Howto: Capture Wild Yeast

I have been reading this thread (and the yeast handling and storage essay) for a couple of hours but still have a question about the yeast storage/propogation issue. I understand that any "stow away" may overcome the "target" yeast if it is not stored as described, but what would happen if you were to take a pitching sized sample from the first brewed batch and store in a steralized vile? Then the next time you want to brew with the wild yeast (which should be nearly immediately!) you will be ready to go without needing to to through the starter steps. Each successive batch could be inoculated from the previous batch's yeast mat. Right?

Once the yeast is used to brew a batch, has it become isolated enough (eliminated other bugs or bacteria) to prevent it's destruction by other species in a storage vile? Are the other species still present?

Sorry if this question has already been answered, but I can't find it exactly....

Thanks!

AN_TKE said:

I have been reading this thread (and the yeast handling and storage essay) for a couple of hours but still have a question about the yeast storage/propogation issue. I understand that any "stow away" may overcome the "target" yeast if it is not stored as described, but what would happen if you were to take a pitching sized sample from the first brewed batch and store in a steralized vile? Then the next time you want to brew with the wild yeast (which should be nearly immediately!) you will be ready to go without needing to to through the starter steps. Each successive batch could be inoculated from the previous batch's yeast mat. Right?

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-Correct this should work. Theoretically you could go on infinite times, but in practice people do this at max a few times.

Once the yeast is used to brew a batch, has it become isolated enough (eliminated other bugs or bacteria) to prevent it's destruction by other species in a storage vile? Are the other species still present?

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The yeast does not get destroyed by bacteria or other yeast species, it might get overgrown or hampered in growth by the other organisms due to the production of toxins, lower pH, etc. IF you have a pure culture you can store it for some time in a vial at 4 deg C (fridge). I would not store a mixed culture of unknown stuff with some yeast in there too, who knows what happens in time with that.

Hope that answers your questions a little bit.

I had a bottle of my wild yeast brew some time ago. It came out really good. Very fruity and complex. I actually was stunned how good this came out. I stocked the yeast and am definitely using it again.

I guess what I am trying to figure out is that threshold moment (if there is one) when the yeast would be isolated or pure enough to allow storage/use with little or no chance of being overcome - when is it no longer a mixed culture? Would the first successful batch denote this? It seems like once you have a yeast sample multiply and can grab from it, it would be isolated - no? I suppose the point is - when is the yeast reliable for repeated use?

AN_TKE said:

I guess what I am trying to figure out is that threshold moment (if there is one) when the yeast would be isolated or pure enough to allow storage/use with little or no chance of being overcome - when is it no longer a mixed culture?

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This is hard to say. If you inoculate with a mixture, you sort of end up with a mixture. There will always be dormant bacteria/other bugs around, even if its only 0.001%, if you started with a mix. Some people might disagree with me, and you know, if you stock some of your yeast/mix, and grow it, you might end up with again almost 100% pure yeast. But there is guarantee.

Would the first successful batch denote this? It seems like once you have a yeast sample multiply and can grab from it, it would be isolated - no? I suppose the point is - when is the yeast reliable for repeated use?

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OK, what I would do is either

make a rein culture - a "pure" culture, consisting of only 1 strain of yeast and nothing else, by streaking your culture on agar plates, pick colonies, grow, repeat, until you have what you want,

or

stock your wild mixture of whatnot which gave you great results as it is. If you decide to take some of the yeast from lets say the bottom of your carboy after your first successful brew, and use that in your next batch, there is no way in telling if it will be the same as when you inoculated with your "somewhere in the wild" acquired culture. It might be, it might also not be. It depends on many factors, I would be surprised if it came out the same. _If_ all the same organisms are still present, they are probably present in different proportions. IF you want consistency, but still be adventurous, I would inoculate with the same stock of wild stuff and hope it comes out the same. I would not keep that stock for too long though.

Its always easier to work with pure cultures than with a mixture - its very, very hard to predict when you toss in a mix of whatever, what comes out.

I'm going for it. Brewed a dunkelweizen today and reserved about a quart of chilled wort in a jar. I plan on leaving it outside during the day and seeing what happens. I have terrible lab-type equipment and technique, but have some pals that I think will help me out once my sample is innoculated. Can't wait to see what I get. Seems like the perfect time here, or at least a good time. Starting to warm to springlike conditions. Trees starting to bloom, etc, etc.

