Hey Martin! A question about bicarbonate

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kenlenard

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I have been on an odyssey over the past couple of years attempting to get the right water profiles for various styles. I recently found out that some bulk RO water I was using was not as low in TDS and bicarbonate as I thought so from now on I will be using distilled water to dilute my bicarbonate-heavy tap water. Martin Brungard had commented on a Pils thread in the recipe forum and it made me think of bicarb and what it actually does when you make a pale or amber-colored beer. From experience, I know it creates a harsh finish in the beer. Another guess is that it messes with your ability to get the beer clear. The beers where I have lowered the bicarb level with distilled water seem to come out clearer. Also, it seems that bicarb can wreak havoc on head formation and stability. The lower the bicarb, the better, cleaner and clearer the beer becomes, IMO. What other effects does a high bicarb level have on the final beer?

Ps. The bicarb level in my source water is 138ppm and I make a lot of beers between 5 and 12 SRM. Cheers.
 
Ken, rather than paraphrase I'm going to quote from Greg Noonan's "Brewing Lager Beer".

"Carbonate is a strongly alkaline buffer (which) goes into solution as hydrogen carbonates...Carbonate resists increases in the mash acidity by neutralizing acids as they are formed. (It keeps the pH high, in other words) It also hinders gelatinization of starch by alpha amylase, inpedes trub flocculation during the cold break and increases risk of contamination in the ferment. It contributes a harsh, bitter flavor overwhelming in delicate lagers...Preferably, carbonate should be less than 50ppm when pale malt...is used."

So this pretty much matches your brewing experiences.
 
When this comes up I always suggest that people take a glass of water, add some baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to it and taste. Do you like that taste? I certainly don't. If you have high bicarbonate levels in your beer you will have that unpleasant taste underlying everything. This really came through to me when my wife bought us a house in the country. The well is loaded with bicarbonate and at first I couldn't drink it. I was going to the store and buying bottled water which I thought tasted awful too. Then it occurred to me to read the label. Some of these bottled waters are loaded with bicarbonate as well and I must therefore conclude that some people like that taste. That's why ask whether or not you like it rather than declaring you won't.

Now the OP and Greg Noonan both blame carbonate and bicarbonate for bad things in beer and I don't doubt, based on the taste tests, that there is some truth to this but there is more to it than the action of bicarbonate ion (there is very, very little carbonate in brewing water and even less in beer). Bicarbonate is actually an indicator of the pH. If there are equal concentrations of bicarbonate ion and carbonic acid molecules in a water/wort/beer the pH is 6.38 which is too high. It doesn't matter if there are 2 mmol/L of each or 1 or 0.1 the pH is still too high. (The fact that the 1:1 number is 6.8 says that bicarbonate is not strongly alkaline at all but it is a base nevertheless).

At a proper mash pH, lets call it 5.4 for purposes of discussion, there should be 10 times as much carbonic as bicarbonate. Since carbonic is dissolved CO2 gas and that is of limited solubility it departs the solution at proper mash pH and you are left with very little bicarbonate when pH is set correctly. Thus if you bring the mash to proper pH you will have disposed of the bicarbonate by converting it to CO2 gas. If your water has high bicarbonate it takes a lot of acid to effect this conversion. If your water's bicarbonate is lower it takes less but acid is still required because base malt is also a buffer which tries to control mash pH to a higher level than desired. So it is not enough to dispose of bicarbonate. You must supply more acid to get proper mash pH.

If you brew with distilled or RO water and don't supply acid your beer will still taste muddy, take longer to clear, lager more slowly etc. even though no bicarbonate is present. IOW bicarbonate does not deserve all the blame. It is really pH that needs to be attended to. But attending to bicarbonate is part of controlling pH.
 
