said it was going to be closer to.
I've seen a lot of "advice" given in an arrogant, condescending way and there's no call for that. It seems those people come and go and they always play victim and attack those that are truly trying to be helpful when they're called out on their attitude or BS.
 
Ok, so wait. I want smooth bitterness in my IPAs, so tell me how do you do this FWH thing?? I'm already keeping the sulfate amounts down into balanced territory, (I didn't like the bitterness I got from jumping them up), and using late hap additions to provide more flavor. After all, an AIPA isn't THAT much more bitter than a regular IPA. (BJCP recommends 40-60 for English IPA and 40-70 for American IPA). So far that's been working great for me, especially the late hops additions.

What I've noticed, though, is that my IPAs are usually a bit harsh right at the beginning, and after 2-3 weeks in the keg they mellow out to where I prefer them, with plenty of flavor. I also prefer a more balanced profile. The BJCP says, " Hop flavor is medium to high, and should reflect an American hop character with citrusy, floral, resinous, piney or fruity aspects. Medium-high to very high hop bitterness, although the malt backbone will support the strong hop character and provide the best balance."

I know others who prefer a drier malt presence and a stronger bitterness in their IPAs, but I just like mine to be well balanced, with plenty of American hop variety flavor. So will this FWH technique maybe help me achieve a smoother hop flavor without having to wait 2-3 weeks for my beer to mellow? I just brewed a batch, so it might be a couple of months before I get to try this.
 
bobbrews said:
Sorry Bier :mug: Just telling it like it is without any emotion in the equation.
Click to expand...

No worries. All totaled, my FWH Tits Up beat out a combined 64 other entrants to take home two golds, a silver and a grand champion high gravity brew-off in three separate competitions.

I know pointing this out is a pathetic display in your eyes, but unless you were that one person out of 65 who beat me out of that gold I missed (with a score of 41), I have to dismiss your claim for lack of anecdotal or empirical evidence and again…go with what’s proven successful for me.

(now....if you were that one person that beat me out....I'd love to have your recipe.) :D
 
bobbrews said:
What the 2 or 3 mentioned in this thread? Because these are all homebrewers you are referencing. A mixed lot who is brewing anywhere from subpar, to average, to somewhat good, to good IPAs. If you put 10 ugly women in a beauty contest, and the prettiest one of the lot wins, does that still make her a beauty queen by comparison to the rest of the worlds prettiest women?
Click to expand...

Wow, that is the most arrogant statement I've read in a while. Sorry, when an IPA (made with FWH) wins the gold medal at the AHA National Homebrew Competition, I'll take that over your self-proclaimed expertise.

Also, you should take heed of your new signature/disclaimer. Your statement that great IPAs cannot be made with FWH is incorrect and misleading to other brewers. Try not to take that personally, ok? ;)
 
bobbrews said:
Sorry your feelings are hurt and that you took it that way. Did you read my disclaimer?

I think you need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills. It's one thing to name drop for the purposes of heightening your own self worth and to prove a point that your brewing methods are superior because the pro's enjoyed them. It's another thing to use a pro brewer as a reference for homebrewers just as clueless on the topic:
Click to expand...

If you consistently need a disclaimer, you need to change your approach. Either way, this tempest in a teapot is certain to keep me awake at night. :drunk:

None of the home-brewers Yooper referenced are "pros". Even Palmer is "just" an author and not a "pro brewer". That's the Internet cult of personality talking.

But I'd love to see your published scholarly works on hop utilization and effects based on boil processes to back up these facts of yours, as you've made it clearly obvious that multiple tastings and medals are not an accurate gauge of a beer's qualities.
 
Homercidal said:
Ok, so wait. I want smooth bitterness in my IPAs, so tell me how do you do this FWH thing?? I'm already keeping the sulfate amounts down into balanced territory, (I didn't like the bitterness I got from jumping them up), and using late hap additions to provide more flavor. After all, an AIPA isn't THAT much more bitter than a regular IPA. (BJCP recommends 40-60 for English IPA and 40-70 for American IPA). So far that's been working great for me, especially the late hops additions.

What I've noticed, though, is that my IPAs are usually a bit harsh right at the beginning, and after 2-3 weeks in the keg they mellow out to where I prefer them, with plenty of flavor. I also prefer a more balanced profile. The BJCP says, " Hop flavor is medium to high, and should reflect an American hop character with citrusy, floral, resinous, piney or fruity aspects. Medium-high to very high hop bitterness, although the malt backbone will support the strong hop character and provide the best balance."

I know others who prefer a drier malt presence and a stronger bitterness in their IPAs, but I just like mine to be well balanced, with plenty of American hop variety flavor. So will this FWH technique maybe help me achieve a smoother hop flavor without having to wait 2-3 weeks for my beer to mellow? I just brewed a batch, so it might be a couple of months before I get to try this.
Click to expand...