BakerStreetBeers said:

I'm going for it. Brewed a dunkelweizen today and reserved about a quart of chilled wort in a jar. I plan on leaving it outside during the day and seeing what happens. I have terrible lab-type equipment and technique, but have some pals that I think will help me out once my sample is innoculated. Can't wait to see what I get. Seems like the perfect time here, or at least a good time. Starting to warm to springlike conditions. Trees starting to bloom, etc, etc.

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I say screw the lab equipment and technique (IMHO). Unless you enjoy that kinda of think of course. Just treat it like a starter.

I just had success cultivating wild yeast from an organic apple using only apple juice. I don't know if it is suitable for beer, but after three generations the sample I just tasted tasted slightly lactic but very tasty. We will see how it goes. I am planning to build this yeast up for another 3-4 generations and then pitch it into a batch of cider.

ericd said:

How long you leave it out will affect what you get. If you use it right after you first start seeing signs of life (2 weeks) you will just get wild yeast. Leave it out longer and you will get other things in it. This is what happens (from Lambic by Guinard):

(3 to 7 days) Enteric Bacteria and Kloeckera Apiculata
(2 weeks) Saccharomyces
(3 to 4 months) Lactic Acid Bacteria
(8 months) Brettanomyces plus Pichia, Candida, Hansenula and Cryptococcus

Note that a group of microbes take over from the previous one, so for example, at two weeks, Saccaromyces has completely taken over and there is no Enteric Bacteria or Kloeckera left in your culture.

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I've read through most of this thread, and something about this keeps nagging at me. It doesn't make sense to me that the amount of time that the wort has been left out/open determines what bugs you get. If that was the case and I wanted Saccharomyces, could I just wait two weeks and THEN put my jar out?

Isn't it somewhat more accurate to say (as the last quoted paragraph suggests) that the amount of time that your wild-bug innoculated wort sits determines which one are dominant.

BakerStreetBeers said:

I've read through most of this thread, and something about this keeps nagging at me. It doesn't make sense to me that the amount of time that the wort has been left out/open determines what bugs you get. If that was the case and I wanted Saccharomyces, could I just wait two weeks and THEN put my jar out?

Isn't it somewhat more accurate to say (as the last quoted paragraph suggests) that the amount of time that your wild-bug innoculated wort sits determines which one are dominant.

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I think what it means by "leaving it out" is letting it ferment. So you let it get innoculated and it gets a little of all this stuff in it. Organism 1 is good at getting off to a quick start so it dominates for two weeks. But at that point organism 2 is more suited to the environment (because of increased alcohol, lower oxygen, or something) and it begins to outcompete organism 1 and becomes the dominant bug. After a while, the slow starting organism 3 is able to outcompete organism 2, and so on.

I just finished the Wild Brews book recommended in this thread. Good stuff. It answers a lot of the questions that are still hanging out there and, sorry to be cliche, but it reminds me to RDWHAHB. The book disolves a lot of the fears that people (including me) express in this thread and explains how nature seems to work things out if you just put the right circumstances in place.

I think if you intend on doing more than just experimenting with a naturally inoculated brew (and I think that is probably most of us since it could take 3+ years to ferment a batch) then you should definately invest in this book. The $20 or whatever is well worth it.

sip.

Hey everybody,

So, I set out a sterilized jar with a bit of watered-down boiled wort in it several days ago. There are a few sizable (meaning the size of a nickel) globs floating around towards the bottom. Should I consider this one a lost cause, or is this a normal bacterial development on the way to a yeast culture?

jonnygreenwood said:

Hey everybody,

So, I set out a sterilized jar with a bit of watered-down boiled wort in it several days ago. There are a few sizable (meaning the size of a nickel) globs floating around towards the bottom. Should I consider this one a lost cause, or is this a normal bacterial development on the way to a yeast culture?

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Next time I wouldn't water down the wort. The higher alpha acids and high sugar content will keep unwanted things from growing in it, IMO. Just fill a jar with some wort, put a hop bag over it and let it sit.

