'Mash Out' - Necessary step?

How many of you do a 'mash out' step? I'm still getting to grips with all grain having done just two batches, but in that time I've noticed that the water level starts to fall below the grain bed pretty quickly on my first runnings despite draining it at a nice slow space. I'm a bit worried about encountering a stuck sparge. Will doing a mash out make things a little more fluid?

I typically mash out when I'm brewing. I don't think it is always necessary, but when mashing with wheat or oats I think it is helpful. For most brew days, it probably isn't necessary, but I'm in the habit of doing it.

BTW, it also helps me get my temps back in line before adding sparge water if the mash temp has dropped a few degrees below what I was aiming for..

I've never bothered with a mash out.

I kind of do a mashout - I raise my sparge water to about 190F, which raises the mash to about 168. I find that it improves lautering. However, I don't think it's a necessary step.

A mash out will also stop the enzymes working. So, if you have a malty beer that you don't want to dry out, a mash out will stop them instead of having them still working on the beer during the whole run off. If you want a very dry beer, though, you can do the opposite, no mash out and the enzymes will keep going during runoff.

Me? I do a mash out at 168.

I mash out. It stops the enzymes and the heat allows more sugar to be dissolved in the wort.

I asked Jamil about this in Milwaukee at the NB grand opening and he recommended to always do one.

I do one, especially now that I crush my own grain (which means I get a much finer crush than when I used the mill at my LHBS). I've found that mashing helps with the runoff, higher heat = more fluidity

Doing a mash out step will help with repeatability in your beers. As others have mentioned, it denatures the enzymes and locks-in your wort profile. If it happens to take you a while to lauter one day, the increased lautering time will not effect your wort.

If you batch sparge, I don't think a mashout is necessary. Adding hotter sparge water for the first batch performs the same function without wasting time. Buffman suggested the same procedure.
If you are fly sparging, I think it is a good idea. I'm not sure which you are doing.
You mention you are worried that the water level drops below the top of the grain bed, which would suggest a fly sparge; but you then mention the first runnings which would suggest a batch sparge.

-a.

Sorry ajf, I should have specified, I am indeed batch sparging. The water level dropping below the top of the grain bed has occured in both batches when collecting my first runnings. It just doesn't seem very fluid to me, despite using correct water quantities for my mash in and making sure to stir really well to avoid dough balls.

Though I must say, just two batches in this could well be a case of inexperience and not really knowing my system. I've always managed to reach my desired boil volume not to mention hitting my OG (give or take a point or two) so perhaps it's just worry on my part, but all the books and articles I have read sort of drilled in the fact that you have to keep the grain bed suspended and not let the water level fall below it

If you fly sparge, you do need to keep the water above the grain bed, but when batch sparging, you need to completely drain the first runnings and each batch of sparge water. You cannot do a batch sparge successfully and keep the water level above the grain bed, as that would prevent you from collecting most of the sugars. You also need to stir in the sparge water after each addition, as it is the mechanical action of the stirring that dissolves the sugars.

-a.

Inexperience on my part then! Thanks for clearing that up for me! I always give a long stire when adding my sparge water too. Thanks man

I have a HERMS System in which I "mash out" by doing the following:

1) after mashing I raise the HLT temperature to the sparge temperature, and continue recirculating for 10-15 minutes. This raises the mash temp to the sparge temp.

2) then i drain the first runnings and add my first batch sparge volume.

Works pretty well

If mashing-out is adding 170+ water to the mash before sparging... what's the difference between that and simply fly sparging with 170+? I don't get it.

jlc767 said:

If mashing-out is adding 170+ water to the mash before sparging... what's the difference between that and simply fly sparging with 170+? I don't get it.

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If you're batch sparging, adding hotter sparge water to bring the grain bed to 168 is sort of a mash out. That's because you add the water, and stir it well.

If you're fly sparging, and you sparge with 170+ degree water, it will probably not bring the grain bed up to 168 for a "mash out". The reason is you add it so slow, and drain so slow, that you won't raise the grain bed temperature up that high without a mash out. Try it and see!

When mashing at about 154, batch sparging, about what temp do you need the sparge water to be in order to raise the grain bed to 168? Or does the amount of sparge water make too much difference to give an accurate answer? I have beersmith at home, so I'm sure I can play with that for each brew, but figured I'd see if there is a rule of thumb.


