What is the key to making a thick black stout?

When I pour my favorite imperial stout, like Founders Breakfast Stout or Stone Russian Imperial Stout, and all I see coming out of the bottle is what I can only describe as an oil-like substance, how do I achieve that? Is it specialty grains that add body or specialty grains that add dark color? Or is it a combination of both? I recently made an oatmeal imperial stout and the color left me a little disappointed because it wasn't as dark or thick as I was hoping. Here is my recipe:

9.00 lbs extra light LME
1.5 lbs Pale Malt 2-Row
1.00 lb Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain
1.00 lb Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain
1.00 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain
1.00 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain

The final gravity was only 1.035 (which was probably due to me not using enough 2-row malt) so I had to keg it, but it was still kind of thin. Any suggestions on how to make a more thick and black imperial stout? Or is the problem simply that I didn't reach my target final gravity and the alcohol adds to the color and mouthfeel?

You can add malto dextrin to the keg. It will add body and not much else. With your recipe I'd think more 2-row to convert more flaked barley would be all you need to add more body. With a FG that high I think you might also want to add some sugar, but there is some contradiction to that. With two pounds of dark malt I don't know how you could need more color. Maybe add a touch of Roasted barley.

with that as your OG that stout you made was not imperial. I used molasses in mine, which gave me great results, but not everyone likes a molasses taste.

Too much BP for my liking.
Are you doing a 5 or 10 gallon brew?

I'd use some roast as was suggested to bump up the colour if it is 10 gallon. And you could always use sinimar.

If you didn't mash the flaked oats and barley, then you might as well not have added them. I want to brew the Founder's Breakfast Stout clone I have but since it calls for 22 oz. of flaked oats, I will be looking to do my first partial mash!

I recently brewed a RIS. Not with extract, but you can see basically the ratios I used in my recipe. It came out strikingly similar to Old Rasputin, it's black as night, and has amazing body.

17 lbs. 2-row
1.5 roasted barley
1.0 special b
0.75 chocolate malt
0.5 cara-pils
4 oz challenger @ 60
2 oz EKG @ 30
WLP002

Just shy of 5 gallons, OG 1.106, FG 1.028. 87 IBU, 51 SRM.

I love the Founders offerings and Old Rasputin, so this is my favorite beer I've brewed to date. Already planning on brewing it again this winter so I can give the next batch a full year of aging before tapping into it.

1.035 FG? That sounds pretty damn thick and viscous to me. I'm not sure how you could call a beer with that high of a final gravity thin.

marubozo said:

I recently brewed a RIS. Not with extract, but you can see basically the ratios I used in my recipe. It came out strikingly similar to Old Rasputin, it's black as night, and has amazing body.

17 lbs. 2-row
1.5 roasted barley
1.0 special b
0.75 chocolate malt
0.5 cara-pils
4 oz challenger @ 60
2 oz EKG @ 30
WLP002

Just shy of 5 gallons, OG 1.106, FG 1.028. 87 IBU, 51 SRM.

I love the Founders offerings and Old Rasputin, so this is my favorite beer I've brewed to date. Already planning on brewing it again this winter so I can give the next batch a full year of aging before tapping into it.

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Just curious, how much wort do you have when you brew this recipe? I would like to brew something like this but only have a 10 gallon brew kettle. I batch sparge so with such a high gravity brew I would have to boil more than 10 gallons of wort to get good efficiency. Are there other methods of sparging that yield less gallons of wort but still get good efficiency or do I just need a bigger brew kettle and have to boil for a really long time?

wonderbread23 said:

1.035 FG? That sounds pretty damn thick and viscous to me. I'm not sure how you could call a beer with that high of a final gravity thin.

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That's what I was thinking too, but I kegged it and had some yesterday and it was just not what I was hoping for, maybe I'm just expecting too much from it.

brad26 said:

That's what I was thinking too, but I kegged it and had some yesterday and it was just not what I was hoping for, maybe I'm just expecting too much from it.

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What was your starting gravity? I suppose if it was really high as well and you ended up with a high attenuation level (above 80% or so) that it could feel a little thin when considering the high amount of alcohol. I think a high level of carbonation could also leave it feeling a bit too thin.

brad26 said:

Just curious, how much wort do you have when you brew this recipe? I would like to brew something like this but only have a 10 gallon brew kettle. I batch sparge so with such a high gravity brew I would have to boil more than 10 gallons of wort to get good efficiency. Are there other methods of sparging that yield less gallons of wort but still get good efficiency or do I just need a bigger brew kettle and have to boil for a really long time?

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Well, I can say that this recipe maxed out my equipment. I have a 10 gallon rectangle cooler for mashing and I added about 7.75 gallons of water to nearly 21 pounds of grain and I could just barely close the lid. I then sparged with about 2.5 gallons to get a boil volume of around 7.25 gallons.

wonderbread23 said:

What was your starting gravity? I suppose if it was really high as well and you ended up with a high attenuation level (above 80% or so) that it could feel a little thin when considering the high amount of alcohol. I think a high level of carbonation could also leave it feeling a bit too thin.

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The OG was 1.097, then it stalled at 1.035 and couldn't get it going again, chances are it's just a bunch of dextrine in there because I didn't use enough 2-row to convert all the starches. But from what I understand dextrine adds body to the beer, so it's a bit confusing why it's so thin. It's very strange.

marubozo said:

Well, I can say that this recipe maxed out my equipment. I have a 10 gallon rectangle cooler for mashing and I added about 7.75 gallons of water to nearly 21 pounds of grain and I could just barely close the lid. I then sparged with about 2.5 gallons to get a boil volume of around 7.25 gallons.