I'm going for Myeast14207 Northwest Buffalo Ale capture on Wednesday. Supposed to be a breezy, sunny, upper 40's day. Figure I'll put some cheese cloth over a growler with half liter of wort and leave it outside while I'm at work.

I left my hydro sample sitting in my garage from my Sunday brew. I went out to the garage tonight to find a nice little mini-krausen formed on top of it. Is this worth keeping and trying to harvest the yeast?

You bet it is! That looks awesome, just like mine did!

KingBrianI said:

I think what it means by "leaving it out" is letting it ferment. So you let it get innoculated and it gets a little of all this stuff in it. Organism 1 is good at getting off to a quick start so it dominates for two weeks. But at that point organism 2 is more suited to the environment (because of increased alcohol, lower oxygen, or something) and it begins to outcompete organism 1 and becomes the dominant bug. After a while, the slow starting organism 3 is able to outcompete organism 2, and so on.

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Yes that is what I meant.

I have been having 2 of 2 success harvesting with ... apple juice. It is more acidic than wort, and that seems to keep the unwanted stuff (eg MOLD!) at bay.

It will take awhile to cleanup my house yeast I captured but it looks good so far.

Yeah. I managed to grow half a growler of white slime. It looks so bad I'm afraid to even smell it.

UPDATE:

Apparently Myeast14207 is a Brett strain. The nasty slime has developed into quite a pellicle.

Apologies for grainy cell phone pics.

Could be lotsa things...white film doesn't necessarily mean brett.

Yeah I know. What's weird is that is doesn't smell like anything. I don't think it's yeast though. Bummer. If it's sour, I might use it to funk up a gallon of the tripel I'm brewing tomorrow.

This is my first attempt at capturing some wild yeast. Has anybody seen anything similar to this before? I'm thinking its probably just mold but i'm not sure. The starter hadn't shown any activity since exposing it to the air about five days ago, but this appeared when I checked it this morning.

It's kinda blurry and I can't tell, but if it's furry = mold.

This intrigues me and I'm definitely going to give this a try. In fact, I just bought some wide-mouth mason jars just for wild yeast collection. What I intend to do is place a couple jars with cheesecloth covering them out on my back steps. I'm a little confused as to how long I should leave them out, though. Do I leave them out until I see something (either infection or yeast fermentation) or just a day or two then bring them inside to finish up? I'm thinking the longer I leave them out, the better chance of success. Am I right? Also, has anybody had trouble keeping critters away or do they tend to not bother the jars or whatever you're using? I'm also wondering if placing jars in different places on my property could potentially yield different results based on their location.

I think I've got a successful wild starter!! I used some left over stout wort thinking, not quite what I wanted to use, but it would work and its free. It smells nice and fruity, sort of belgian-y. Surprising since it went in smelling like coffee. I am really excited to brew a local wild brew! Especially when a lot of people have said LA makes acetone tastes...here's hopin none of that!

On April 9, I gave it a go.

One month later...







This last one doesn't look too bad... but I'm not sure if that's mold floating on the top. Hah.



I think I'm going to try slants next time

Do most of you let these wild brews ferment a long time, or has anyone tried to use Camden tablets to capture and use mostly/only the yeast part of the culture (the first month or so) and then kill off the longer fermenting portion? Like brett, pediococcus, lactobacillus. I know my brew will be funky, but just curious how others are experimenting.

Okay, so I saved one cup of mystery (see my last post-- 2 above)... and it has recently decided to grow...something. I also noticed a couple small dead winged bugs (fruit flies maybe) in it right before this new growth.



What do I have here? Is this a complete loss? It doesn't look anything like my other attempts (again, see post above *gag*). It has a nice funk smell to it... would it be worth it to attempt a 1 gallon batch or is that mold on top?

A friend of mine, who is no longer with us, was a natural. He brought some XXX labeled stuff to one of our get togethers. It was pomegranate wine. The color was a beautiful, crystal clear, ruby red. It was the most wonderful wine I have ever tasted. Since I had done a few home brews, I asked him how he did it.
He said, 'I crushed the fruit, put it in a bucket, let it bubble, and bottled it'. Wild yeast.
I wish every home brew aficionado could have tasted it.