Thanks guys... much appreciated. BigEd: I have read that paragraph before but it's been awhile. AJ: All I know is that I can brew with 100% filtered tap water (138pp bicarb) and get my mash pH correct (by using CaCl, CaSO4 and also lactic acid if necessary) for a pale beer and end of with a harsh, unsmooth, tangy finish in the beer. As I continue to brew with water that is lower in bicarbonate, I continue to keep an eye on proper mash pH, calcium and chloride levels, etc. and I expect things to improve. My guess is that you're saying that lowering bicarb alone is not the answer... only if it's combined with keeping proper mash pH and proper ion levels for the style will it make a difference. To take that one step further, I'm also strongly considering some amount of dilution for beers in the 7 to 12 SRM range as well as pale beers. I made an SRM 12 beer last year and for whatever the reason, I decided to use 50% distilled water and just bring the other numbers (Ca, Cl, SO4) back to where they were before the dilution and the beer came out fantastically smooth and clear as well. Cheers & thanks again.
 
Bicarbonate is not a culprit when it is properly paired with an acid. That reaction produces H2O and CO2, neither of which are a problem. However, the issues rise quickly when excess bicarbonate exists in wort or there isn't enough acidity in the wort to reduce pH into a desirable range. When the wort pH is high, color rises, hop utilization and tannin extraction rises...and flavor suffers.

Bicarbonate is a weak base and many of the acids produced in wort and beer are weak also. So their reaction (neutralization) is not guaranteed. I'm not a fan of AJ's example of mixing baking soda in water since its likely that it is mixed at an excessive concentration in the glass and there are few acids in that water to neutralize the bicarbonate, as there are in wort. However, I don't fully doubt that bicarbonate has a flavor impact in water.

It is a balancing act. As AJ said, you have to attend to excessive bicarbonate in brewing water. Ken, you are effectively using one option to reduce bicarbonate (alkalinity) in your brewing water. However, I feel that you are ignoring a simpler and less expensive option, acidification. The modest bicarbonate level in that water should be no problem for phosphoric acid use and only a possible problem for lactic acid.

Bicarbonate is what I feel is the number one problem for most brewers. Tailoring that level to match the grist and reducing it to low level in sparging water makes all the difference in brewing. The rest of brewing water chemistry becomes nuance once the bicarbonate issue is addressed.
 
Thanks Martin. We have discussed the neutralization of bicarbonate with acid in the past. I do not have phosphoric acid right now, only 88% lactic acid. On my next trip to the supply house, I may pick up some phosphoric acid. Can you shine a light on the best way to use it? If I were making a pale beer with 100% of my filtered tap water and added some CaCl (maybe 2-3g in the mash of 4 gallons) and my calcium, chloride and sulfate numbers were where I wanted them, my pH would probably be very close... within a few tenths of a point. At that point I would use my lactic acid to get it in the range and call it a day. But my pale-colored beers were not coming out smooth with 100% filtered tap water so my thought was that the level of bicarbonate in the water was causing a harsh character in the beer. In that case, how would I employ the phosphoric acid? Also, how do you determine how much bicarbonate has been 'neutralized' by the acid? Cheers and thanks again.
 
Bicarbonate is not a culprit when it is properly paired with an acid. That reaction produces H2O and CO2, neither of which are a problem.
Bicarbonate properly paired with acid is bicarbonate removed (as CO2). The art lies in determining how to dispose of (remove) the bicarbonate, from one point of view, or from the other, set the pH properly in which case the bicarbonate has been removed.


Bicarbonate is a weak base and many of the acids produced in wort and beer are weak also. So their reaction (neutralization) is not guaranteed.
Some of the acids are quite strong, some not so. But it should be clear that a mix of malts that has a DI pH of 5.7 is not going to pull water at pH 7 below 5.7 even if it has no bicarbonate.

I'm not a fan of AJ's example of mixing baking soda in water since its likely that it is mixed at an excessive concentration in the glass and there are few acids in that water to neutralize the bicarbonate, as there are in wort.
Then they can go to the store and look for one of the bottled waters that has high bicarbonate content and taste that. I want them to taste bicarbonate. They can't do that unless there is some there to taste. If then put bicarbonate in water and reduce pH to 4.5 then there won't be much bicarbonate to taste. The point is that they need to reduce pH to the point where that is true i.e. most of it is gone. The higher they allow their pH to be the more bicarbonate there will be. That is, as pointed out in earlier posts, only one of the reasons to reduce pH.


