How much crystal?

I posted this Friday in the Beginner Forum because I thought it was a beginner question, but it got no responses over the weekend, so I thought maybe I'd put it in the wrong place. I do have a couple questions about the attempted recipe as a whole, but the main question relates to the limit of crystal malts. The Wiki says 20% is the max, but I see a lot of people saying 15%. And I'm having trouble squaring this with the specs on which I'm basing the attempt. Anyways, here's the whole issue:

I've always liked Sam Adams Mighty Oak Ale, and I thought maybe if I made some, I could have some in the fall instead of waiting for spring. Sadly, I haven't seen any clone attempts on the Internets, and I've never come up with a clone recipe myself. I thought I'd give it a shot based on these specs from their website:

Flavor: Smooth and malty with distinct oak character (incl vanilla and caramel flavors)
Color: rich amber (SRM 25)
OG: 14.0 Plato
ABV: 5.7%
Calories: 189
Malts: 2-row blend and Caramel-60
IBUs: 15
Hops: EKG and Fuggles
Yeast: Sam Adams ale yeast

The trickiest elements for me are the amount of caramel 60 and the hop schedule. Mostly the amount of caramel 60. They say that the only malts used are 2-row blend and caramel 60, imparting a sweet, slightly roasty flavor and a rich amber color. But that they still get SRM 25. Unless I misunderstand, adding enough crystal 60 to get an SRM of 25 is a really bad idea.

So my main question is: if adding enough C-60 to meet the site specs is a bad plan, how much should I add? I was thinking 15-20% of the grist should put me safely in the copper/red/amber range, although not nearly at 25. Thoughts on that?

My secondary question is the hop schedule. Because this is a spring beer and I didn't decide to make it until mid-summer, I don't exactly have something on hand to taste-test. So I have to go on guesses. I figure with only 15 IBUs, it's probably not a big deal, but should I go with three additions? They are supposed to contribute some earthiness.

So here's my first pass at it. Advice very, very welcome:

7 lb 8 oz 2-row (US?)
1 lb 12 oz Caramel-60
.25 oz Fuggles (60)
.25 oz EKG (60)
.25 oz Fuggles (20)
.25 oz EKG (20)
.5 oz Fuggles (0)
.5 oz EGK (0)
Wyeast 1056
.5 oz medium American oak chips for last week of primary

According to BeerCalculus (with 82% efficiency), this puts me dead on 14.0 Plato, 5.7% ABV, 188 calories, 15.0 IBU, and. . . 13 SRM. So it seemed a good first pass. But it's also 19% crystal-60. Advice greatly appreciated.

I try to cut myself off around 10% crystal usage so 19% is a bit high by my standards. You could use a real small amount of something like Carafa III, Roasted Barley, Midnight Wheat to bump that color up. Try a few ounces even though it's not in the recipe.

..but what exactly is "2-row blend"? Never had the beer, don't know much about the style, but for me 19% of any caramel is waaay too much. I would sub some of the Am 2-row with some dark Munich. And why not use East Coast Ale yeast? That's supposed to be S.A.'s. Oh, since you asked, I would bitter with just one of those hops, not both. Perhaps they are using a kettle carmelization like a Scottish Ale? Anyway that's my .02

logdrum said:

..but what exactly is "2-row blend"? Never had the beer, don't know much about the style, but for me 19% of any caramel is waaay too much. I would sub some of the Am 2-row with some dark Munich. And why not use East Coast Ale yeast? That's supposed to be S.A.'s. Oh, since you asked, I would bitter with just one of those hops, not both. Perhaps they are using a kettle carmelization like a Scottish Ale? Anyway that's my .02

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I don't know what 2-row blend is. I'm assuming they use a couple different 2-row malts and they want to keep exactly what they use a secret.

Not using East Coast Ale yeast because Wyeast doesn't make an equivalent, and my LHBS only has Wyeast products.