BTW Yoop, that is a great picture in your avatar!

I fly-sparge and usually do one.

Question on why mashing out affects fermentability: The beta amylase affects fermentability the most so if your last mash temp was say, 158* F, then by the end of that rest the beta amylase should be denatured. So why would another 30 minutes or so at 158*F affect fermentability? Especially if you don't mash as long as some other brewers do? That is, say one brewer mashes for 90 minutes and does a mash-out but another brewer only mashes for 45 minutes (no mash-out), then sparges for 30 minutes and heats to a boil (say 15 minutes to reach mash-out temp). In both cases the mash stayed at the last sacc rest temp for ~90 minutes before it was heated to mash-out temp.

SpanishCastleAle said:

I fly-sparge and usually do one.

Question on why mashing out affects fermentability: The beta amylase affects fermentability the most so if your last mash temp was say, 158* F, then by the end of that rest the beta amylase should be denatured. So why would another 30 minutes or so at 158*F affect fermentability? Especially if you don't mash as long as some other brewers do? That is, say one brewer mashes for 90 minutes and does a mash-out but another brewer only mashes for 45 minutes (no mash-out), then sparges for 30 minutes and heats to a boil (say 15 minutes to reach mash-out temp). In both cases the mash stayed at the last sacc rest temp for ~90 minutes before it was heated to mash-out temp.

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True. But the longer mash DOES affect the final wort profile. You can mash at 158 for 20 minutes and get complete conversion in many cases. Mashing the same grain bill at the same temp for 90 minutes doesn't give you the same wort. If you want to preserve the first profile, and you're fly sparging, you'll want to do a mash out. If you don't care, you can go 90 minutes.

pksmitty- what I've find with Beersmith is that it really doesn't give you the calculation for the batch sparge water temp to get to 168. But, if you "cheat" and do it as a profile with a mashout, you can use that mash out temp for your first batch sparge infusion and almost always hit 168 exactly! So, that's what I do when I batch sparge. Does that make sense? For example, I have a recipe ready for tomorrow, and I think I'll batch sparge. I have the Beersmith file set up to do a mash out. On the brewsheet it reads: mash in with 21.00 quarts blah blah blah. The next line after the "hold mash" is to "mash out with 9.8 quarts of water at 203.5 then sparge with 1.78 gallons of water. Well, 9.8 quarts is just about 1/2 of the sparge water. So instead of using it to mash out, I'll drain the MLT and add most of it to the grain for the first sparge addition. That should give me a grain bed temp right around 168, maybe a degree or two under. Then, I can do the second round of sparge water at 168-170 degrees. Let me know if I didn't explain that very well!

pksmitty said:

When mashing at about 154, batch sparging, about what temp do you need the sparge water to be in order to raise the grain bed to 168? Or does the amount of sparge water make too much difference to give an accurate answer? I have beersmith at home, so I'm sure I can play with that for each brew, but figured I'd see if there is a rule of thumb.


BTW Yoop, that is a great picture in your avatar!

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I double batch sparge, so you may need less temp, but I find I need 185-190 degree F water to hit 168-170 grainbed temps with my first sparge, and 170 degF water for the second sparge. For a single batch sparge, I'm guessing you only would need 175-180, but I'd beersmith it.

YooperGrandma said:

pksmitty- what I've find with Beersmith is that it really doesn't give you the calculation for the batch sparge water temp to get to 168. But, if you "cheat" and do it as a profile with a mashout, you can use that mash out temp for your first batch sparge infusion and almost always hit 168 exactly!

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But is there any reason to have the grain bed precisely at 168 when mashing out/batch sparging? It was my understanding that you basically just need to get the grain bed above 168 to stop the enzymatic processes, however I have never seen a need to hold at a specific temperature.

My typical procedure is to mash in a large 10 gallon cylindrical cooler, lauter, then batch sparge in two equal volumes with a stir/10 minute rest/stir/vorlauf/lauter for each. I typically heat the sparge water up to around 190-195 and this usually gets the grain bed in the neighborhood of 175 when I'm sparging.

DrinkNoH2O said:

But is there any reason to have the grain bed precisely at 168 when mashing out/batch sparging? It was my understanding that you basically just need to get the grain bed above 168 to stop the enzymatic processes, however I have never seen a need to hold at a specific temperature.

