Liberty Peach Berliner Weisse (Sour Mash)

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Just got this started last night and have a couple questions:

- Does the grain added after the mash need to be unmilled to work? I forgot to get a bit unmilled. I pulled a cup of the grain bill out and added when it dropped to 115 deg
- I wasn't thinking and used my normal mash amount (5 gallons), rather than the 3 or so you used. Will this just make for a longer period before the mash is soured?
- What temp should I keep it above? I have it in my 10G igloo with a blanket around it
 
Just got this started last night and have a couple questions:

- Does the grain added after the mash need to be unmilled to work? I forgot to get a bit unmilled. I pulled a cup of the grain bill out and added when it dropped to 115 deg
- I wasn't thinking and used my normal mash amount (5 gallons), rather than the 3 or so you used. Will this just make for a longer period before the mash is soured?
- What temp should I keep it above? I have it in my 10G igloo with a blanket around it


It shouldn't matter if the grain is milled or unmilled.

Your volume should be fine. Just use less sparge water so your gravity and volume is correct.

Try to keep it as warm as you can but not going over 120F once you add the grain/lactobacillus.

Does that all make sense? Fire away with any other questions.
 
I couldn't imagine the milling would change anything, but this is my first sour mash, so who knows.

Will it just take longer to sour the mash, because it's more volume?

For keeping it warm, I think I read someone added hot water to the Tun, is that generally the best method? Specific methods of doing it to disturb as little as possible?

Really excited to get this nailed down before summer. Not sure if i'll add fruit yet or not, I like them just as a base beer, if it's anything like the Bruery's Hottenroth.

Thanks!
 
I couldn't imagine the milling would change anything, but this is my first sour mash, so who knows.

Will it just take longer to sour the mash, because it's more volume?

For keeping it warm, I think I read someone added hot water to the Tun, is that generally the best method? Specific methods of doing it to disturb as little as possible?

Really excited to get this nailed down before summer. Not sure if i'll add fruit yet or not, I like them just as a base beer, if it's anything like the Bruery's Hottenroth.

Thanks!


The volume shouldn't make a huge difference. The gravity is lower since there is more water. I generally use a pH meter or pH strips to figure out how long to leave it. There are a lot of factors involved so you can't always go strictly based on time.

I have a dead fridge that I put a space heater in to keep my temps up. You want to keep oxygen out so opening it to add water probably isn't a great option.

I use a purged corny keg for lacto souring now. It works very well.
 
I checked it yesterday morning and the pH strip seemed to indicate it was at a 4, I'll check again today and probably sparge and boil. You said 3 is a good spot? I don't mind it being tart at all.

I just left it in my cooler wrapped in a blanket. Sample about 36 hrs later was at about 90 still, do I'll just leave it be and see how it goes.
 
Mash ended up to be around a pH of 3 according to my test strips. Boiled for about 45 mins to bring volume down (Wasn't sure when the smell was considered gone, always smelled funky to me haha). Cooled and pitched 2 packs of rehydrated US-05. My OG came out to about 1.05. The sample seemed a little salty to me. I'll be interested to see how it comes out, as the initial taste isn't quite what I was expecting. Given the taste, I definitely think i'll give the peach a try on at least half of it.
 
Well after brewing Sunday, and getting a slow start to fermentation, ive got massive activity now, blowing through the airlock and the 5/16 blowoff tube I replaced it with nearly instantly... I basically had a tablespoon or two of yeast in my airlock haha. We'll see what I come home to tonight!
 
I finally put this one on tap and thought I'd share my experience and thoughts.

I modified the recipe to be inline with a traditional Berliner Weisse and hit right around 3.2% ABV. Having tasted it, I think it's a bit thin this way when keeping the grain percentages, but this is typical of a lot of B-Weisse's I've had. The original recipe probably doesn't have this issue, so if I make it again, I think I'll stick with the original grain volumes scaled to OG on my system. I also went with .75oz of Hellertauer hops for a 10G batch and threw the rest of the ounce in at flame out, and overall didn't regret that decision.

My sour mash was augmented with some Wyeast Lacto, Co2 additions and plastic wrap over the mash, which I think helped contribute to a pretty clean sour and no "vomit and death" smell from the mash. (It sure ain't chocolate chip cookies, though!) I didn't quite plan out my brew days well enough and got probably close to 60 hour sour mash, instead of a true three days (72 hours). The sour profile is decidedly present, but not as strong as I had hoped I would get...so I would do 72 hours straight up next time. That said, if you're not a fan of super-sours, the 60 hour mash is fairly pleasant. I didn't bother testing for pH, just kind of went off taste of the mash.