I like the dark Munich idea though. I've never used it before, but it sounds like it might solve a lot of problems. Because I've never used it before though, I'm stabbing in the dark a little bit as to how much I should do with dark Munich and how much with crystal. How does this sound:

6 lb 14 oz US 2-row (73%)
1 lb 8 oz Munich 30L (16%)
1 lb 0 oz Crystal 60L (11%)

1.057 OG, 13 SRM (I'm still assuming I should disbelieve their report of 25 SRM. IIRC, it's a reddish copper, which sounds more like 25 EBC than 25 SRM, unless I grossly misunderstand)

the amount of caramel you would need to achieve 25 srm is to much. there has to be another darker malt. possibly special roast, special b or victory

TarVolon said:

I don't know what 2-row blend is. I'm assuming they use a couple different 2-row malts and they want to keep exactly what they use a secret.

Not using East Coast Ale yeast because Wyeast doesn't make an equivalent, and my LHBS only has Wyeast products.

I like the dark Munich idea though. I've never used it before, but it sounds like it might solve a lot of problems. Because I've never used it before though, I'm stabbing in the dark a little bit as to how much I should do with dark Munich and how much with crystal. How does this sound:

6 lb 14 oz US 2-row (73%)
1 lb 8 oz Munich 30L (16%)
1 lb 0 oz Crystal 60L (11%)

1.057 OG, 13 SRM (I'm still assuming I should disbelieve their report of 25 SRM. IIRC, it's a reddish copper, which sounds more like 25 EBC than 25 SRM, unless I grossly misunderstand)

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Sorry, I totally misunderstood when you said "dark Munich." I just assumed it was the darkest Munich they made, but after googling, it looks more like it's 10L. Let me amend that second attempt then. . .

4 lb 8 oz US 2-row (46%)
4 lb 0 oz Dark Munich (9L) (41%)
1 lb 4 oz crystal-60 (13%)

How does that sound? Obviously I'm kinda making this up as I go along, but this does seem like a good way of getting a good deep amber without 75 pounds of crystal. Although SA doesn't report using Munich anymore than they report using black patent or carafa or whatever

Glynn said:

the amount of caramel you would need to achieve 25 srm is to much. there has to be another darker malt. possibly special roast, special b or victory

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Hence my frustration with SA. They say they use 2-row and crystal-60. But then they say SRM 25. Google image "Mighty Oak Ale." I know it's tricky to tell on a computer screen, but no way that's actually SRM 25, is there?

I've used 1lb of Crystal 40 and Crystal 120 to get to 17 SRM. You might want to add some Cholocate Malt to it. Incidentally, 25 SRM is much darker than an amber ale. Ambers are 10-17 SRM.

logdrum said:

Perhaps they are using a kettle carmelization like a Scottish Ale? Anyway that's my .02

Click to expand...

This was my first thought after reading the OP. Some brewers extend the boil to carmelize sugars in the wort rssulting in a slighy darker beer. Dont ask me how to show that in BeerCalculus. You may just have to jump in with both feet and brew. I'd consider matching SRM pretty zealous in most clones, but it may be an important part of the flavor profile here. Be prepared to rebrew this; most clone attempts need tweaking (just search this site and read a few "clone attempt" threads!)

ludomonster said:

I've used 1lb of Crystal 40 and Crystal 120 to get to 17 SRM. You might want to add some Cholocate Malt to it. Incidentally, 25 SRM is much darker than an amber ale. Ambers are 10-17 SRM.

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Yeah, that's kinda what I thought. I've just been treating it as SRM 13, because that's the same as EBC 25, and that's the only thing that makes remotely close to sense as to why they'd report SRM 25 on their site.

When you say 1lb of crystal 40 and 120, does that mean a pound combined? I assume it does, because a pound each would be getting crazy with the crystal. I think.

another possibility? are they aging it in chard oak barrels and would that add the vanilla tones and color

houndsbreath said:

This was my first thought after reading the OP. Some brewers extend the boil to carmelize sugars in the wort rssulting in a slighy darker beer. Dont ask me how to show that in BeerCalculus. You may just have to jump in with both feet and brew. I'd consider matching SRM pretty zealous in most clones, but it may be an important part of the flavor profile here. Be prepared to rebrew this; most clone attempts need tweaking (just search this site and read a few "clone attempt" threads!)