However, I feel that you are ignoring a simpler and less expensive option, acidification. The modest bicarbonate level in that water should be no problem for phosphoric acid use and only a possible problem for lactic acid.
Phosphoric acid is fine unless calcium levels go above the value where calcium precipitates. This doesn't mean you can't still use phosphoric - just that your calcium may not be where you think it is.

Bicarbonate is what I feel is the number one problem for most brewers. Tailoring that level to match the grist and reducing it to low level in sparging water makes all the difference in brewing. The rest of brewing water chemistry becomes nuance once the bicarbonate issue is addressed.

Bicarbonate is, no doubt, enemy number one but, also as noted above, defeating it (i.e. by removing it completely by RO) is not sufficient. One must also acidify the grist to a proper pH.
 
I think bicarbonate's effect of the taste of the beer has more to do with its ability to raise mash and boil pH than the mere presence of bicarbonate ions. At beer pH there are virtually no bicarbonate ions left.

High mash and boil pH can cause the harsh flavors and lingering haze described by Ken.

Kai
 
I think bicarbonate's effect of the taste of the beer has more to do with its ability to raise mash and boil pH than the mere presence of bicarbonate ions. At beer pH there are virtually no bicarbonate ions left.

High mash and boil pH can cause the harsh flavors and lingering haze described by Ken.

Kai

Thank you Kai. I also saw the effects of high mash and boil pH on your site where you had two different worts (one correct pH, one high) next to each other and I agree with your statetment... the difference is remarkable. Probably not just in appearance either but in taste. I think the bottom line for me is to determine how much dilution should take place (more, possibly up to 90% for pale beers like a Czech Pils and less, maybe 25% for beers in the 7-12 SRM range), make sure my other ion levels are reasonable, make sure the mash/sparge/pre-boil wort pH is correct and then pray to the Gods of beer that everything else is in line. My experience tells me that even amber-colored beers can benefit from a reduction in bicarbonate. Thanks again!
 
Thank you Kai. I also saw the effects of high mash and boil pH on your site where you had two different worts (one correct pH, one high) next to each other and I agree with your statetment... the difference is remarkable. Probably not just in appearance either but in taste. I think the bottom line for me is to determine how much dilution should take place (more, possibly up to 90% for pale beers like a Czech Pils and less, maybe 25% for beers in the 7-12 SRM range), make sure my other ion levels are reasonable, make sure the mash/sparge/pre-boil wort pH is correct and then pray to the Gods of beer that everything else is in line. My experience tells me that even amber-colored beers can benefit from a reduction in bicarbonate. Thanks again!

yep. key is to stat with a good mash pH (around 5.3-5.5 is my preference) and keep the sparge water from raising that pH. The later may mean acidification or simply sparging with R/O water.

Kai
 
I think bicarbonate's effect of the taste of the beer has more to do with its ability to raise mash and boil pH than the mere presence of bicarbonate ions. At beer pH there are virtually no bicarbonate ions left.

Yes, I agree with that. Proper pH, proper bicarbonate i.e. very little.

As to how to use acid (phosphoric or otherwise) the simplest method is doubtless to just add it in small increments to the water until mash pH is reached. This is before mashing, BTW. If your starting water is at pH 7 or above acidifying to pH 5.5 will remove about 90% of the alkalinity and you can then proceed to use this water as if it were decarbonated i.e. as if you had removed the bicarbonate with to that level by RO dilution. If you use a different acid, for example CRS (which is actually a blend) to take the water to pH 5.5 you will take the alkalinity a little lower. This is because phosphate is itself basic whereas sulfate and chloride are not (or much less so anyway).

I think I mentioned earlier that if the water is high is calcium some may be stripped if phosphoric is used.

Note that if you overshoot i.e. add too much acid you then simply add more water until the pH gets back up to 5.5. Strips are probably good enough for pH determination for this purpose but a meter is better.

If you have RO readily available that's obviously easier as you just take it, add some CaCl2 and CaSO4 and brew (and sauermalz or lactic to get the grains to pH 5.5 or whatver). If you don't acidification by this method may be simpler. No measuring. You will still probably need to add CaCl2, CaSO4 (if you like sulfate) and sauermalz or lactic acid.
 