I split a 10 gallon batch into two flavorings, a peach and a blackberry. I added just over 2 ounces of peach flavoring, increasing it slightly from the original recipe to get a better peach punch. As for the blackberry, since it's a stronger flavor, I used about 1.5 ounces of blackberry flavoring. Both were Brewcraft, I believe. Fruit was standard per the original recipe. I've only tasted the blackberry so far, and it's just about right...plus, it gives a nice pleasant purple tone to the beer. I'm really looking forward to the peach version when it comes up.

I was all concerned with getting a good fermentation that I went a little overkill on the yeast starters. Note to self...even a 3.2% beer will explode when given enough yeast. A starter helps, but you don't need to go overboard with a 2L starter, for sure, unless you really like to see yeast fireworks. This ain't no lager! But, I did have fermentation within about 8 hours and an overflow on day 2...so that's good?

Overall, it's a pretty tasty beer...certainly not the best within the style I've tasted, but decidedly above mediocre. Let's just say I'd brew it again, but I'm not firing up the brew gear to make another batch after the first few pints. :) Thanks for the recipe!

Blackberry_BWeisse.jpg
 
Nice recipe, I think I might have to give this one a shot but I have a couple questions. First, during the sour mash I thought I might try to inject CO2 through the spigot of my mash tun in order to purge O2 up and out of the mash. I was thinking of getting a tube to run from the beer line of an empty keg to the spigot of the tun and hopefully shoot some CO2 thru the keg and into the tun? Thoughts?
Second, I was thinking of adding about a pound or so of acidulated malt after the initial 60 min mash in order to help bring the pH down a bit more. Would that negatively affect the lacto in any way? I was going to use wyeast lacto to sour.
Also, revco noted that the beer was a bit dry, did anybody who stuck with the original grain bill feel this way? Should I try adding some dextrin or mashing higher?

This will be my first sour brew, thanks for the info!
 
I think Co2, however you add it to your mash tun, is beneficial. I didn't have the "vomit and death" smells that the OP indicated, and others have correlated the same. It doesn't smell amazing, but it's not intolerable like I assume vomit and death is. I also used plastic wrap, after purging with Co2, to cover the sour mash and blasted a wee bit more Co2 in just for good measure each time I disturbed the mash for sampling and such.

I don't think I said it was dry (it's semi-dry with a good touch of sweet), but rather that a lower grain bill scaled to fit the berlinner weisse style turns out a bit "thin" in my opinion. That can be good, too, but I think this particular grain bill would benefit from more grain, more sugar and all of that would translate to more body. As I mentioned, when I do it again, I'll be following the OP's recipe more or less and considering it an "imperial" berlinner weisse or maybe a fruited farmhouse ale. I think it's OK in this case to resist the urge to correct the recipe into style.
 
The beer is already well above style, I believe normal is closer to 2-3%. I am greatly enjoying mine on the peaches, the "clean" version I did with no fruit, not as much, but both are improving over a few weeks. I am adjusting my next batch this week with a touch more wheat malt (4.5lbs total) To make up for some slight inefficiencies in my system/techniques. Id be interested to know how the acid malt affects things, as I'm not 100% sold on the sour this gives. My problem is also that I don't have any C02 to purge with, so my results will vary. I'm also not going to let the acidity drop as much, more in the range of 4 before I kill it.

I am brewing it again this week, intending to split half onto Mangos and half on raspberry. Really like this as a base recipe for a fruited sour.
 
Ok good deal. Revco, how did you purge the mash? Through the top underneath the plastic wrap?
Christyle, I like the idea of trying different fruits too. Peach is a very delicate flavor and I think something like raspberries would add to the perceived tartness.
I think I'll leave the grain bill alone and do a thick mash , ~1qt/lb so I can add a small bit of boiling water during souring to keep the temp up. I read that the bad bugs die at 112F but I'm sure it will be hard to keep the temp in that range for 2-3 days.
Also have to weigh the pros and cons between having that O2 exposure during the souring to add boiling water vs having your temp drop too low and not getting sour enough or getting other bugs and off flavors.
I think I'm going to try keeping the mash in my laundry room with the hot water heater and see if that helps. Maybe outside? It's pretty hot in FL right now.
 
