Candi Sugar v. table sugar....

I want to brew a dubbel next, but im not really sure how much sugar I should think about adding. That, and im not sure whether or not to use the Dark Candi Sugar or just regular old table sugar?

Any help would be awesome.

Use amber candi sugar (invert sugar) with the dubbel. Usually around 1lb is what the recipes call for, though 2lbs isn't unheard of.

You can make the invert sugar easily enough. It's been discussed around here a few times before.

Take this for what it's worth, but I was listening to Jamil's show on Belgian Golden Strong Ale, and he launched into a diatribe (as he's prone to do) about simple sugars. He said that people worry way too much about sugars, and that you can use simple table sugar for up to about 25% of your total carbs and not have any problems. He said that spending the $$ on candi sugar or spending the time making invert sugar is just not worth it...and he also said that he was chatting with either Sam Calagione or Randy Mosher (can't remember which) and they said, and I paraphrase Jamil's paraphrasing, "look, don't waste your damn money or your time. I'll drive out to your house and deliver table sugar to your house, just please don't bother with anything else!"

So like I said, take that for what you will, but I trust Jamil and trust Calagione/Mosher. Oddly enough, Jamil's book has several recipes that call for candi sugar. I wonder if he just changed his ways since the book was published...?

Me? I'll either use table sugar or corn sugar for clean fermentables, or I'll use sucanat or molasses if I want flavor too.

I'm with Evan!. I wouldn't waste my time with anything but plain old table sugar...unless it was getting toward that 25% mark...which would be like what 3 or 4 #?

i find that for my purposes, i can evenly exchange candi sugar for brown sugar, and havent noticed the difference other than in my wallet.

JZ does suggest using dark candi syrup for Belgian strong darks and maybe dubbels also.

Other than that he's all into the table sugar per Evan's statements.

I have used table sugar and candi sugar and have noticed no difference.

In a dubbel I's think about a Belgian Candi sugar just for the flavors that it imparts but by and large I agree that table sugar is perfectly acceptable to use (in some styles).

I'm using table sugar in an upcoming Biere De Garde because I need it to finish REALLY low and I want to give the yeast as much simple sugar to much on as possible.

What kind of flavors, without sparking a debate, are given by candi sugars and that other fancy sugars out there. Is it just not as dry or what??

I think for my dubbel I will most likely use just regular old table sugar, but just for reference.....

BTW, is it okay to use aromatic in trappist style ales?

It's a different sweetness than table sugar. Candi sugar also give you a bit of an aroma that cane sugar does not.

It's certainly not wrong to use cane or beet sugar in a dubbel, I would just probably use amber candi sugar.

IMO, it's perfectly acceptable to use aromatic in just about any belgian beer.

Evan! has it mostly right. The thing is though that many use candi sugar to add color to the finished product as well, obviously plain white table sugar is not going to do that.

However, if you have a recipe calling for light candi sugar, or clear candi sugar, just put plain sugar in towards the end of the boil. To make candi sugar all you have to do is add heat to sugar in an acidic environment. Well, guess what, wort is pretty acidic, and pretty hot while it is boiling, so if you add plain white sugar 15 minutes before flame out, you essentially make light candi sugar in your boil.

Now, if you want color, you will have to make some of your own candi sugar. I believe O'flannigan has perfect instructions on how to make it. It might even be in the wiki. It is pretty easy.

EDIT: yes, it is in the wiki

cubbies said:

Evan! has it mostly right. The thing is though that many use candi sugar to add color to the finished product as well, obviously plain white table sugar is not going to do that.

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For a dubble though, the amount of color added from the candied sugar, even if you're using dark candy, is nothing. The color is derived from the Special B that you use.

I'm of the mind that if it works for you, then you should use it. I know some people are very "anti candi sugar" while others are the opposite.

Yeah, there is no necessarily a need for candi sugar in a Dubbel, but there are a great many beers that would benefit from a little added color from the candi sugar.

My rule of thumb is if it needs color from the sugar, use candi sugar...if not, use plain white sugar at the end of the boil.

There is a great article in the latest Zymurgy about sugars and the outcomes overtime in the bottle. The author takes several types of sugars and experiments with the same base beer with these sugars added. I think he used candi sugar, corn sugar, molasses and brown sugar. The outcomes over a 5 week period were documented and intriguing. If you can do read. It tells alot. Basically, according to the author, brown sugar out performed most all others, if you believe it or not.

- WW

My 2 cents: If you want a great beer use dark candi sugar cut with table sugar at 50/50.

Makes a great beer and one that is close to great Belgium brews.

http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/brew_resource/syrup.html

Follow the above link for a little talk about the color you get from the sugar.

Cheers

Willie3 said:

Basically, according to the author, brown sugar out performed most all others, if you believe it or not.

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Good to know. I'm doing a Belgian strong dark soon and was hesitant to spend the money on candi sugar. I think I'll do brown sugar instead and see what happens.

Man, I wish I read this thread before spending $ on Belgian dark candi sugar, Oh well next time I'll try brown sugar.
Thanks for all the information once again.

What I just did with my dubbel was actually go .75 lbs dark candi & .5 lbs cane sugar. I needed the color of the dark sugar but also the crisp dryness from the cane sugar.

