sanity-check my stout recipe?

I haven't brewed a big stout yet, so I came up with this, based on a recipe I found for a Bell's Expedition stout clone:

Batch size: 5.5 gal

16.0 lb American 2-Row 75.3%
1.0 lb Roasted Barley 4.7%
1.5 lb Flaked Barley 7.1%
0.75 lb Belgian Biscuit 3.5%
1.0 lb English Brown Malt 4.7%
0.5 lb Belgian Aromatic 2.4%
0.5 lb English Black Roast 2.4%
1.5 oz Eroica(12.0%) 60 min
1.5 oz Fuggle(4.8%) 20 min

WLP002 English Ale yeast

OG: 1.099
FG: 1.025
31 SRM
9.9% ABV
75 IBUs


Anything look glaringly wrong there?

If my presumption that this is supposed to be an Imperial Stout is correct, I think you need to both simplify the grist and increase the roasted malts a bit.

While RIS generally has a fairly complex grist, it's easy to go overboard. Some of the best examples of the style have relatively simple grists: Pale, Crystal, Chocolate and Black Patent malts, and a heapin' helpin' of Roasted Barley.

That's why I like a broad spectrum of roasted flavors in RIS, from Chocolate, Black Patent and Roasted Barley. The emphasis, if any, should be on the Roasted Barley. So I'd add some Chocolate Malt in there, in equal amounts to the Roasted Barley.

Inclusion of both Biscuit and Aromatic is overkill. I'd delete the Aromatic. Hell, I'd lose the Biscuit, too. This is a difficult-enough beer to balance without accentuating the malt-hammer.

I'd also delete the flaked barley. There should be enough dextrins left in the beer to make good mouthfeel, and you don't need it for foam retention in this grist.

I love the idea of Brown Malt! That'll add a nicely different component to the flavor spectrum. In fact, using that instead of Chocolate Malt might be a very interesting idea indeed.

Make sure you aerate the hell out of the wort and pitch enough yeast. Attenuation can be a right ***** with these grists.

Good luck!

Bob

Thanks for the comments!

Yes, I was aiming for an imperial stout.

With your recommendations, that leaves me with:

Batch size: 5.5 gal

17.5 lb American 2-Row 83.3%
1.0 lb Roasted Barley 4.8%
1.0 lb Chocolate Malt 4.8%
1.0 lb English Brown Malt 4.8%
0.5 lb English Black Roast 2.4%
1.5 oz Eroica(12.0%) 60 min
1.5 oz Fuggle(4.8%) 20 min

WLP002 English Ale yeast

OG: 1.098
FG: 1.025
37 SRM
9.8% ABV
75 IBUs

Would you sub out the chocolate malt entirely for brown malt, or leave as-is? Honestly it wasn't an original idea of mine; I put the brown malt in there because it was in the recipe on which I based this one.

What do you think about Eroica for bittering? I'm thinking any high-alpha hops are probably appropriate, since they're a 60 minute addition.

I like it as-is. At what temperature did you intend to mash?

Eroica is as good a bittering variety as any high-alpha variety. In fact, it'll blend pretty well with the Fuggles. Eroica is pretty pungent.

Bob

I was thinking I'd mash at 154F.

I'm still working on my recipe formulation skills (working hard, too....) and I'd defer to Bob any normal day, but it seems to me that this will turn out really roasty and sharp without at least a touch of caramel-type malt in there. I don't think Brown Malt fills that role, nor will the chocolate malt, so you have a ton of roasty and, at best, bittersweet malts and nothing to leave any sweetness there......

then again, if you'll permit me to play the other side for a second, maybe the fact that this is a higher gravity imperial, and that you are using a strain of yeast that will leave a little residual sweetness is enough. Maybe once this is properly aged, those bitter roast notes will have rounded themselves down and this will have aged into a fine strong stout.....

I guess if I were to add any caramel malt, it would be a small amount....I might also add back a 1/2 lb of that biscuit to add a touch of flavor depth.

Finally, I'll just throw out one last idea - Oats (and wheat, for that matter) are another fine way to soften a dark roasty brew......my best stout and porter have had oats and wheat, respectively. and in a large grain bill like this, a pound of oats would not drastically change the outcome but would just add a little silk, IMHO.

Snailsongs is right that a touch of medium crystal will round out the grist. I leave the decision entirely up to you.

Mashing at 154 is methinks a bit high. I'm afraid you might end up with underattenuated motor oil.

