oxygen permeable bucket in water

I have been thinking about the issue of oxygen permeability of a bucket when fermenting a flanders in a bucket. By submerging the bucket in water couldnt you somewhat control the amount oxygen exposure?

I had the same thought. Also thought about wrapping the outside of the bucket in foil or saran or both.

At the end of the day, I wonder if the O2 dissolved in the H20, would simply pass through the plastic wall too, just as if it were in the air.

I wonder how concentrated in 02 is in H20 left out in a natural state? Same as air, significantly less? I should have paid more attention in chemistry class...

Go with glass and you won't have to worry about this issue.

I want some air thats why I'm looking at a bucket.

I was thinking of using pre boiled water to be sure that as little air as possible remained in the water.

it will slow the transfer of O2 but not stop it, even if you boil/degas the water, oxygen will slow diffuse back into the water and will transfer across the bucket

the limiting step will probably be the oxygen diffusing into the water, and this will definately help the gradient of O2 between the wort and the outside of the bucket, but it could also speed up the transfer across the walls, I doubt the sides are as much an issue though as the seal around the lid and thats something I wouldnt imagine you would want to cover with water

Isn't some exposure to O2 a good thing for a flanders? I thought a carboy was undesirable because it doesn't let enough in.

Matadero Creek Brewery said:

Many commercial sour ales are not aged in wood (including Lambics). Nobody likes to talk about this. The good news is that the standard, food-grade HDPE bucket is the second best fermenter for sour al

Click to expand...

http://www2.parc.com/emdl/members/apte/flemishredale.shtml

RDWHAHB said:

Isn't some exposure to O2 a good thing for a flanders? I thought a carboy was undesirable because it doesn't let enough in.

Click to expand...

some o2

.............

My link indicates that HDPE bucket give about the right amount. Are you impying it is too much?

Not calling you out. I have know idea if that guy knows his stuff. Just currious b/c I am interested in doing a flanders. I was going to look into getting a cheap bucket because of this (all I have is glass & better bottles).

Regards, Jeff

From reading "Wild Brews" it is my understanding that if you do use a HDPE bucket you will get the O2 required for Flanders Reds and Lambics, however the rate of exposure will cause a quickly maturing beer that may not have the complexity desired.

Personally, when I have my first go at a Flanders I'll be trying the carboy trick with a wooden peg in the top as linked in RDWHAHB's post.

On closer look it seems that the O2 permeability is good (fairly similar to wood), however the large surface area to volume ratio is too large, causing too much O2 in for the batch size. Given that, I'm not sure why he states HDPE buckets are the second best.

O2 permeability of a barrel is only double that of a glass carboy with a peg. An HDPE bucket is about 10x that of a barrel.

I leave my Flanders in plastic for 100 days, then rack to a keg and pitch another batch on the cake. Don't have an old enough beer to say how well this pipeline will work out but at 100 days it tastes pretty dang good.

Sacch, do you continually re-use the same cake of bugs?

I have one that's gone through 3 generations now. First a Flanders Red wort recipe, followed by an English brown and finally a RIS. I'm curious to see how these all turn out with a bunch of bugs & some oak over a year or 2.

Yeah the second pitch is definitely maturing faster than the first. Though I am not sure what will happen with subsequent pitches. I have heard many tell tales of the second and subsequent pitches being much more sour which is what I want in any case. In about 6-9 months we will see how well it worked out.

wscott823 said:

From reading "Wild Brews" it is my understanding that if you do use a HDPE bucket you will get the O2 required for Flanders Reds and Lambics, however the rate of exposure will cause a quickly maturing beer that may not have the complexity desired.

Personally, when I have my first go at a Flanders I'll be trying the carboy trick with a wooden peg in the top as linked in RDWHAHB's post.

Click to expand...

This is what I have heard also, that is why I'm thinking about trying the bucket submerged.

I need to grab a copy of "Wild Brews". Sounds like a good resource.

RDWHAHB said:

I need to grab a copy of "Wild Brews". Sounds like a good resource.

Click to expand...

The book is a must own for any brewer interested in sours :rockin:

it's not all that terrible to get extra O2 in certain situations. as a few have pointed out it can help accelerate and add extra souring to a sour brew that might otherwise take much longer and result in a much less sour flavor. i'm trying a 100% brett in a bucket right now since i'm looking for extra O2 to help expedite the souring process. it's an experiment since all my other sours have been in glass. we'll see how it goes, but the extra permeability might not necessarily be a terrible thing given certain circumstances. if you're storing your sour for long periods of time in a plastic bucket i think over the long run you'll introduce way too much O2, though. gotta draw that fine line

A bucket in water would still let alot of O2 in!
Oxygen Permeability cc-mm/m2-day, 23C of WATER is 34400
On the other hand wood oak is 57

I would try out the wooden peg next. Although my current batch is in a glass carboy and in my opinion has a perfect amount of sour balance using wlp655

on the subject, based on experience the DO of water is usually half the concentration in the atmosphere in ambient conditions. envl sci:rockin: after googling it looks as though it dependent on the temerature so high temps = less DO. this also makes sense if you fish since high DO = faster metabolism. here you are:
http://www.kywater.org/ww/ramp/rmdo2.htm

Table IV
Solubility Of Oxygen in Fresh Water (100% Saturation)

Temperature
oC
PPM (mg/L)
Dissolved Oxygen
Temperature

oC PPM (mg/L)
Dissolved Oxygen

0 14.6 23 8.7
1 14.2 24 8.5
2 13.9 25 8.4
3 13.5 26 8.2
4 13.2 27 8.1
5 12.8 28 7.9
6 12.5 29 7.8
7 12.2 30 7.7
8 11.9 31 7.5
9 11.6 32 7.4
10 11.3 33 7.3
11 11.1 34 7.2
12 10.8 35 7.1
13 10.6 36 7.0
14 10.4 37 6.8
15 10.2 38 6.7
16 9.9 39 6.6
17 9.7 40 6.5
18 9.5 41 6.4
19 9.3 42 6.3
20 9.2 43 6.2
21 9.0 44 6.1
22 8.8 45 6.0

to answer the question, you can't exactly control the amount of O2 you introduce, but the water will keep some of the O2 out of the bucket, just not all.

Could you wrap the bucket with tinfoil?
That should limit gas exchange significantly.

I don't think wrapping it in Foil would do much. Air gets behind it no problem, and oxygen would diffuse at nearly the same rate. Maybe if you glued foil or some O2 inpermeable barrier to the bucket. There gets to be a point where you should just buy a better bottle or glass carboy.

I agree with RDWHAHB tin foil would do essentially nothing, as gas will diffuse anywhere it wants

I still think the sides of the bucket are a lesser issue than the seal around the lid, Id bet thats where most all of the o2 gets into the bucket