Wyeast 3191 Berliner Weisse no activity

If it's not sour enough, you can always add some food grade lactic acid. You won't get anymore character out of the beer though, it just increases sourness.

I bottled the beer this weekend. I managed to break a bottle neck while capping and ended up drinking a pint of flat beer. After drinking a full pint I've decided the lactobacillus really didn't come through much at all. The Brett is there and definitely makes the beer funky but I have a feeling the Lacto didn't have time to do its thing before the ale yeast took over. I won't bother with this 3191 strain again, I'll just buy a seperate pack of Lactobacillus and add it 2-3 days before the ale yeast.

Good news. After just a few days my gravity is down to 1.006 and there is a strong sourness already present. I think keeping the initial temps near 80 for the first 2 days in the primary may have done the trick. As a possible consequence of the high temps, the yeast have put off some strong sulfur aromas, but I expect those will eventually dissipate. Of course it is not yet as sour as I would like, but it's further along than I expected based on other experiences with 3191 I've read. I've already decided that after a couple of months of aging, if the sourness isn't what I want, I'll pull off a liter or two into an Erlenmeyer or growler and try an experiment by adding lactose to see if the Lactobacillus can turn out some more lactic acid. If successful, I'll add lactose to the entire batch. :rockin:

My Berliner Weiss has spent 1 month in the primary and now 4 months in the secondary. I just snapped a couple of pics of the pellicle today (not sure if this is lacto or brett). I transfered it to my keg where it will sit till summer. I tasted the hydro sample and while it tasted good it wasnt very sour at all. I was really hoping with 5 months of aging it would have a good twang. I guess I will wait till summer and see if it has soured up at all and if not I will have to add some lactic acid to the keg. BTW has anyone seen that White Labs will be releasing their Berliner Weiss Blend as a platinum strain this Jan. I wonder if you would get more sour from using that rather than this blend.

My Berliner Weisse has now been in the bottles for 3 weeks. Cracked one open last night and there was barely any carbonation at all. I'm hoping that by summer the carbonation will increase. I taste absolutely no tartness at all. The main flavor is Brett. I am not happy with the Wyeast Berliner Weisse at all. I'm already planning a new brew with the Wyeast Lactobacillus 5335 and some Wyeast Kolsch II that I harvested this past summer. Not sure if I'll add the lacto 24 hours prior to the kolsch yeast or if I should wait til secondary to add the Lacto. Trying to find which method is best right now. I want a really sour beer.

I threw a pack of the 3191 into a batch second runnings from a BDSA back in November - when I racked it to secondary (into a corny-needed the carboy back in circulation) last month there was no pellicle,only the mildest of sour notes present & very bland. I figured I would throw in some white wine grape juice for flavour and leave it unmolested in the corny for a few months to figure itself out. I tasted it after another 3 weeks and it was still really bland, so decided to split the batch into 2 x 3 gallon carboys; one on blackberries and leave the other to see how it might turn out.

On opening the carboy, it looked like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24690024@N03/5375983172/

Now a month later I have a beautiful pellicle on the one I left alone, and some brett-esque stuff on the berries

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24690024@N03/5375983276/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24690024@N03/5375393157/

It now tastes nicely sour, and I'm probably just going to bottle it now (at 1.001) at let it age till the weather warms up

I was planning on doing another Berliner Weisse with their 5335 lacto culture and then add their Kolsch II culture that I have on stock in my fridge. The Wyeast website claims Kolsch as an acceptable yeast to use for a Berliner Weisse but now I'm starting to have my doubts. Kolsch is not what I would call a clean yeast, I just find it a bit odd that they list Kolsch as one of the yeasts you can use to make a berliner weisse. I guess it would be an interesting experiment.

steinsato said:

I bottled the beer this weekend. I managed to break a bottle neck while capping and ended up drinking a pint of flat beer. After drinking a full pint I've decided the lactobacillus really didn't come through much at all. The Brett is there and definitely makes the beer funky but I have a feeling the Lacto didn't have time to do its thing before the ale yeast took over. I won't bother with this 3191 strain again, I'll just buy a seperate pack of Lactobacillus and add it 2-3 days before the ale yeast.

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Yeah, I really think the key to the Wyeast blend is holding at very high temps (80 degrees) for the Lacto until you see the Sac kick in. I held mine at 78 to 80 for 2.5 days until I saw bubbling and then brought the temp down to 66 over the course of a day. I just bottled after it sat in secondary about 6 weeks and it is wonderfully sour. Not quite mouth puckering, but definitely a sharp, clean sourness. The Brett came through a little bit in the aroma. I'd have no problem using this yeast again. The problem is... I can't reuse. I imagine the yeast cake now has a disproportionate Sac to Lacto ratio relative to the original blend.

