Great before carbonating, bad after

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Wesjmc

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I have been having this issue for a while now. On bottling day I taste my beer and it is fantastic. A week into bottle conditioning, I taste it again because I taste it all through the process, and it's still great (but flat of course). At 2 weeks into bottle conditioning I taste it and the flavor has DRASTICALLY changed. This change always happens at the 2-3 week mark. After that it stays constant, no better, no worse with extended aging. The weird thing is it ONLY happens with my hoppy pale beers. My porters taste great on bottling day and even better after a month.

My first thought was oxidation. So I spent a few hundred dollars on a fridge/kegging setup. I brewed a Mission St Pale Ale clone from the CYBI show. It tasted spot on cloned on kegging day. I flushed all the air out of the keg with C02 then slowly transferred without any splashing. Again, flat but tasty after a week, one of the best pale ales I've ever had. The dry hop aroma filled the air. After 2 weeks the carbonation was getting there, but the hop aroma and flavor were virtually non existent, and the other flavors tasted watered down. It tasted the opposite of "clean," not really musty, just a bit dirty, muddled, and thin.

My second thought was oxidation. So I went with 100% RO water (9 gallons) with 2 tsp CaCl and 2 tsp Gypsum. Same exact bland off flavor.

My third thought was sanitation. So I replaced all my hoses. Soaked EVERYTHING in PBW for a few hours. Rinsed everything obsessively and soaked everything in Star San for an hour or so. No improvement.

This is driving me crazy. Pale ales and IPAs are my favorite styles to drink, and after about 40 extract brews and 10 all-grain, I've yet to brew but one or two that were enjoyable. Every single porter, stout, belgian, or wheat beer I've made has been great though. Please help me figure this out!!!
 
Oxidation usually occurs at bottling/kegging, when the beer is exposed to too much oxygen and it develops that wet cardboard mung flavor after a few weeks. I don't think that's your problem as you seem to be careful on your racking from primary to keg.

I think your issue is your hop additions. The secret to big hops aroma and flavor in your beer is by doing a lot of late addition hops at flameout/whirlpool, passing your beer through a hops rocket/randalizer prior to bottling, or just doing a nice big dry hop on your beer.

The volatile oils that are essential for that nice hops aroma and flavor tend to boil off and/or fade fast from your IPA's if you don't use enough, or add them too soon in the boil or don't use enough late hops additions.

Check out what Jamil Zanischeff has to say on the subject here: http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.php
 
I've had the same experience - especially the 'missing hops' problem. I don't know what causes it, but it improved when I addressed my water. I got a water report, a copy of EZ-Water, and started adjusting my water chemistry. It made a big difference.
 
Thanks for the help guys!

b-boy, I've gotten a water report, and have done similar to you with EZ-water/Beersmith + salt additions. I was blending my water with RO water up until the last couple batches. For this APA I did pure RO water with 2 tsp each of CaCl and Gypsum. The previous IPA I did with pure RO water and 1 tsp CaCl and 3 tsp gypsum to accentuate the hops, to no avail. For now, I'm going to stick to RO water to help control the variables.

aiptasia, that article was very interesting and informative. I feel like I've been doing basically what they're suggesting (just not to such an extreme degree). Here is my latest recipe:

8# 2-row
1.5# munich
0.5# cara-pils

0.12 oz chinook - 90 min
0.25 oz chinook - 30 min
1 oz cascade - 0 min (45 min whirlpool/steep)
0.5 oz centennial - 0 min (45 min whirlpool/steep)
1 oz cascade - dry hop
0.5 oz centennial - dry hop
0.25 oz chinook - dry hop

I was skeptical of such a long whirlpool/steep, but the guys at the BN got this info directly from Matt Brynildson of Firestone Walker. Maybe I'll do a modification of this recipe with no whirlpool/steep and adjust the late hop additions for my desired IBU.

I know hop flavor/aroma are the first to fade, I'm just puzzled at how amazing my APAs/IPAs have tasted right up to the point of carbonation.
 
What's your dry hop process? My first suggestion based on looking at the recipe would be more dry hops, and maybe more whirlpool hops as well.