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Do you still get good efficiency if you sparge with only 2.5 gallons? From what I've read sparge water should be 1.5 times the amount of mash water. Granted I'm still a rookie and I've only done a couple of AG brews and most of my problems I believe have come with mash temps not being adequate.

brad26 said:

The OG was 1.097, then it stalled at 1.035 and couldn't get it going again, chances are it's just a bunch of dextrine in there because I didn't use enough 2-row to convert all the starches. But from what I understand dextrine adds body to the beer, so it's a bit confusing why it's so thin. It's very strange.

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Yeah, 1.097 to 1.035 is about 64% attenuation... definitely not ideal, but not unheard of for a big beer. More 2-row wouldn't have an impact on the amount of dextrins. Dextrins come from basically two sources, crystal malts and using a high mash temperature. Most of the grains in your recipe do not even need conversion (the sugars are made during the kilning process). The exception is the oats which really need a proper mash in order to achieve optimal results with them. How roasty does it taste? Everytime I've used black patent my results have kinda sucked...tasting a bit acrid and ashy....maybe this is lending itself to a perception of thinness?

If I we you, I'd pull a glass off the tap, swirl some of the co2 out of it, and then let it warm to room temp. I bet at that point it'll have plenty of body.

Thickness is a function of the FG, and the amount of longer-chain sugars in the beer. The easiest way to get it would be to add maltodextrin. Those two stouts you mentioned probably start at high OGs so when they're done fermenting, even after good attenuation, they're at like 1.020.

You can get color by adding more dark grains, by doing a decoction mash, a longer boil, or adding minerals.

wonderbread23 said:

Yeah, 1.097 to 1.035 is about 64% attenuation... definitely not ideal, but not unheard of for a big beer. More 2-row wouldn't have an impact on the amount of dextrins. Dextrins come from basically two sources, crystal malts and using a high mash temperature. Most of the grains in your recipe do not even need conversion (the sugars are made during the kilning process). The exception is the oats which really need a proper mash in order to achieve optimal results with them. How roasty does it taste? Everytime I've used black patent my results have kinda sucked...tasting a bit acrid and ashy....maybe this is lending itself to a perception of thinness?

If I we you, I'd pull a glass off the tap, swirl some of the co2 out of it, and then let it warm to room temp. I bet at that point it'll have plenty of body.

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It's difficult to tell because I added some cold brewed coffee, and there is a big bitter coffee taste to the brew (I think I used too much coffee), so perhaps that is adding to some of the perception of thinness I am experiencing. But I will poor a glass and swirl it a bit and let it warm and see if it makes a difference.

brad26 said:

Do you still get good efficiency if you sparge with only 2.5 gallons? From what I've read sparge water should be 1.5 times the amount of mash water. Granted I'm still a rookie and I've only done a couple of AG brews and most of my problems I believe have come with mash temps not being adequate.

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Well, the amount of sparge water largely depends on how much water you mash with so that you can get to the appropriate boil volume and extract as much sugar as you can. It's a bit of a balancing act and there's no exact rule of thumb as every recipe and process is a bit different. I think the 1.5 number you're referring to may be the rule of thumb that says you should mash with about 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain.

marubozo said:

Well, the amount of sparge water largely depends on how much water you mash with so that you can get to the appropriate boil volume and extract as much sugar as you can. It's a bit of a balancing act and there's no exact rule of thumb as every recipe and process is a bit different. I think the 1.5 number you're referring to may be the rule of thumb that says you should mash with about 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain.

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I see. With my two AG brews I've been sparging with quite a bit of water and there is always a lot left in my cooler, and now that I think about it, it makes sense that is why my efficiency has been off. Thanks for the tip!

how much time did you give it to condition? you're not trying this on like week 3 or something are you? I'd let a stout like this condition until week 5 or 6 (even with keggin)

Also what yeast are you using? I'd with with a wlp002 or a wlp004 maybe.

marubozo said:

I recently brewed a RIS. Not with extract, but you can see basically the ratios I used in my recipe. It came out strikingly similar to Old Rasputin, it's black as night, and has amazing body.

17 lbs. 2-row
1.5 roasted barley
1.0 special b
0.75 chocolate malt
0.5 cara-pils
4 oz challenger @ 60
2 oz EKG @ 30
WLP002

Just shy of 5 gallons, OG 1.106, FG 1.028. 87 IBU, 51 SRM.

I love the Founders offerings and Old Rasputin, so this is my favorite beer I've brewed to date. Already planning on brewing it again this winter so I can give the next batch a full year of aging before tapping into it.

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So, how close was this? Old Rasputin is my favorite beer so far. I'd love to be able to make it. Thanks.

shelly_belly said:

So, how close was this? Old Rasputin is my favorite beer so far. I'd love to be able to make it. Thanks.

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I'll know for sure once it's had enough time to age properly, but as of now it's right up there with OR in terms of flavor, although it has a little more pronounced chocolate character.

I didn't set out to create a clone since I honestly don't know exactly what's in it and every single clone recipe I've found online are very different. So, I just tried to make an RIS true to style and hope it came out even remotely as good as OR. Luckily for me, it worked.

Ok. Going to copy this into my recipe database and start from there. I've got 2 22 oz'rs kick ass RIS left a friend of mine made in 04/09 I'm saving for my B-day in October. My plan is to brew a RIS on that day, hopefully something as good as Old Rasputin. Interested in how yours turns out. Chocolate sounds good.