Yes, I agree with that. Proper pH, proper bicarbonate i.e. very little.

As to how to use acid (phosphoric or otherwise) the simplest method is doubtless to just add it in small increments to the water until mash pH is reached. This is before mashing, BTW. If your starting water is at pH 7 or above acidifying to pH 5.5 will remove about 90% of the alkalinity and you can then proceed to use this water as if it were decarbonated i.e. as if you had removed the bicarbonate with to that level by RO dilution. If you use a different acid, for example CRS (which is actually a blend) to take the water to pH 5.5 you will take the alkalinity a little lower. This is because phosphate is itself basic whereas sulfate and chloride are not (or much less so anyway).

I think I mentioned earlier that if the water is high is calcium some may be stripped if phosphoric is used.

Note that if you overshoot i.e. add too much acid you then simply add more water until the pH gets back up to 5.5. Strips are probably good enough for pH determination for this purpose but a meter is better.

If you have RO readily available that's obviously easier as you just take it, add some CaCl2 and CaSO4 and brew (and sauermalz or lactic to get the grains to pH 5.5 or whatver). If you don't acidification by this method may be simpler. No measuring. You will still probably need to add CaCl2, CaSO4 (if you like sulfate) and sauermalz or lactic acid.

Okay, so here is where it gets mildly fuzzy for me. Bear with me. If I had eight gallons of my filtered tap water (pH 6.6, bicarb 138, Ca 34, Cl 21, SO4 27) and added some sort of acid to it until the pH was 5.5 and then added only pale malt (which should keep the pH in the same area code), that would be the same as diluting to remove the bicarb? If so, how do I know how much bicarb is left after all of that? Also, if I were to do that for a beer that was say, 10-12 SRM, I assume the addition of darker malts would lower the pH into a zone that was too low. I guess I'm having a hard time determining how the addition of acid reduces the bicarb level and by how much. This angle interested me because, if I'm understanding correctly, this would be a way for me to use my filtered tap water without lugging RO or distilled water around. Maybe you could explain it as it might apply to making a soft beer like a Czech Pils. Lower the pH of the water to 5.5, add the pale malts and water to the mash, check the pH, further adjust with lactic acid if necessary, etc.? Also, what does this do to my calcium, chloride and sulfate level and what if I wanted to raise calcium because I'm only at 34ppm to begin with? Hmm, I apologize in advance for the confusion.
 
Ken,

I would not focus at bicarbonate levels as much. It's more about the amount of acid that you have to add to get your mash pH into an acceptable range. For lighter beers you may find that the amount to add may affect the flavor negatively and thus you would be better off when starting out with lower bicarbonate.

Kai
 
Okay, so here is where it gets mildly fuzzy for me. Bear with me. If I had eight gallons of my filtered tap water (pH 6.6, bicarb 138, Ca 34, Cl 21, SO4 27)
You've got some magnesium and/or sodium you are not telling me about so I'm putting in 13 mg/L magnesium and 15.25 mg/L magnesium
...and added some sort of acid to it until the pH was 5.5 and then added only pale malt (which should keep the pH in the same area code), that would be the same as diluting to remove the bicarb?

Not exactly the same, of course. If you add phosphoric acid it would take 32 mL of 10% acid and you would have 21.6 ppm alkalinity left out of the original 113. IOW your alkalinity would have been reduced 81% and your bicarbonate would be at 27 mg/L. You would not have saturated WRT apatite and no calcium would precipitate.

If you used sulfuric acid your alkalinity would be a wee bit lower at 19.8.

While acid gets rid of the bicarbonate (or the lions's share of it) it obviously does not reduce chloride or sulfate or calcium (unless you saturate WRT apatite) and it replaces all the bicarbonate removed with sulfate or phosphates. With RO all ions get diluted by an equal factor and no acid anion(s) is/are added.

If so, how do I know how much bicarb is left after all of that?
For starters you should be thinking in terms of alkalinity: not bicarbonate, not residual alkalinity. For acidification to pH 5.5 starting from 6.6 all but about 20% of alkalinity is removed. How do you know that? Well you have to do some pretty hairy calculations but I am trying to come up with some curves that include all those for you. Equipped with that set of curves you will use a curve for target pH and follow it to starting pH and read off the percentage of alkalinity not converted.