I think it will work out well...

I've also heard of people cooking cane sugar with a small amount of water or a long time, maybe 3 hours) to darken and caramelize it. But I think any white sugar is pretty much interchangeable (besides lactose).

Be careful with the brown sugar because it is just molasses and white sugar mixed together. The molasses has a very strong flavor that the author stated was horrible at the beginning then developed over a 6 month aging.

The money spent on the right sugar is very small when you take into account the malt, hops and time you are going to put forth into the brewday, aging, racking and possibly bottling.

If you try the 50/50 split with the D2 and table sugar you will love the beer and the beer will go faster than you can get more brewed and ready to replace the long gone first batch.

trust me......

Willie3 said:

There is a great article in the latest Zymurgy about sugars and the outcomes overtime in the bottle. The author takes several types of sugars and experiments with the same base beer with these sugars added. I think he used candi sugar, corn sugar, molasses and brown sugar. The outcomes over a 5 week period were documented and intriguing. If you can do read. It tells alot. Basically, according to the author, brown sugar out performed most all others, if you believe it or not.

- WW

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I just read the Zymurgy article and I got almost the exact opposite from it...it says "the Brown Sugar was a waste of perfectly good wort, the LEAST favorite of the beers. The brown sugar gave the beer a harsh, murky flavor without any complexity." In the author's table of taste preference brown sugar was dead last (he almost dumped the keg) until after 5 MONTHS of aging, where it moved up to second place, behind the Candi sugar. Clear Belgian Candi sugar was the overwhelming favorite for taste in all time periods, so based on his experiment it seems to me worth the money and the 15 minutes to make it yourself with water and citric acid. Cane sugar added a "fruity" taste. After 5 months the fruit disappeared but it never added any complexity.

Keep in mind that in his experiment, he was making a Tripel, and he added these sugars AFTER all primary fermentation was complete...when each beer was down to 1.012 already, not to the boiling wort. He let each finish to 1.008. He said each one was so unique that you could not tell they came from the same batch. So the sugar choice does really matter.

Posting in this thread

I may be beating a dead horse with this post but the owner of the brewery I work for asked me this very question yesterday (I am the brewer at the Bloomington Brewing Co. in Bloomington Indiana). There is really no difference between clear candi sugar and table sugar..except citric acid is added to the clear candi sugar.In fact most belgian candi sugar is made with simple table sugar. Now there is a slight difference when talking about darker candi sugar..these are darker because they are carmalized sugars. They stay on the heat longer and get darker due to caramelization. That caramelized flavor will show up in the final flavor of your beer. In my opinion that is why some really good dubbels/tripels have that cotton candi sugar sweetness. I would use belgian candi sugar if the recipe calls for dark/amber..if it calls for clear just use table sugar and throw in some lemon juice and call it a day. Cheers

OnTheStrangeBrew said:

I may be beating a dead horse with this post but the owner of the brewery I work for asked me this very question yesterday (I am the brewer at the Bloomington Brewing Co. in Bloomington Indiana). There is really no difference between clear candi sugar and table sugar..except citric acid is added to the clear candi sugar.In fact most belgian candi sugar is made with simple table sugar. Now there is a slight difference when talking about darker candi sugar..these are darker because they are carmalized sugars. They stay on the heat longer and get darker due to caramelization. That caramelized flavor will show up in the final flavor of your beer. In my opinion that is why some really good dubbels/tripels have that cotton candi sugar sweetness. I would use belgian candi sugar if the recipe calls for dark/amber..if it calls for clear just use table sugar and throw in some lemon juice and call it a day. Cheers

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Exactly what I did with my Ginger Saison - used table sugar, added a pinch of lemon juice, worked just fine.

After a couple experiments with making my own candi sugar its really quite easy to make it yourself. 1 lb of candi sugar costs me, like, 25 cents to make (obviously excluding labor and tools, but you should have the tools anyway). A good heavy metal :rockin: pot with a candy thermometer, or, really a thermometer in general, I have a nice one with a long probe and metal cord that I can just have the tip resting in the solution. In about 30 minutes I'll have a light blond/yellow candi sugar, syrup or sugar, either way.

If you buy table sugar on sale, sometimes I can get 5lbs for a dollar around here so making the candi sugar is basically pennies. As for if you're going to use clear candi sugar/syrup, I would just save the time and add the table sugar straight to the boil. I have a BDSA fermenting right now with some home made amber/brown candi sugar in it that gave it a great red/ruby hue.

I have an imperial buckwheat honey saison I'm planning to brew next weekend wiht some blonde/golden candi sugar, I could just use regular table sugar sure. I happen to enjoy the process of making candi sugar though, and I put the hot sugar into a no edge brownie pan and I get these awesome looking candi sugar ingots (I'm a nerd so what if I'm imaging them as ingots of gold).

TLDR: Clear candi sugar? Meh, don't bother just use table sugar. Anything else in terms of candi sugar? Save the money and make it yourself unless you're in a pinch/hurry for some reason. Brown Sugar? In my experience it really does add a salt flavor and sometimes a little bit of a body odor aroma, could've been something else I did to the beer, but I have seen other brewers say brown sugar can impart a salty flavor.