FWIW I transfer into my serving keg after ~3-6 weeks in primary, and add my dry hops to the keg. The keg then gets purged and sealed, and allowed to stay at fermentation temps for 7-10 days. Then I put the keg in the keezer and carbonate and serve it. The hops stay in the keg until it's empty. One of the reasons I started dry hopping in the sealed keg was that the fermenter always smelled wonderfully hoppy during the dry hop process before, which made me think I was losing a lot of the aroma. For a lot of hop aroma and flavor, I use 3-6 oz of dry hops for each 5 gal keg.
 
I typically ferment for a week in primary. Then transfer to secondary on the dry hops and let that sit for 1-2 weeks then bottle/keg. This time I took the Tasty McDole approach of dry hopping in the primary right at the tail end of fermentation (the very tail end). His reason is to fight oxidation at every step. Essentially if you dry hop while the yeast is still getting that last couple gravity points it will also scrub out the oxygen introduced by dumping in the dry hops. The pro is that almost no oxidation occurs. The con is you need to use more dry hops since some of the volatile hop compounds will get pulled out by the yeast.

From all these helpful posts I'm thinking I just need to add more late/dry hops. The one frustration that remains is that the beer not only loses hop flavor/aroma, but just doesn't taste very clean at all. They have an off flavor i simply cant put into words aside from saying "not clean." It may be that my hoppy beers are built around very simple malt bills to accentuate the hops. Take away the hoppyness and its a pretty naked beer with nothing for the slightest off flavors to hide behind. Maybe this is why all my other beers (especially dark beers) taste fantastic.
 
I typically ferment for a week in primary. Then transfer to secondary on the dry hops and let that sit for 1-2 weeks then bottle/keg. This time I took the Tasty McDole approach of dry hopping in the primary right at the tail end of fermentation (the very tail end). His reason is to fight oxidation at every step. Essentially if you dry hop while the yeast is still getting that last couple gravity points it will also scrub out the oxygen introduced by dumping in the dry hops. The pro is that almost no oxidation occurs. The con is you need to use more dry hops since some of the volatile hop compounds will get pulled out by the yeast.

From all these helpful posts I'm thinking I just need to add more late/dry hops. The one frustration that remains is that the beer not only loses hop flavor/aroma, but just doesn't taste very clean at all. They have an off flavor i simply cant put into words aside from saying "not clean." It may be that my hoppy beers are built around very simple malt bills to accentuate the hops. Take away the hoppyness and its a pretty naked beer with nothing for the slightest off flavors to hide behind. Maybe this is why all my other beers (especially dark beers) taste fantastic.

If it's only your lighter beers, that makes me think it could be a water issue. Living in Tucson, I know first hand how drastically the water profile varies from month to month here. The total hardness at the city well closest to my house ranges from ~60ppb to nearly 300ppb depending on when you test it. What water report are you using? The annual average, or most recent, or did you send a sample in to be tested?
 
I called our city water department and the guy emailed me a spreadsheet of the mineral content from monthly readings from the nearest water source to my house, but like I said, I'm sick of hassling with that and have been using RO water with CaCl and Gypsum.

Another strange thing I forgot to mention is I used WLP002 which should have a 63-70% attenuation. I got 84% attenuation! OG=1.051 and FG=1.008. I knew I was going to get good attenuation as I made a 2L starter and I'm still figuring out my mash system. So I mashed low at 43-45F for 60min then raised it to the low 50s for 15min then mashed out at 68F and batch sparged.

Could this low mash temp really get me 85% efficiency out of WLP002 or does there have to be some wild yeast at work? Man, this is frustrating. I cleaned/sanitized obsessively, but I guess I could have missed something.
 
I want to bump this thread as I've had the same issue with several batches now and haven't identified the issue.

Three batches in a row now, the first day of tastings out of the keg are phenomenal. The hop profiles have lots of depth. Just made this Citra Pale Ale and it was so bright with loads of tropical notes and aroma. One week later, and the hop profile has evolved into a bland, "muddy", bitter taste, robbing all the complexity of flavors and sweetness.