Click to expand...

Yeah, I totally don't expect to get it dead on. I won't even know if I get it dead on, because I'll probably drink it all before Mighty Oak comes out again (it's a spring release). I just want to at least get something with a flavor profile along the same lines. Something that tastes good enough that I won't have any problem drinking 5 gallons of before spring.

The decision is whether to just go with a 2-row/c-60 split, which would require a craptop of crystal, whether to add dark Munich (per log's suggestion) or add an ounce of black patent or something. And I'm not sure which is going to give me the more accurate flavor profile.

Here's what they have on their site, FWIW: http://www.samueladams.com/enjoy-our-beer/beer-detail.aspx?id=0cbc03ba-f238-4f1f-89e9-59fdd94d2e4d

I really appreciate the suggestions, but I think now I ended up with more options than I had to begin with, and I'm still not sure which is best. From the information on their site, does anybody have any guesses as to what will give me the truest flavor profile. The options off the top of my head:

*Use 19% crystal-60 to get to SRM 13 with just 2-row and c-60, hope the oak chips cut the sweetness.
*Use 15% crystal-60 to get to SRM 11 or so and hope this is a true flavor profile even if the color is off.
*Use 10-12% crystal-60 and an ounce of black patent or the like for coloring, even though SA doesn't say they use it.
*Use 10-12% crystal-60 and replace half the US 2-row with Munich, even though SA doesn't say they use Munich.

I the impression I've gotten is that option #1 will lead me to trouble. I've gotten suggestions for each of the following three, and I'm not sure what is best going to match the flavor profile. All of them diverge from the listed specs in various points. But I'm not trying to get the listed specs so much as the actual beer, and I suspect they don't match up as well as they should. I notice there's a Boston ale clone thread with a guy having similar issues.

If you really want to clone it, you may want to make 1 pint worts with various compinations of malts until you get a combination that works well. You could also try asking them for how much they use and adjust it to your system. Even if you get the exact ratio they uses, it still might have to be different for your system. Things go on in large capacity brewing that we don't worry about as 5 gallon brewers.

I'm actually not as concerned about getting a clone as I sound. Like I said earlier, Mighty Oak won't come out until spring, so I wouldn't even be able to sample and see how close I'm coming. I just haven't ever really built a recipe before, and I don't have a great feel for how the malts work together. I've never even made anything that involved either Munich or crystal-60 (this will be batch #7 overall, batch #5 of all-grain). Because I've never made anything with these malts, I feel like the closer I can stick to what they do, the more I know I'm going to get something that tastes pretty good. But really, I just liked their idea of an amber with some oaky/vanilla flavor, and if I can get something in that ballpark that's tasty, I'll be quite satisfied.

:rockin:TarVolon: See my Sam Adam's Boston Ale post in this same area of the forums. I have the same issue. Their 2-row blend is a blend of various seed types like Copeland or Herrington. It is pretty much what you are going to get in a generic bag of two row.

I had the same issue with color so I just used a butt load of C60 and am awaiting the results in a few weeks. Probably going to be cloyingly sweet and I will have to revisit and rebrew. One suggestion I got was to use one of the various 3-5L pale malts like Mild Malt or ESB Malt as your base malt which will kick the color up enough to drop out a half pound or so of the C60. This got me to thinking about color further and I remembered that there are C60's out there that are >60L, up to 70L in fact. So if you use say a 68L C60 malt and a 5.3L Mild Malt, for instance, this should significantly drop your C60 percentage while keeping a darker color that is closer to the real deal. This is what I am going to do on my next attempt which should be next month sometime...This will be the same malts as Sam Adams is probably using to get that color unless we are still missing a piece of the puzzle. Best of luck!:rockin:

My LHBS doesn't have ESB or Mild Malts, unless they're sold under a different name. What about using Marris Otter as the base malt? Instead of using 19% crystal and 81% US 2-row, I could use 15% crystal and 85% Marris Otter. Would that still be cloyingly sweet, do you think?

Either way, I'll try something other than what you tried, and in six weeks or so, I'll report back how it turned out. Hopefully it'll give you good info before your next attempt.