My typical procedure is to mash in a large 10 gallon cylindrical cooler, lauter, then batch sparge in two equal volumes with a stir/10 minute rest/stir/vorlauf/lauter for each. I typically heat the sparge water up to around 190-195 and this usually gets the grain bed in the neighborhood of 175 when I'm sparging.

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No, you definitely don't have to keep it at precisely 168! But it's the "sweet spot". You denature the enzymes, preserving the wort profile, encourage lower wort viscosity for lautering, and you avoid any risk of a too-high temperature sparge that is a concern when you go over 170 in the grain bed.

In my opinion, 175 is too hot. I don't go over 170.

I personally don't mash-out. Seems like a waste of time and uses up too much sparge water; I should note that I'm a batch sparger. I put the first runnings on flame as soon as it comes out, so that will stop the enzymes. Then the addition of the sparge water will stop any enzymatic activity in the mash.

YooperGrandma said:

No, you definitely don't have to keep it at precisely 168! But it's the "sweet spot". You denature the enzymes, preserving the wort profile, encourage lower wort viscosity for lautering, and you avoid any risk of a too-high temperature sparge that is a concern when you go over 170 in the grain bed.

In my opinion, 175 is too hot. I don't go over 170.

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Sounds like I may need to do a little more reading. I wasn't aware of any risk of a (reasonably) too high temperature sparge (i.e. 175). What are some of the ill effects?

I don't do one. I batch sparge. It literally takes me 3 minutes to drain the mash and add the first sparge bring the grain up to 168. The initial run off is drained into the boil kettle which I start heating while the 1st and 2nd sparge are conducted. To do a mash out would be completely dumb for my setup. For others it may help.

noob question-- if you are doing a stovetop partial mash,

1. Is mashing out a good idea for the grain you are mashing?
2. If you dont have the volume to add sparge water to the mash, would just adding heat to bring kettle up to 168 be an appropriate plan?

sorry to thread jack.. but, its a question relevant to the "to do or not to do" theme.

I wasn't aware of any risk of a (reasonably) too high temperature sparge (i.e. 175). What are some of the ill effects?

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Could lead to astringency in your beer, may be caused by tannin extraction at higher temps.

The temperature of the sparge water is important. The water should be no more than 170°F, as husk tannins become more soluble above this temperature, depending on wort pH. This could lead to astringency in the beer.

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Palmer 17:4 http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter17.html

Rip said:

Could lead to astringency in your beer, may be caused by tannin extraction at higher temps.



Palmer 17:4 http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter17.html

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Thank you, glad I stopped by this thread.

HItransplant said:

noob question-- if you are doing a stovetop partial mash,

1. Is mashing out a good idea for the grain you are mashing?
2. If you dont have the volume to add sparge water to the mash, would just adding heat to bring kettle up to 168 be an appropriate plan?

sorry to thread jack.. but, its a question relevant to the "to do or not to do" theme.

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As Scutmonkey mentioned, batch spargers tend to not mash out. Mostly because they don't need to.

If you're doing a partial mash, you probably would rather batch sparge anyway. Fly sparging would be tough with a stove top partial mash.

What I would do with a PM is to mash in with 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain. After the mash is over, you could lift up your grain bag and just dunk it into the sparge water. Or, you could lift up the grain bag and pour 170 degree water over it, up to the boil volume.

You could heat up the kettle, but you do that anyway when you bring the wort up to a boil so I don't see the point or necessity of a mash out. I'd prefer using any water as sparge water, as I think you'd get more out of the grain that way if the volume amount would be an issue.

I fly sparge so I do a hotter than normal sparge... too hot will give some astringency... I try not to go over 175° over 180° I have noticed some astringency. 185° was the worst, wasn't paying attention when brought sparge water up to temp. Only checked temp after it was running. DOH!

YooperGrandma said:

As Scutmonkey mentioned, batch spargers tend to not mash out. Mostly because they don't need to.

If you're doing a partial mash, you probably would rather batch sparge anyway. Fly sparging would be tough with a stove top partial mash.

What I would do with a PM is to mash in with 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain. After the mash is over, you could lift up your grain bag and just dunk it into the sparge water. Or, you could lift up the grain bag and pour 170 degree water over it, up to the boil volume.