I would suggest against adding the water, but that's me. The few people I talked to about the sour mash said low temps is the lesser of two evils compared to oxygen exposure. With mine in a 10Gal cooler tun, I dropped about 20 deg a day, maybe, over the 3 days. I wrapped it in a blanket, and my lid is filled with foam.
 
Ok, I'll heed your advice then. I have a 5gal cooler and it barely drops 1 deg F during a 60 min mash. Any advice against leaving it outside during the day? It's topping out at 92F this weekend
 
I just used my regulator with a valve and an open hose to purge the mash tun, straight through the top, before and (briefly) after laying the saran wrap. Co2 is heavier than O2, so it'll generally sink. When I "re-purged" after disturbance/sampling (probably completely unnecessary), I just shot a second or so back in to be sure I didn't introduce O2 back in.

I did a somewhat thin mash and added water to keep it above 90, and I'd suggest on your first run with a sour mash you do this. Reason being, we can't tell you how fast your temps will drop, so it's better to be prepared to maintain temps if you need to the first go-round. It might be you find you don't need to adjust temps, I had to adjust every 24 hours. If you're able to purge with CO2, there's little concern there.

Edit: Keeping it outside should be fine, I would probably bring it in at night, though. I live in Montana, though, we have 40-60+ degree temp diffs between night and day much of the time.
 
I wish I had the means to C02 purge, it would make for a much more stable operation. If you have the means to purge, revco's method sounds spot on, it's how I would do it.
 
I'm about to start my mash and was wondering if I should skip adding any Camden tablets to my tap water as I usually do. I did t want to interfere with the lacto in any way
 
I'm about to start my mash and was wondering if I should skip adding any Camden tablets to my tap water as I usually do. I did t want to interfere with the lacto in any way


I've always added campden to my water with all of my beers, including this one. If your water has chloramine it could really cause some off flavors. Either way, the campden volatilizes quickly. If you don't have chloramines, just filter it to get rid of chlorine.
 
Here's my sour mash. I just completed the saccharification rest and added 11oz of acid malt. Gina let that sit while it cools and hit it with some CO2, lacto and wrap it up. Not sure if you can see the bubbles from the CO2, but I tried to get an action pic. Anyway, as far as the Campden goes I don't think we have chloramines in Orlando but definitely chlorine. I didn't add much and went ahead and boiled my strike water for 5 min for the hell of it.

image.jpg
 
This recipe looks great! I've never attempted a sour mash technique such as what is outline in the OP, but I like the idea of not having to use separate equipment devoted specifically to souring.

I have 2 questions:

After draining the mash tun, was it a pain to clean/sanitize especially with something that could be/smell kinda less than pleasing? I once accidentally left my spent grains in my tun for a few days, and the smell was gross!

Also, has anyone tried this with success with raspberries? And if so, how many pounds?

Thanks! Looking forward to brewing this!
 
This recipe looks great! I've never attempted a sour mash technique such as what is outline in the OP, but I like the idea of not having to use separate equipment devoted specifically to souring.

I have 2 questions:

After draining the mash tun, was it a pain to clean/sanitize especially with something that could be/smell kinda less than pleasing? I once accidentally left my spent grains in my tun for a few days, and the smell was gross!

Also, has anyone tried this with success with raspberries? And if so, how many pounds?

Thanks! Looking forward to brewing this!

I haven't had any issue cleaning or sanitizing, and it matters less in this case because you end up boiling anything out of it afterwards. I also clean my tun while the batch is boiling. If you leave your grain, that's basically what the sour mash is, except you're allowing oxygen exposure to the spent grain, which can give slightly more nasty smells I gather.

I have a batch going now I'm about to split onto mangos and raspberries, with flavoring added as well. I'll let you know how it goes, but I think it will be great. I've had great feedback from my peaches version.

Don't let the sour mash scare you, it's really easy and a great way to make a quick sour. I'm working on perfecting my technique and get a cleaner taste though, I fear the lack of C02 purge is causing some of it, and maybe slightly less time in the tun would help. I've been spiking mine with grain, and may try cultured bacteria next time.
 
Excellent, Christyle. Thanks for the great information! I, too, wonder about the CO2 purge. I don't keg (yet) and really don't know how to purge the dead space in the tun, but figure it can't be too hard to do.