I thought it may have been the water profile, but I used spring water for everything and got the same result. Any other suggestions out there?
 
Are you maybe accidentally overcarbing?

I did this recently to an IPA. Was so aromatic, juicy and hop forward.

I accidentally switched gas lines when moving things around my keezer and put it on 40psi gas for half the day. Backed the pressure down and WHAM, carbonic bite, harsh bitterness, no aroma at all :(

Purged the keg over a few days to off gas it, put it back to 10psi to equalize and server and it was back to being tasty, delicious and aromatic again.
 
Oxidation usually occurs at bottling/kegging, when the beer is exposed to too much oxygen and it develops that wet cardboard mung flavor after a few weeks. I don't think that's your problem as you seem to be careful on your racking from primary to keg.

I think your issue is your hop additions. The secret to big hops aroma and flavor in your beer is by doing a lot of late addition hops at flameout/whirlpool, passing your beer through a hops rocket/randalizer prior to bottling, or just doing a nice big dry hop on your beer.

The volatile oils that are essential for that nice hops aroma and flavor tend to boil off and/or fade fast from your IPA's if you don't use enough, or add them too soon in the boil or don't use enough late hops additions.

Check out what Jamil Zanischeff has to say on the subject here: http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.php

+100 on this. I find my IPAs that I do a sh*t-ton of late whirlpool hopping on usually turn out much more "juicier" hop wise on the taste and nose even when being kegged and bottled for a longer than normal consumption time.

I also use RO or Distilled for my IPAs (with water additions more on the sulfate/calc chlor side).

Hitting the right Mash PH (5.3-5.5) is critical as well for you AG folks. (Mash PH does matter with hop utilization!)

One last thing I have started to try is only using HopShots for FWH'ing. All other hops post hopshot additions are purely flameout/whirlpool additions or dry hops. This makes for a FANTASTIC "Juicy" IPA.
As someone told me once when I was chasing this.."Don't be afraid to use much more than you think when doing flameout/whirlpool hop additions and let them steep in that wort around 180deg for about 20-30mins so all those hop oils get into the wort".

Trust me..it works and my IPAs are off the charts. Mine are not bitter IPAs, just very hoppy, juicy and hazy which is a great thing!

:fro:
 
I want to bump this thread as I've had the same issue with several batches now and haven't identified the issue.

Three batches in a row now, the first day of tastings out of the keg are phenomenal. The hop profiles have lots of depth. Just made this Citra Pale Ale and it was so bright with loads of tropical notes and aroma. One week later, and the hop profile has evolved into a bland, "muddy", bitter taste, robbing all the complexity of flavors and sweetness.

I thought it may have been the water profile, but I used spring water for everything and got the same result. Any other suggestions out there?

If the beer tastes good at the end of fermentation, it is very unlikely that you have a water issue. Hoppy beers are incredibly prone to oxidation (ref page 21 of http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2015_presentations/F1540_Darron_Welch.pdf.) Can you detail your fermenter to keg transfer procedure, and your headspace purging procedure? It takes way more purging than you probably think it does to get the headspace O2 concentration to less than 1 ppm. See the table and charts below:

ppm O2 after purge table.png

ppm O2 after purge chart.png

Brew on :mug:
 
Thank you for the responses! I took a taster of my Citra Pale to my LHBS last night when I went to pick up some ingredients. One of the guys said he didn't taste anything wrong, which is understandable considering he didn't have the pleasure of experiencing the first tastings. The beer is not bad, it's still a drinkable IPA, and if someone were judging it, I can totally understand how they wouldn't identify any problems. It's just drastically different than the first few glasses, as they were exceptional. Difficult to explain again, but you just don't really recognize the characteristics of the hops/flavors. It's just kind of a bitter, muddy beer with no real depth to it. It tastes similar to what happened with a Pliny Clone and even an Irish Red Ale I made. All turned into boring, spicy beers with no depth.

Are you maybe accidentally overcarbing?

This was another guys thought at the LHBS. Said he had similar issues, and it took him a while to figure out when he hits the carb level he wants, he kills the gas to the keg. Then slightly raises it just when he needs to push the beer out, and kills it again. I'd never heard of this before...