I think Snailsongs's second paragraph describes nicely what I think will happen. Give it enough time aging - and you should - and everything will come together nicely. Drink it young and it'll be profoundly roasty and unpleasantly bitter.

Again, I don't think you need oats or wheat or flaked barley, and I've already made my point about Biscuit.

But it's your beer! Don't take my recommendations as commandments.

Bob

Thanks again, guys. I will ponder the latest suggestions for a while and figure what I want to do.

I'll post an updated recipe for a final check if I decide to change anything.

With that big of grain bill I'd mash at 149-150 for 75 mins and pitch 2 pack s-04 or 05.
That's just me though.

Okay, I think I'm going with this (1 pound of crystal 80 added, 2-row pale adjusted down .5 pound):

Batch size: 5.5 gal

17.0 lb American 2-Row 79.1%
1.0 lb Caramel Malt 80L 4.7%
1.0 lb Roasted Barley 4.7%
1.0 lb Chocolate Malt 4.7%
1.0 lb English Brown Malt 4.7%
0.5 lb English Black Roast 2.3%
1.5 oz Eroica(12.0%) 60 min
1.5 oz Fuggle(4.8%) 20 min

WLP002 English Ale yeast

OG: 1.100
FG: 1.025
38 SRM
10.0% ABV
75 IBUs

Would a mash temp of 152 be appropriate, or even 150?

I know what the effect of a lower mash temp will be, but I don't know how much difference 2 degrees or 4 degrees will make. I guess that comes with experience...

If it lacks for smoothness, I'll consider some oats next time.

[Edit: Thanks for that, Ryno; I was typing while you were replying.]

I would'nt be afraid of 149-150, it will have plenty of malt charactor. I used to feel uncomfortable mashing with lower temps. Now its all good! Make a big starter or hydrate 2 packs of S-04 which would be a good sub for your English ale liquid yeast. The S-04 is also slightly higher attenuating which will help it from being too sweet and it should have a similiar charactor to the wlp002. Make sure to use a blow off tube.

2 degrees not such a HUGE difference. 4 degrees could be the difference between cloying and enjoyable....With that high of a gravity to start, mashing at 150 is not going to give you an overattenuated beer, 'specially not with WLP002....it will probably end up just right.

My first high gravity stout was almost undrinkable because it was underattenuated....you don't want that. I vote 149-150 too.

Add me to that list. Mash it low and slow!

Bob

Okay, 149-150 it is.

I'll give it a shot when I get all the stuff together.

I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Thanks again for the help.

quick question if i may as it relates to this thread.

when you say "properly aged" for a beer like this (imperial stout, and i'm assuming most 'big beers') how long do you mean???

months or are we talking years?

gator

I will just chime in briefly. What do you have your efficiency set at? You're going to come quite a bit short of your usual range with such a big beer, unless you want to boil for 4-5 hours. I'm guessing you've factored this in and if you hit a couple points lower on your SG I don't think it will suddenly have the hops out of balance. Sounds like a fun beer! Be patient.

I had efficiency set at 75% in BeerTools, but at 70 or even high 60s, the IBUs won't be crazy. If my boil gravity is a lot lower than expected, I guess I'll just make it up with DME.

All else being equal except the big grain bill, how much efficiency do you think will be lost?

And one more question: I have "roasted barley" and "English black roast" in there. My understanding is that these are both just roasted barley, each roasted to a different degree. Is that correct?

gator said:

quick question if i may as it relates to this thread.

when you say "properly aged" for a beer like this (imperial stout, and i'm assuming most 'big beers') how long do you mean???

months or are we talking years?

Click to expand...

Like so many things in brewing, the answer is "it depends".

Some come into their own relatively quickly - in a matter of weeks. Others take months. In fact, now is a good time to consider brewing Imperial Stout for drinking at the Holidays! Even if it's drinkable at six weeks, it'll be even better at six months.

Bob

THANKS Bob, and you pretty much answered another question I have been having...a holiday brew.

I like big beers and this thread caught my eye as I have wanted to brew an Imperial stout for a couple of reasons that I'll explain when i show my recipe, as i don't want to further take away from this thread.

nice looking recipe and thanks for the inspiration in doing this....gator

I thought I had the inital recipe I wanted to try, nailed down.

But I just picked up a 4-pack of Old Rasputin RIS and had two of them. I like it, but it's not what I want to try to brew. I'm looking for something a little sweeter and less harsh. Like Bell's Expedition stout, ideally.

Given that, what do you think about the recipe above?