Also, if I were to do that for a beer that was say, 10-12 SRM, I assume the addition of darker malts would lower the pH into a zone that was too low.

When I say it is like RO water what I mean is that if you plan your brew as if the alkalinity were 0 as opposed to 112 you won't be far off. That's what I'd do. I'd just use 3% sauermalz and go unless I wanted some extra chloride and sulfate.


I guess I'm having a hard time determining how the addition of acid reduces the bicarb level and by how much.

How is easy:
HCO3- + HA --> CO2 + H2O + A-

How much is a little harder. That's why I hope to be able to offer curves. There are some out there but they were a first run and are in error. Corrected ones are in the works.

This angle interested me because, if I'm understanding correctly, this would be a way for me to use my filtered tap water without lugging RO or distilled water around. Maybe you could explain it as it might apply to making a soft beer like a Czech Pils.
Czech pils would be one case where you would not want to take this approach as the best Boh. Pils is made with the lowest mineral content water possible consistent with having enough calcium to keep the yeast happy and chloride to give it a bit of body.

Lower the pH of the water to 5.5, add the pale malts and water to the mash, check the pH, further adjust with lactic acid if necessary, etc.?

That is how you would do it.

Also, what does this do to my calcium, chloride and sulfate level and what if I wanted to raise calcium because I'm only at 34ppm to begin with?

Your calcium, chloride and sulfate levels are unchanged as you have not diluted them (except by the volume of the added acid). With respect to the calcium: you should not try to raise it above 112 mg/L as the solution would be saturated at that point and it would probably just precipitate out.

Hmm, I apologize in advance for the confusion.

The questions are well put and reasonable ones. To summarize:

You add acid to a chosen mash pH.
You look on a curve to see if your alkalinity reduction is acceptable
You look on another curve to see how much extra calcium you can tolerate.
 
Thank you again. These curves will be very interesting to see. How do you plan to unveil these curves? My suggestion... a Superbowl ad! ;) Cheers and thanks again.
 
Thank you again. These curves will be very interesting to see. How do you plan to unveil these curves?

A preliminary set is out there at http://wetnewf.org/pdfs/alkalinity-reduction-with.html

Take these with a grain of salt as I know there are errors!

My suggestion... a Superbowl ad! ;)
Well, yes. That's what I had in mind! As the site is hosted by GoDaddy I thought I'd see if they wanted me to do one of their ads.


If you aren't chuckling at this point see

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c4#/video/bestoftv/2013/02/04/exp-early-heiman-godaddy.cnn
 
You will still probably need to add CaCl2, CaSO4 (if you like sulfate) and sauermalz or lactic acid.

This is an interesting statement. I have come to the conclusion that I am not a fan of an overuse of sulfate. I have no problem adding it to a beer where I would like to see the hops pop a little bit but it occurs to me that it's easy to overdo it and it seems like a preference like anything else. My preference on sulfate is similar to my preference with hops... they should be in the equation but not necessarily a giant part of it. I know people love their hops but I prefer balance on the hops and the water profile. Great stuff guys! Thanks so much for the help.
 
You are in a minority but not alone. Most craft brew/home brew afficionados seem to want hops hops and more hops. I'm associated with a brewpub where the guy is an excellent Kölsch brewer, has gotten medals at GABF for his Kölsch's etc but the patrons don't by them (and they are good, believe me). They buy his insanely hopped stuff. Whatever they'll buy is OK with me (and him) so that's fine but not everyone likes beer that way. I'm one of them.
 
This is an interesting statement. I have come to the conclusion that I am not a fan of an overuse of sulfate. I have no problem adding it to a beer where I would like to see the hops pop a little bit but it occurs to me that it's easy to overdo it and it seems like a preference like anything else. My preference on sulfate is similar to my preference with hops... they should be in the equation but not necessarily a giant part of it. I know people love their hops but I prefer balance on the hops and the water profile. Great stuff guys! Thanks so much for the help.

Ken, I'm going to try and digest the great information here and regurgitate my simplified layman's response.