You could heat up the kettle, but you do that anyway when you bring the wort up to a boil so I don't see the point or necessity of a mash out. I'd prefer using any water as sparge water, as I think you'd get more out of the grain that way if the volume amount would be an issue.

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ah, that makes sense... thats what I was originally told to do anyway. Thanks

EDIT: Graeme-- thanks for letting me sneak a question in on your thread.

I fly sparge everything (just bc of my set up, 5 gal bucket w/false bottom and a paint strainer bag with sparge arm) but it is harder and more temp critical

Scut_Monkey said:

I don't do one. I batch sparge. It literally takes me 3 minutes to drain the mash and add the first sparge bring the grain up to 168. The initial run off is drained into the boil kettle which I start heating while the 1st and 2nd sparge are conducted. To do a mash out would be completely dumb for my setup. For others it may help.

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I batch sparge and don't typically mash out either, but there is one thing to consider:

When you take the first runnings, the enzymes will still be active for as long as it takes for you to take the second runnings and get the thing up to the "magical" 165 degree mark. For some, who like to let the batch sparge settle for 15-20 minutes, the time could add up.

You seem to reduce this time by heating the first runnings while you are batch sparging, but others (i.e., myself) don't necessarily do that. I guess that means I'm getting a bit more activity than I thought I was...

I batch sparge and mashout. I minimize the amount of water I need to add for mashout by calculating the amount of boiling water needed to get the tun to 168F. I built a temperature controlled HLT that holds my sparge water, so I can just boil in a small pot on the stove and dump that into my mash when I'm ready to mashout.

jpc said:

I batch sparge and don't typically mash out either, but there is one thing to consider:

When you take the first runnings, the enzymes will still be active for as long as it takes for you to take the second runnings and get the thing up to the "magical" 165 degree mark. For some, who like to let the batch sparge settle for 15-20 minutes, the time could add up.

You seem to reduce this time by heating the first runnings while you are batch sparging, but others (i.e., myself) don't necessarily do that. I guess that means I'm getting a bit more activity than I thought I was...

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You are correct. This is one of the two reasons I start heating up the wort as soon as it's in the boil kettle. With such a small volume of roughly 2 gallons I can get it up to 168 in a very short time. Additionally, it allows me to start heating the wort up to achieve a boil in an overall faster time.

Fly sparge I run about a quart per min...

pksmitty said:

When mashing at about 154, batch sparging, about what temp do you need the sparge water to be in order to raise the grain bed to 168? Or does the amount of sparge water make too much difference to give an accurate answer? I have beersmith at home, so I'm sure I can play with that for each brew, but figured I'd see if there is a rule of thumb.


BTW Yoop, that is a great picture in your avatar!

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193 deg. water brings it up to 167-168 pretty much every time for me....I use a 48qt igloo cooler to mash in.I think beersmith tells me something a little lower but I`ve learned what the temp should be from experience.BTW I have never mashed out ( I batch sparge ) but I think I`m going to start...I haven`t been completely satisfied with my malt profile in my finished beer and I wonder if this is the reason why.It takes me at least 30 minutes to drain first runnings and I haven`t started heating my boil until after the 3rd runnings have mostly drained, so the wort was at lower temps for at least 1 hour over and above my mash time.I`ll report back with results after my next batch.

bctdi said:

193 deg. water brings it up to 167-168 pretty much every time for me....I use a 48qt igloo cooler to mash in.I think beersmith tells me something a little lower but I`ve learned what the temp should be from experience.BTW I have never mashed out ( I batch sparge ) but I think I`m going to start...I haven`t been completely satisfied with my malt profile in my finished beer and I wonder if this is the reason why.It takes me at least 30 minutes to drain first runnings and I haven`t started heating my boil until after the 3rd runnings have mostly drained, so the wort was at lower temps for at least 1 hour over and above my mash time.I`ll report back with results after my next batch.

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Please do report back! When I batch sparge, I always start my first runnings on to heat right away so the wort is nearly boiling by the time I drain the second round sparging. When I fly sparge, I always mash out.

bctdi said:

It takes me at least 30 minutes to drain first runnings

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Why?

I always open my valve partially to avoid a stuck sparge.... Not that I ever have , but just to set the grain bed.... I may be able to go faster if I tried.