Hello all, long time lurker, first time posting. I'm a complete rookie / noob at wild and sour beers, but I've been intrigued by them beers for a while now, and this thread inspired me. I set out a jar of starter wort in late April, and it definitely caught something. The sample is cloudy as all get out and has a decent layer of tan yeast at the bottom. It smells hella funky. I guess you could call it barnyard-y, or animal-like, but also dusty, maybe even musty. I've read that brett produces barnyard and horsey aromas, but I've never read anything about dusty or musty aroma. It almost smells like a room in an old house. Is that a normal thing with wild yeast?
Also, it is forming some kind of thick, white, mucousy layer at the top of the jar? Could this be a pellicle?
I'm really excited about the possibility of brewing a wild beer, but I'd hate to make wort and then ruin it by pitching in mold infected starter. Any comments or help is appreciated.

You could make a small 1 gallon extract batch to try it out. You never know what you'll get doing this. The great thing is it's free, if you don't like it you can just try again.

My concern here is that the OP states the first step is an introduction of Enteric Bacteria -- E. Coli. Isn't that pretty dangerous to make a big batch of E. Coli juice??

It dies and is replaced by the other yeasts and bugs. That data is from the wild beers made in the lambic region. What actually happens in yours would really depend on your location I'd imagine.

Role as normal microbiota

E. coli normally colonizes an infant's gastrointestinal tract within 40 hours of birth, arriving with food or water or with the individuals handling the child. In the bowel, it adheres to the mucus of the large intestine. It is the primary facultative anaerobe of the human gastrointestinal tract.[17] (Facultative anaerobes are organisms that can grow in either the presence or absence of oxygen.) As long as these bacteria do not acquire genetic elements encoding for virulence factors, they remain benign commensals.[18]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli

Guy, this is a amazing tread! Here in Brazil we can only have dry yeast (Fermentis, etc), and any this amazing tread, with that one that show´s how to make a yeast bank, give me a whole new yummylicious set of possibilities!

KingBrianI said:

That confirms a suspicion I had that you could essentially capture the "essence" of a place by capturing wild yeast and other buggies there.

I'm thinking the floral/grassy flavors that may be captured from a meadow would make a great pale ale or IPA.

Earthy/woody flavors from the forest would make a killer Bitter.

What better use for a barn yeast than a nice funky belgian farmhouse ale?

And how nice would the fruity flavors from orchard yeast be with a hefeweizen.

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No, the only flavors you would capture are those derived from microorganisms at the site of collection. The floral/grassy flavors in a meadow come from flowers and grasses, not microbes.

When these flavors show up in fermentation, it's because yeast have created the flavors from sugar, not somehow captured them from the environment.

Anyway, I hope that makes sense and you understand that yeast don't reproduce flavors, they produce them.

Your best bet is to culture yeast from fruit skins, rotting fruit, fruit flies, or bees. Streak out the fruit/bee/fly on a plate of YPD-agar or 1.030 wort with yeast nutrient in 2% agar. Grow them up between room temp and 30C for several days until you have nice large colonies or a big lawn of growth. Re-streak and grow until you get single colonies. Isolate opaque colonies on a new plate, and after growing for a few days, smell the plate. Grow up strains that aren't totally nasty in 1.030 + nutrient wort and taste. Happy screening!

Abadeon said:

Guy, this is a amazing tread! Here in Brazil we can only have dry yeast (Fermentis, etc), and any this amazing tread, with that one that show´s how to make a yeast bank, give me a whole new yummylicious set of possibilities!

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OMG my new sig.

This thread is awesome. I've been brewing meads since January using wine yeast, but wild sounds really cool so I set out a steril jar with 1/2 inch of organic apple juice (a previous poster mentioned having good success with it) for 2 hours last Thursday. I did it in the morning while it was quite chilly out here in West NJ.

By Saturday night I noticed growth. On the bottom of the jar (inside) there are several tan, circular colonies. The juice itself is quite cloudy. On the surface of the juice were several mold colonies (circular and white, with green in the center). I've fished those out using a sterile metal spoon.

My question is, what do I have going in there? The mold was obvious, but what is making the juice cloudy and what are the tan circular growths at the bottom of the juice?

I plan to let the bugger keep going for a bit, even if it all turns out to be mold, just to watch the progress.

Thanks for any reply.