What have you been using to bitter with? Certain hops to me don't change much between FWH and 60minute additons like Chinook or Columbus. Both taste overly harsh and bitter, like someone is scraping my tongue rough kind of bitter regardless of the amounts used.
 
bobbrews said:
FWH completely prevents any ability to obtain an upfront bitterness.
Click to expand...

That's an absurd statement. FWH simply oxidizes some of the hop compounds, primarily cohumulone, which is a major component of the "harsh" or "upfront" bitterness. It doesn't eliminate it completely, or prevent any of it from being present. Too much cohumulone creates an unpleasant overly harsh bitterness, and FWH can help keep cohumulone levels in balance to prevent this. It's very easy to achieve high cohumulone levels and the upfront bitterness they create while using the FWH technique if hop varieties high in cohumulone are used. In fact, it's easy enough to get more harsh, upfront bitterness than most commercial examples of the style, even using FWH.

And your assertions elsewhere in this thread that a lot of the "upfront" or "harsh" bitterness is required for the style seems a bit off. I've not seen any wording remotely similar in any style guideline for American IPA. Several well known commercial breweries use hops low in cohumulone for their IPA's, and often use a bittering charge so small that it only contributes 3-6 IBU's, specifically to reduce the harsh bitterness from cohumulone. Matt Brynildson (Firestone Walker) and Peter Zien (Alesmith) both use these techniques and others to keep cohumulone levels in check. I don't hear any complaints that Union Jack (back to back gold medals in the IPA category at GABF) or Alesmith IPA don't have enough upfront bitterness, and aren't brewed to style. In fact, Alesmith IPA is listed by BJCP as a commercial example of the style.
 
Homercidal said:
I know others who prefer a drier malt presence and a stronger bitterness in their IPAs, but I just like mine to be well balanced, with plenty of American hop variety flavor. So will this FWH technique maybe help me achieve a smoother hop flavor without having to wait 2-3 weeks for my beer to mellow? I just brewed a batch, so it might be a couple of months before I get to try this.
Click to expand...

I have similar tastes, and use a combination of FWH, hop-bursting, and avoiding hops that are really high in cohumulone, like Chinook and Columbus. I think of those, the FWH has the smallest impact though.
 
I've FWH before, didn't notice a difference. It wasn't a scientific study, so I make no claims.

I don't ever do it now since I like to add my first hop addition after the hot break. The polyphenols from the hops make the initial boil much, much more messy.
 
I like beer. And IPAs. Sometimes I do FWH. Sometimes I don't. They all taste good. Am I doing something wrong? Hmmmm.... beer. :mug:
 
You know what, you can not eat mac n' cheese with a spoon. You just can't! You can only eat it with a fork. You see, the fork allows the cheese to flow between the fingers of the fork allowing for a betting flavor uptake on your palette. Anybody who eats mac n' cheese with a spoon is just eating it wrong and will never be able to have the same flavor that people who use forks will have. I don't care what anybody else thinks or anybody else's opinion on the subject as you are wrong! Spoons will never have the same effect on the flavor of the mac n' cheese that can be obtained with using a fork. Don't try to argue your point with me or even try to give me your opinion as your just wrong.

mmmmmmmm....Mac n' cheese! -> with a fork!
 
It has generally been my life experience that if you need to add a disclaimer to anything coming out of your mouth (or your keyboard) you should probably reconsider. Along the lines of starting a sentence with, "I'm not trying to be an a$$hole, but...." If you start a sentence in this manner, you are, and you are. Doesn't matter if the qualifier comes before, during, or after your declaration.
 
one-L said:
It has generally been my life experience that if you need to add a disclaimer to anything coming out of your mouth (or your keyboard) you should probably reconsider. Along the lines of starting a sentence with, "I'm not trying to be an a$$hole, but...." If you start a sentence in this manner, you are, and you are. Doesn't matter if the qualifier comes before, during, or after your declaration.
Click to expand...

Well, you just have to add "I'm just sayin is all" at the end, and it totally puts you in the clear and disassociates you from anything negative you might have said.
 
bottlebomber said:
Well, you just have to add "I'm just sayin is all" at the end, and it totally puts you in the clear and disassociates you from anything negative you might have said.
Click to expand...

Oh, but of course. I mean, I thought that was generally understood and went without saying. I mean everybody who's anybody already knows that you can say whatever you want, to whoever you want, in any manner, so long as you add the magic words. Anyone that doesn't know that must be retarded. I'm just saying.

Aiming somewhere back in the vicinity of on topic, like the recipe, though I haven't tried FWH yet. I have been inspired by this thread (and the fact that I now have my equipment (mostly) finalized), to give it a shot on my next IPA. You might consider splitting that last Citra addition up though and maybe do half at 10 and half right at flameout. Late citra FTW.
 
bottlebomber said:
Well, you just have to add "I'm just sayin is all" at the end, and it totally puts you in the clear and disassociates you from anything negative you might have said.
Click to expand...