Ken,

I would not focus at bicarbonate levels as much. It's more about the amount of acid that you have to add to get your mash pH into an acceptable range. For lighter beers you may find that the amount to add may affect the flavor negatively and thus you would be better off when starting out with lower bicarbonate.

Kai


I think I mentioned earlier that if the water is high is calcium some may be stripped if phosphoric is used.

Note that if you overshoot i.e. add too much acid you then simply add more water until the pH gets back up to 5.5. Strips are probably good enough for pH determination for this purpose but a meter is better.

If you have RO readily available that's obviously easier as you just take it, add some CaCl2 and CaSO4 and brew (and sauermalz or lactic to get the grains to pH 5.5 or whatver). If you don't acidification by this method may be simpler. No measuring. You will still probably need to add CaCl2, CaSO4 (if you like sulfate) and sauermalz or lactic acid.

While acid gets rid of the bicarbonate (or the lions's share of it) it obviously does not reduce chloride or sulfate or calcium (unless you saturate WRT apatite) and it replaces all the bicarbonate removed with sulfate or phosphates. With RO all ions get diluted by an equal factor and no acid anion(s) is/are added.

Because of these reasons and because you brew a lot of lighter colored lagers I still think the simplest way out is to use either all RO (assuming your local supplier straightens out their filter) or distilled and then make some small Calcium salt additions as needed. This will save you from trying to deal with how much residual carbonates are left after dilution as well as any SO4 problems or excess acid causing precipitation of Calcium or intruding on the beer's flavor. Yes you will have to lug the acquired water back to the house but you will be almost certain, after adjustment, that the water is where you want it for the beer, especially for the upcoming Czech Pils. :mug:
 
... especially for the upcoming Czech Pils. :mug:
Btw... I brewed that beer last week. Hochkurz mash 145x30 and 160x60, 90% distilled water, 10% filtered tap (for 'trace amounts') and 3.5g of calcium chloride. Durst Turbo Pils, Weyermann Vienna (and Munich too?), Hallertau Tradition for bittering and some late Saaz with Wyeast 2124 Bohemian Lager yeast. It smells like beer heaven as it ferments in the fridge... thanks to you guys!
 
You are in a minority but not alone. Most craft brew/home brew afficionados seem to want hops hops and more hops. I'm associated with a brewpub where the guy is an excellent Kölsch brewer, has gotten medals at GABF for his Kölsch's etc but the patrons don't by them (and they are good, believe me). They buy his insanely hopped stuff. Whatever they'll buy is OK with me (and him) so that's fine but not everyone likes beer that way. I'm one of them.
I know I'm probably getting precariously off-topic, :off: but... I have always been a fan of balanced, beery beers. Amber lagers and ales, Red lagers and ales, Pale ale, Bitters, Oktobers, Viennas, Marzens, Bocks, Dunkels, Helles, Blonde ales, West Coast Lagers, Kolsch, Altbier, etc. My highest IBU beers probably come in around 40 or so. I can drink ultra-hoppy IPAs or Bourbon Barrel stouts when I'm out or at homebrew gatherings but I wouldn't want 5 gallons of it around because it would take forever for me to drink it. I do not make stouts, porters, IPAs, Hefes or Belgians. Most homebrewers wince at that but that's me. There is PLENTY of wiggle room in the styles I like to make to keep my creative juices flowing. Thanks again for the help! Very helpful and informative thread.
 
As AJ said, you have to attend to excessive bicarbonate in brewing water. Ken, you are effectively using one option to reduce bicarbonate (alkalinity) in your brewing water. However, I feel that you are ignoring a simpler and less expensive option, acidification. The modest bicarbonate level in that water should be no problem for phosphoric acid use and only a possible problem for lactic acid.

Does it matter in the finished beer which of these 2 methods are used (assuming same mash pH and ppm of Ca, Cl, SO4 etc in finished beer):

Mix tap water + RO water for both mash and sparge, and use "less" acid malt in grist and acidify sparge water

OR

Use all tap water for mash plus "more" acid malt in grist and use all RO water (no acidification) for sparging.