I think this would be awesome to do on so many different kinds of fruit, and look forward to brewing this, soon!
 
Without a C02 tank/regulator, you can't really purge. When the means are available, I would just put the outlet near the surface of the mash water and turn it on for a bit, with the time depending on flowrate. Being heavier, it should settle to the bottom and displace the oxygen as it fills. Unsure if there are benefits to the bubbling technique others have mentioned, but I don't see how it could hurt if you have the means to keep it from coming back into the regulator.
 
For mine, I've used a large mash to provide more mass to hold higher temps longer so I think I mash with 5 gallons, sparge 2.5. I put 180 deg in my cooler, drain my mash tun, then dump in the sparge, at around 170 or so by then. It will depend on your system and capacities I think.
 
Planning to do this recipe tomorrow. Two more quick questions for those that have brewed it.

Regarding the peaches, do they need to be washed/sanitized in any way prior to adding to the secondary? Also, I plan to bottle and carbonate at 2.7 vols. Do I need to adjust in any way due to any additional sugars put off by the peaches? Thanks!
 
The 3 methods i've heard for adding fruit are:

1. Heat and hold at 170 or so for 10 minutes to pasteurize and then cool and add
2. Mix with vodka/alcohol of some sort to sanitize and add
3. Freeze and add them, freezing is said to break cell walls and make the sugars easier to get at

Others say to just add it no matter what because the alcohol level will prevent most bacteria growth, but I'd rather do the latter. I buy frozen peaches, and pull them out, slice them frozen and toss them in, then rack on top.

For bottling/kegging, I secondary and then transfer to a third vessel to clear the beer up before bottling. Are you planning to secondary with fruit in the keg? The amount of time you secondary should allow the yeast to eat up any sugars added by the fruit. If you secondary for a decent amount of time, the yeast should be clearing up the sugars. I know lots of people use gelatin for kegging, don't they?
 
Great Thread. Just to add. If you have problems with the vomit smell, another way to help stop a lot of the enterobacter bacteria(which causes the bad smell) is to drop the PH at the beginning of the sour mash to 4.4-4.5. The lower PH will be enough to inhibit a lot of the enterobacter, but will allow the Lacto to do what it needs to do. You can lower the PH by adding lactic acid.
 
I've been considering acid malt as well, what are your thoughts? Will that help with the PH, and if so, will it affect the flavor profile much? I'm not sure how much you would need, I've never used it.
 
Christyle - thanks for the great tips on adding fruit! I was leaning towards freezing then thawing to break down cell walls. Thanks again!!
 
I agree with dropping the pH with acid malt or lactic acid. Very good technique that I've done as well.

For fruit - if I get it fresh I freeze and thaw it and add it to secondary. I usually rinse it first and then cut them in to 4-6 chunks and toss in to a freezer bag and freeze til I'm ready to use.

Glad to hear everyone is digging the recipe and people are brewing it. Cheers and enjoy!
 
Transferred my second batch onto raspberries and mangos as well as flavorings for each. I used extract for the peach, these were brewcraft flavorings I grabbed at the LHBS, calling for 4oz per 5 gallons, so I used 2oz. Pretty excited for both of them. They had some frozen mexican mango puree that I decided to grab instead of the diced, but I could only find 2lbs, so the third was diced mangos. All fruits added were frozen, and put in frozen.

I made a few little mistakes on this one, so we'll see how it goes. I forgot to reserve some grain to spike the mash, so I used the crumbs that were left and some whole oats (like, oatmeal oats) because I figured it was as close as I had. Surprisingly, the flavor profile is stronger, and a little cleaner I think.

Looking forward to trying again with the acid malt technique, as I don't have C02 for purging.

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Wow - that looks great! My brew day got pushed back to tonight because I foolishly thought I had enough propane in my tank, and failed to fill my backup tank as well! Doh!
 
Thanks! I'm looking forward to it, my peach is drinking great.

Also as an fyi, I pitched one pack of us-05 and got down to 1.009 in like 5 days. I was worried because I didn't grab 2 packs.
 
I have had a vomit smell batch before but pitching some Brett B and letting it roll for a few months was awesome. Brett ate those stinkers and turned them into tropical fruit. I also added oak chips soaked in some white wine. It is still aging but the vomit smell is now gone. I think I will sample it again soon and blend with fruit (whatever fruit is prominent in the aroma/taste). Leaning toward guava right now.
 
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