Or have the following disclaimer as your sig:

"*Disclaimer: I tell it like it is with brutal honesty, passionated opinion, and sometimes a bit of sarcastic humor. Try not to take it personal.*"

But if you do your doing it wrong (like FWH). :p
 
TahoeRy said:
You know what, you can not eat mac n' cheese with a spoon. You just can't! You can only eat it with a fork. You see, the fork allows the cheese to flow between the fingers of the fork allowing for a betting flavor uptake on your palette. Anybody who eats mac n' cheese with a spoon is just eating it wrong and will never be able to have the same flavor that people who use forks will have. I don't care what anybody else thinks or anybody else's opinion on the subject as you are wrong! Spoons will never have the same effect on the flavor of the mac n' cheese that can be obtained with using a fork. Don't try to argue your point with me or even try to give me your opinion as your just wrong.

mmmmmmmm....Mac n' cheese! -> with a fork!
Click to expand...

I think it's time to "stick a fork" in this thread. Not a spoon but a fork. Spoons are for absolute noobs & sissies. My mac n' cheese is award winning. Always. Never forget that. Marie Callendar said so. :D
 
Is this debate really over! Man, I was getting some good laughs out of this thread. Well OP, I bet you didn't expect this when you posted your question but I hope you got some good advice out of all of that back and forth. I would say that almost everybody gave you solid advice, except for my mac n' cheese commit. I will go ahead and revoke that, spoons are ok. Good luck on your IPA!
 
TahoeRy said:
Is this debate really over! Man, I was getting some good laughs out of this thread. Well OP, I bet you didn't expect this when you posted your question but I hope you got some good advice out of all of that back and forth. I would say that almost everybody gave you solid advice, except for my mac n' cheese commit. I will go ahead and revoke that, spoons are ok. Good luck on your IPA!
Click to expand...

Of the threads I have made thus far this is my favorite. It got a little off topic but I think it went right where it needed top. This thread has given me a few good laughs.

This thread has changed my plan for the recipe. I'm going to make the exact same recipe one standard bittering one FWH. I would like the opportunity to try this one head to head. If any body near Kansas city that would like to help me determine witch is the best (to you) let me know and you can come over, discuss the issue at hand with a few pints of home brew. :mug:

Thanks for the good time,
Marcus
 
Jeepaholic said:
Of the threads I have made thus far this is my favorite. It got a little off topic but I think it went right where it needed top. This thread has given me a few good laughs.

This thread has changed my plan for the recipe. I'm going to make the exact same recipe one standard bittering one FWH. I would like the opportunity to try this one head to head. If any body near Kansas city that would like to help me determine witch is the best (to you) let me know and you can come over, discuss the issue at hand with a few pints of home brew. :mug:

Thanks for the good time,
Marcus
Click to expand...

I must say Marcus, thanks for starting this thread. It has been a treat to read with all the passion, rage, and sarcasm that came about. Also please let us known how it turns out. I'm fascinated to see what you think and what the results will be.
 
TahoeRy said:
You know what, you can not eat mac n' cheese with a spoon. You just can't! You can only eat it with a fork. You see, the fork allows the cheese to flow between the fingers of the fork allowing for a betting flavor uptake on your palette. Anybody who eats mac n' cheese with a spoon is just eating it wrong and will never be able to have the same flavor that people who use forks will have. I don't care what anybody else thinks or anybody else's opinion on the subject as you are wrong! Spoons will never have the same effect on the flavor of the mac n' cheese that can be obtained with using a fork. Don't try to argue your point with me or even try to give me your opinion as your just wrong.

mmmmmmmm....Mac n' cheese! -> with a fork!
Click to expand...

You missed hte main point with this analogy--eating it with a spoon means that although it may be good food, it's no longer Mac 'n' Cheese! :ban:
 
(looks around carefully) Ok, I think it's safe for me to chime in on this thread now. Just my experience, but I brew a lot of IPA/IIPA and hopped up pales and ambers. I really like the results I get from FWHing and loads of late and whirlpool hopping in combo. Hop bursting, I guess you'd call it. IME, yes, the bitterness perceived from FWing is more smooth, mellow, whatever, but it's still there and can easily be made more assertive by upping the size of the FW addition. You can also up the perception of smooth hops bitterness with an extended hop stand/whirlpool at middle of the road temps (170º-190ºF). I've made many a great IPA/IIPA using FWH and late or knockout hops only, many of them with an assertive, up front bitterness that may not have been sharp or harsh, but was definitely noticeable.