For this batch, I set it at 12 psi and left it for about a week. So it seems strange to me it might overcarb. I'd say it's possible that my regulator is old and inaccurate. Maybe I'm pumping more gas in than I think. Not sure what carbonic bite tastes like, but maybe that's what I'm experiencing.

If the beer tastes good at the end of fermentation, it is very unlikely that you have a water issue. Hoppy beers are incredibly prone to oxidation (ref page 21 of http://www.craftbrewersconference.co...rron_Welch.pdf. Can you detail your fermenter to keg transfer procedure, and your headspace purging procedure?

Oxidation is my second thought. People who have tasted it don't consider it to taste like an oxidation problem. Again, it's not a really unpleasant taste these beers develop, just disappointing. But I suppose it's very possible.
1. Cold crash for 24-48 hours.
2. Clean and sanitize keg, keg components, auto-siphon, etc.
3. Siphon from the surface of the liquid and move the siphon down as it drains, staying just below the surface in attempt to not suck up any trub. I feel as if I do my best to keep the tubing down in the bottom of the keg to avoid splashing, but maybe i'm not careful enough.
4. Seal the keg, put ~6 psi on it, purge 5 or 6 times maybe?
5. Set it at 12 psi, forget it.

+100 on this. I find my IPAs that I do a sh*t-ton of late whirlpool hopping on usually turn out much more "juicier" hop wise on the taste and nose even when being kegged and bottled for a longer than normal consumption time.

I agree my IPAs could especially benefit from some more hops, but I'm not sure that's the issue. I am fairly new to brewing and have been following recipes word for word. So it would be surprising to me if hundreds of people thought that specific recipe was excellent when I'm getting the end result. This also leads me to think the first few glasses are what the beer SHOULD taste like, because as I've said, they initially are fantastic. Furthermore, I hop bursted the crap out of this Pale Ale in the last 15 mins, and dry hopped with a few oz, and I experienced the same thing with an Irish Red I made that had very little hops.

Thanks again guys! :mug:
 
...

Oxidation is my second thought. People who have tasted it don't consider it to taste like an oxidation problem. Again, it's not a really unpleasant taste these beers develop, just disappointing. But I suppose it's very possible.
1. Cold crash for 24-48 hours.
2. Clean and sanitize keg, keg components, auto-siphon, etc.
3. Siphon from the surface of the liquid and move the siphon down as it drains, staying just below the surface in attempt to not suck up any trub. I feel as if I do my best to keep the tubing down in the bottom of the keg to avoid splashing, but maybe i'm not careful enough.
4. Seal the keg, put ~6 psi on it, purge 5 or 6 times maybe?
5. Set it at 12 psi, forget it.

...
A number of the IPA aficionados around here (I don't consider myself qualified as an aficionado) have noted similar drop off in hop brightness after a week or two in the keg. Their experience is that if they control O2 during packaging (really getting OCD about it), the hop flavors hold up better over time. Seems that with IPA's, the first sign of oxidation is muted hope flavors, which show up long before the classic oxidation flavors appear.

Your keg purge protocol (5 - 6 cycles @ 6 psi) will leave you with 27,000 to 38,000 ppm of O2 in the headspace. A 5 gal corny with 5 gal of beer has about 0.3 - 0.35 gal of headspace, so the TPO (total packaged O2) contribution from the headspace is:
Headspace TPO Contribution = 0.35 gal * 38,000 ppm / (5 gal + 0.35 gal) = 2500 ppm​
Given a target TPO for IPA's of 0.15 ppm, 2500 ppm is way to much.

You should look into a closed transfer from your fermenter to keg. Fill the keg (lid on) completely (to where ii comes out the PRV - even then there is about 3 fl oz of headspace) with StarSan solution, push the StarSan out with CO2, siphon into the keg thru the beer out post with the PRV latched open, and finally purge the headspace 10 times at 30 psi. This will bring your headspace contribution to TPO down to about 0.03 ppm, leaving an allowance of about 0.120 ppm for dissolved O2 in the fresh beer.

The above seems pretty radical, but those who have tried it swear by it.

Brew on :mug:
 
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