Just opened mine up to test the gravity and get a taste. The results? OG 1.030 FG 1.005 Super clear, mild brett earthiness, slight lactic in the finish, and a doughy bread aroma to the whole thing. I'm going to try to pitch some more lacto at bottling in hopes of souring it quicker. I figure that with all the sugar required to carbing it up to 3.5-4 volumes (Yay thick Belgian and and champagne bottles!) will give the lactobacillus more than enough to chew on and the bottle is a perfect anaerobic environment to let it thrive.

kidsmoke said:

Just opened mine up to test the gravity and get a taste. The results? OG 1.030 FG 1.005 Super clear, mild brett earthiness, slight lactic in the finish, and a doughy bread aroma to the whole thing. I'm going to try to pitch some more lacto at bottling in hopes of souring it quicker. I figure that with all the sugar required to carbing it up to 3.5-4 volumes (Yay thick Belgian and and champagne bottles!) will give the lactobacillus more than enough to chew on and the bottle is a perfect anaerobic environment to let it thrive.

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I'm curious how that turns out. It would be a good experiment to split the batch into two at bottling. Add more Lactobacillus to half and leave the other half as control. Or even better. . .split it into thirds and prime 1/3 with corn/table sugar plus Lacto, 1/3 with DME plus Lacto, and 1/3 with corn or table sugar and no Lacto. I'm curious if the Lacto would be able to better utilize the "less fermentable" sugars in DME and produce more acid than it would with corn sugar. I should have tried an experiment with mine. . .but I was pretty happy with the sourness at bottling. Next time. . . .

AaronKeller said:

I'm curious how that turns out. It would be a good experiment to split the batch into two at bottling. Add more Lactobacillus to half and leave the other half as control. Or even better. . .split it into thirds and prime 1/3 with corn/table sugar plus Lacto, 1/3 with DME plus Lacto, and 1/3 with corn or table sugar and no Lacto. I'm curious if the Lacto would be able to better utilize the "less fermentable" sugars in DME and produce more acid than it would with corn sugar. I should have tried an experiment with mine. . .but I was pretty happy with the sourness at bottling. Next time. . . .

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Actually the plan is to inoculate the 5 gallons and bottle ~3/4 gallons, while "dry peppering" the remaining 2/1 gallons with some ají peppers.

I'm happy to report, after bottling half of the batch, the berliner weisse has a nice tart lactic tang to it. I noticed that it started to ferment again about a week ago. I thought it was just the brett, I guess it was a combination the heater and most of the yeast dropping out. I nevertheless pitched a pint of active lacto into it along with some glucose before bottling and racking to secondary...

Curious, I just brewed up this weekend using this yeast. I had also gotten a pack of Lacto on it's own, since I originally planed to do a starter with lacto then add sach later, but couldn't past on the berliner pack because of the cost (Free).

I ended up pitching the additional pack of lacto because I had yet to see any activity after about 30 hrs. Temps have been right around 70-72, which feels high to me, but we'll see. I'm hoping the additional lacto will make up for lack of sourness that some report.

That pack of 3191 was probably pretty darn old. Wasn't it from last August? I'm not surprised it's taking awhile to get started. I would think 70-72 is a decent range for this considering lacto likes it to be 80-90 and your sach probably likes it in the mid 60s. I just brewed 10 gallons of Berliner Weisse on Sunday. I decided I did not like the 3191 pack and went with a 1L starter of lacto 5335 to each 6.5 gallon carboy. After about 24 hours I had some kreausen and airlock activity with just the lacto, it was in a water bath at 88F. 36 hours after the lacto addition I let the temp slowly drop to the upper 60sF and will then pitch a starter of German ale 1007 into one carboy and Kolsch II 2575PC into the other. I found that the 3191 was not nearly sour enough for my tastes so I am letting the lacto do it's thing for about 48 hours before I add any sach this time around.

P.S. my one experiment with 3191 left me thinking it didn't have enough Lacto in it. The brett in it really comes through though.

Came home tonight, saw a slight bit of activity from the blowoff, so I sneaked a peak. Sure enough, a krausen has formed.

I really hope the extract pack of lacto helps the sourness come through, since I haven't had a good sour since visiting Cascade on their opening week.

I've been emailing Labservices @ Wyeast about berliners and this is what they've had to say about how long to let lacto run in the worth before pitching yeast:

think it is optimum to pitch the Lactobacillus a week before adding the yeast. I know this sounds crazy, but it is, I think, the only way to get a sour Berliner quickly.

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I'll probably give it a try when I brew a gose....

I just tried my Berliner tonight. It was brewed in August 2010. It sat all winter in my basement as the brett and lacto worked along. I am happy to say it is very tasty. It is very light and refreshing with a surprisingly tart finish. I am going to brew 10 gallons this summer for next summers consumption. It has been well worth the wait.

kidsmoke said:

I've been emailing Labservices @ Wyeast about berliners and this is what they've had to say about how long to let lacto run in the worth before pitching yeast:



I'll probably give it a try when I brew a gose....

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Thanks for posting that. That makes sense to me. I along with the vast majority of BW brewers, can't get enough sourness. I pitched 5335 and let it sit for 3 days at 90F, hardly sour at all. Next time it's going to be a full 7 days. I'll just use a super-hardy yeast to finish it off, like 3711, that can work in damn near any environment.

Recently I've tried using acid malt rather than lacto. I used a lot, 12%, but didn't taste much of it pre-carbonated samples. I report back when that is carbonated.