You can try MO but I think that will change the taste moreso than ESB, pale, or Mild will. You can always do what I do for malt: order a bunch from MoreBeer. If you order enough ( $50, I usually go in with one or more of my coworkers who also brew) then you can get the free shipping deal. Turns out to be much cheaper than my LHBS that way. Morebeer has the american pale ale malt at 3L for around a buck per pound for the 10 lb sack. You may be able to find similiar deals elsewhere as well. They also have english brown malt at 60-70L which is a crystal malt. Whatever you end up doing please do post back as will I in the other thread. We'll find a way to clone this yet!!

Good luck and happy brewing!!

To be fair, it's possible my LHBS site isn't updated--I usually don't rely on the Internet to see what they carry, but I wasn't over there today. I'll swing by tomorrow and see if they have anything in the way of ESB or Mild. If I'm pleasantly surprised, I'll give that one a shot. But I doubt it.

If not, I've been doing a lot of looking at Mighty Oak reviews to see if they could give me a guide on which way to turn. One factor that gets mentioned a lot is that the caramel flavor is very strong. A handful complained that it was cloying, but most who mentioned the sweetness said that it's balanced by the oak. This makes me suspect that they really may use near 20% caramel malts and just count on the oak balance.

That said, that's only a guess, I've never made anything with oak before, and I have no idea how much they used to get it to balance. I'm going to start small (half ounce, 7-10 days) to make sure I don't overdo it. And since you're already trying the 20% crystal, I'll try 15% and sacrifice the color. If there's room for more sweetness, I'll know for next time. If there's not, I'll try another way to get color. But, in this case, better off erring on the side of less sweetness, because a mistake in that direction will still yield drinkable beer. Will report back what the final recipe ends up being, and then how it turns out around Labor Day or whenever it's done.

So I just had another idea. Sam Adams uses decoction mashing. I don't. So I can get a little of the color and maltiness back--while keeping pretty well with their recipe--with melanoiden malt. I've heard it's very strong, but I've used a half pound before in a five gallon batch, and it turned out quite well.

So, unless I have any sudden revelations before I get to the LHBS, this will be my malt bill:

7 lb 6 oz US 2-row (80%)
1 lb 8 oz Caramel-60 (16%)
0 lb 6 oz Melanoiden Malt (4%)

BeerCalculus has the SRM at 12 (EBC 24). As I said, Sam Adams self-reports an SRM of 25, which is wrong, so I've been shooting for EBC 25 instead, because it seems a likely way of making a mistake. And this gets me pretty close, without needing 20% crystal. This actually reduces the crystal by 14% (from 19% of the grist to 16%) from the first crack at a recipe. It'll still be a sweet beer (hopefully balanced somewhat by the oak), but I've hopefully erred on the side of not disgustingly or cloyingly so.

Will let y'all know how it comes out (especially stone)

Good luck, TarVolon! BTW I forgot to mention that I have already brewed the Boston Ale once and the keg went quickly, so perhaps our focus on the C60 is a little overboard. I will say, while it was a tasty, tasty brew it definitely was off and thus the second attempt. I sensed the issue was in the hops, not the malt though so on the second go around I changed the hop lineup by removing the Hallertau and leaving the EKG and Fuggles. Right as I am kegging it, someone posted to my thread that on a tour they told him they only use Hallertau in the Boston Ale. Doh! Will let you know in a few weeks...fingers crossed this is closer!

stone, and anyone else interested:

went with 80% 2-row, 16% c-60, and 4% melanoiden, figuring the oak aging would cut the sweetness a bit.

After three weeks, it tasted like a tree. After four weeks, it has malty sweetness cut by a hint of oakiness. I can't say how it'd be without the oak chips, but I'd say it turned out pretty well as is.

Yum...tree beer! Grin!! I am having one of the BA clones as I type. It is not BA but it is good. I have a few things in the queue but I will try this again in a few weeks with just Hallertau and post back here on the results. Once we get this dialed in, it's going on my house beer list, along with Stone Pale Ale, Alaskan Amber, Budvar Pilsner, and Lake Walk APA...

Cheers!
Stone