I'm trying to determine the best way to reduce/neutralize bicarbonate - acid reduction or dilution - all else being equal.
 
The difference that you must always recognize is that each bicarbonate ion removed is, when acid is used, replaced by an equivalent amount of the anion of the acid used but the concentrations of all the other ions stay the same (unless phosphoric acid is used and conditions are such that calcium is stripped). This may be an advantage or disadvantage compared to the dilution method depending on the water and the beer being brewed. On the other hand when dilution is used all ions, not just bicarbonate, are reduced by the same amount. Again, this may be an advantage or disadvantage.
 
The difference that you must always recognize is that each bicarbonate ion removed is, when acid is used, replaced by an equivalent amount of the anion of the acid used but the concentrations of all the other ions stay the same (unless phosphoric acid is used and conditions are such that calcium is stripped). This may be an advantage or disadvantage compared to the dilution method depending on the water and the beer being brewed. On the other hand when dilution is used all ions, not just bicarbonate, are reduced by the same amount. Again, this may be an advantage or disadvantage.

Couple of follow ups AJ - by advantage/disadvantage, are you referring solely to taste? What is the anion of lactic acid
 
Under the assumption that you get mash pH correct by these manipulations and have sufficient calcium then yes, taste is the consideration.

The anion of lactic acid is lactate ion CH3COHCOO-. It is the flavor in many fermented foods such as sauerkraut, sour dough bread and, of course, sour beers.
 
Under the assumption that you get mash pH correct by these manipulations and have sufficient calcium then yes, taste is the consideration.

The anion of lactic acid is lactate ion CH3COHCOO-. It is the flavor in many fermented foods such as sauerkraut, sour dough bread and, of course, sour beers.

Ahhh - the pieces are slowly falling into place. Now I understand why light, delicate ales and lagers should be brewed with RO / soft water rather than acidified tap water. Even though the pH can be manipulated to the desired level when using tap + acid, and the bicarb neutralized, the flavor from the anion may be too pronounced for a Boh pils or Kolsch n'est pa?
 
So, does lactic acid throw the ion balance off? I just want to be sure I understand what I am reading.
 
I'll give you a definite 'it depends' on this. In priciple, yes but there are a few additional things to consider. In a Boh Pils you may want as little of any ions, an- or cat- as you can get. This is the traditional Urquel beer: very low ion water. But chloride tends to lend some body, roundness and sweetness to a beer so you might want some chloride in which case you might want to dispose of alkalinity with hydrochloric acid. Presuming the alkalinity was paired with calcium hardness the end result would be calcium chloride: the same result you would get by adding calcium chloride to RO water. I expect this is a little confusing to you at this point so I guess that may be an advantage of the RO approach I hadn't thought of before. It may be easier to see what's going on.

In delicate lagers that use noble hops sulfate is a disaster so you would not want to use sulfuric acid to dispose of bicarbonate in these beers.

Acid beyond what is required for alkalinity nullification is required for these beers. German brewers use acidulated malt or sauergut i.e. lactic acid for that purpose and, of course, if alkalinity in the water can't be fully dealt with by boiling or lime treatment lactic will take care of that too. Sauermalz adds subtle flavors to beers brewed with it and so, in some cases, lactic flavor, at the level of the violas in an orchestra, may be desirable. But you certainly would not want to add enough to make the lactic a primary flavor. Weyermann, who sells acidulated malt, has a recipe for Berliner Weiße on their website that uses enough that you can taste it.
 
Does it matter in the finished beer which of these 2 methods are used (assuming same mash pH and ppm of Ca, Cl, SO4 etc in finished beer):

Mix tap water + RO water for both mash and sparge, and use "less" acid malt in grist and acidify sparge water

OR

Use all tap water for mash plus "more" acid malt in grist and use all RO water (no acidification) for sparging.

I'm trying to determine the best way to reduce/neutralize bicarbonate - acid reduction or dilution - all else being equal.

On a first level of appoximation I would say no. You are adding the same amount of acid and minerals.

There might be some minor 2nd order differences. I like the idea of mashing with tap water and sparging with R/O water when suitable. That saves you the mixing steps.