Sometimes I think people's opinions just get the better of them and well, you know what they say about opinions. ;)
 
DuckiesRevenge said:
I must say Marcus, thanks for starting this thread. It has been a treat to read with all the passion, rage, and sarcasm that came about. Also please let us known how it turns out. I'm fascinated to see what you think and what the results will be.
Click to expand...

Hehe, no kidding!

FWH = Serious Business!

:tank:
 
That was an entertaining 8 pages. I get most of my science on hops from Oregon State University, which has an amazing beer research program and Professor Shellhammer, who does a ton of research on hops. Shellhammer tested the idea that it is polyphenols in the hops that caused harshness. He found a "significant" perception of harsh bitterness and astringency in beer due to polyphenols. He found it also increased the the bitterness to linger longer.

This bit is from other research on polyphenols that I will apply to first wort hopping. Believe at your own risk, I don't have the time to piece together all the sources right now.

First wort hopping oxidizes the polyphenols in the hops which allows the polyphenols (makes it a harsh, astringent bitterness) to readily complex out. These compounds are then removed with a nice hot break, thus giving us more iso-acids and less polyphenols. Higher IBUs with less harshness. Bittering hops added after the hot break release polyphenols that are not as readily oxidized and are less soluble in the wort.

Wasn't it Yooper posting about being a big fan of strong, healthy hot breaks? Her hot break obsession combined with a FWH could be providing her beers with significant IBU contributions without much harshness and leaving a smooth, uniform bitterness.

On a side note, Miller owns a patent on a process described as "Method of preparing a full hop flavoured beverage of low bitterness". It patents the method of preparing light stable, hop flavoured, fermented beverages that possess less bitterness, yet have comparable hop flavour to a fermented beverage prepared with whole hops with the use of a high polyphenol hop flavouring residue that originates from a solid spent-hop material resultant from super-critical CO2 extraction of whole hops.
 
theveganbrewer said:
On a side note, Miller owns a patent on a process described as "Method of preparing a full hop flavoured beverage of low bitterness". It patents the method of preparing light stable, hop flavoured, fermented beverages that possess less bitterness, yet have comparable hop flavour to a fermented beverage prepared with whole hops with the use of a high polyphenol hop flavouring residue that originates from a solid spent-hop material resultant from super-critical CO2 extraction of whole hops.
Click to expand...

That sounds really interesting. Miller should release a beer that uses the process. Full hop flavored would be nice.
 
mmb said:
That sounds really interesting. Miller should release a beer that uses the process. Full hop flavored would be nice.
Click to expand...

They do, any beer in clear glass bottles has this hop extract in it. Not sure they don't use it in everything else too.
 
theveganbrewer said:
They do, any beer in clear glass bottles has this hop extract in it. Not sure they don't use it in everything else too.
Click to expand...

joke_over_your_head.jpg
 
theveganbrewer said:
Wasn't it Yooper posting about being a big fan of strong, healthy hot breaks? Her hot break obsession combined with a FWH could be providing her beers with significant IBU contributions without much harshness and leaving a smooth, uniform bitterness.
Click to expand...

"Obsession" with hot break? Me? :D

But I do think you are really on to something there.

I did this just yesterday- FWH with 1.5 ounces of hops (10 gallon batch, fly sparge so the FWH sat in 170 degree wort for almost an hour before boiling), then tons of late hops.

IBUs calculate pretty high, but I've made this beer about 50 times and it's not harshly bitter. It's got enough bittering to balance the malts for sure, and it's firmly bitter on the tongue, but it's not a lingering harshness. Instead, the bitterness is there but immediately the hops flavors and aromas take center stage.

Thanks for the info on the polyphenols. I'm not any sort of expert, and appreciate input from others. The only time I've really thought about polyphenols is when I'm lagering. One of the purposes of lagering near freezing is to "drop out polyphenols", as a German lager should be bitter without harshness as well.
 
Just my 2 cents, but FWH = meh... I'm usually using a fairly smooth bittering hop to begin with and loading up on late addition hops. Any difference from the technique seems to be lost in the mix.

FWH is a pretty old technique that seems to have come back into style. It was developed before any of the modern high AA% hops though. I suspect that if I was bittering with 4oz of EKG instead of 1oz of magnum or warrior, FWH would make a more substantial difference.
 

Similar threads

S
Autumn Wheat Ale
Replies
5
Views
1K
kwilson16
kwilson16
Zippy123
Feedback on recipe to split mash for two different beers
Replies
2
Views
427
Zippy123
Zippy123
jturman35
Red IPA recipe
Replies
16
Views
2K
Indian_villager
I
Clint Yeastwood
Failure Beer
Replies
9
Views
828
Zambezi Special
Zambezi Special
H
Citrusy Pale Ale to clean out the freezer
Replies
7
Views
783
lumpher
lumpher

Latest posts

Back
Top