Kai
 
Again, many thanks to AJ, Martin and Kai for their help, patience and understanding. I plan to put together a "cheat sheet" of sorts for my own beers where I know how I will dilute, what additions I will make, etc. for each style or at least each color range. I recently went back and looked at a bunch of beers that turned out exceptional and it turns out that most of these can be traced back to using distilled water as a part of the brewing water. They also happen to have a larger amount of calcium chloride added back than gypsum... once again securing the idea that my tastebuds do not like an overabundance of sulfate. In some cases it was 2-to-1 and in some cases, 3-to-1 chloride over sulfate. Cheers and thanks again.
 
This Thread is very helpfull . But , my Problem is on the contrary .

I use only pale malt in the mash and the mash pH is very low ( Under 5 at mash Temp. ) .

My Water Profile :

Ca = 78.5 ppm

Mg = 18.7 ppm

Na = 6.2 ppm

Cl = 28 ppm

SO4 = 20 ppm

Bicarb. = 280 ppm

pH = 7.2

Is it possible to add the crushed malt to the water at room Temperature and let it sit for at least 30 minutes and then check the pH and add enough Baking soda to raise the pH to the desired range and then raising the Temperature to 150 F ?!

Would it lead to harsh after-taste , too ?!

Hector
 
Something does not compute. There is no way you could get mash pH under 5 by mixing pale malt with water with this level of bicarbonate content. How do you measure pH? Besides which mash pH should be measured at room temperature.
 
I agree with AJ, there is no way that a pale malt grist in that water would produce a pH of 5. I cannot even see it getting down to 6.0. Something is wrong in the measurement or the reported water quality.
 
To "Ajdelange" and "mabrungard" :

I use a digital pH Meter which is calibrated before mashing .

The Water Profile is written on the label of the bottled spring water I use .

My Problem is that after adding the crushed grain into the water , it takes relatively long for the pH to drop to the desired range which is 5.3-5.6 at room Temperature . Although , it continues dropping until it reaches under 5.3 . I want the pH to stay in that range because I do a Protein Rest first . My pale malt is moderately modified .

Hector
 
You might want to take a look at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/ph-meter-calibration-302256/ to be sure there isn't some subtlety about pH meter calibration and measurement that you have missed such as the use of fresh buffers, stability checks etc.

It is quite normal for the pH to continue to drop for a long time but 5.3 seems quite low for that level of bicarbonate so I'd do the stability check.
 
It is quite normal for the pH to continue to drop for a long time but 5.3 seems quite low for that level of bicarbonate so I'd do the stability check.

Lets assume that I check the stability of the Meter and it's alright , then what should I do ?

I've also decided to use RO-Water and add CaSO4 , CaCl2 and NaHCO3 and make a mini-mash Test with it . But , I do partial mash and I don't know how much of these salts would be added to the Wort by DME .

I mean , for example , if my DME would bring a great concentration of Sodium and Sulfate to the Wort , then I would probably have a harsh tasting Beer at the end .

Hector
 
Lets assume that I check the stability of the Meter and it's alright , then what should I do ?

Then you will keep looking for the source of the inconsistency. The pH meter check is easy to do as it consists simply of measuring the two buffers at time intervals after the calibration (be sure to rinse and blot in between measurements).
 
Sorry for steering this discussion a bit off course but I have a question regarding bicarbonate. Are there any advantages, taste-wise, to having bicarbonate in your brewing water? I know that if I choose a particular style in the Bru'n Water spreadsheet, it will give a "desired" bicarbonate level. I brew exclusively with RO water which I have a water report for (with typical CaCl2, CaSO4 and acidulated malt additions) using BIAB and make a lot of milds and ESBs. If bicarbonate adds nothing to the taste profile of the beer, then it seems silly for me to be adding NaHCO3 to hit the desired level just so I can neutralize it with an extra ounce or two of acidulated malt. But if bicarbonate does, at low levels, add something positive to the beer, then I'd guess I'd add it. I haven't worried about it and just went with the very low level of bicarbonate that is in my RO water even if it's far below the "desired" level for a style/color of beer. Everything seems ok to me but I'd change protocols if I heard different from the water experts here. Thanks!
 
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