Thinking about 120v BIAB setup

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theschick

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I've read through ScubaSteve's crazy nice electric BIAB setup. I'm not that ambitious, knowledgeable, etc. I really want this to be as simple as possible, although electric.

A little background:
I do a "traditional" all grain using an MLT, keggle, turkey fryer, etc. My initial plans was to build a simple electric HLT, but now I'm thinking about making it just a BIAB vessel.

My thoughts are to use 2 1500w elements. I know bigger is better, go 240, blah blah blah. I want something that I can plug into pretty much any circuit, travel to a buddy's house etc., hence limiting it to a total 3000w. I have some 20a circuits in the house, but want this to be more mobile. I understand this will probably limit me to 5 gallon batches, and I'm 100% okay with that. I can make 10 gallon batches in my current setup if I needed to. I've also read how long it will take to heat to temp, and I'm okay with that as well.

My initial thoughts (which could very well be incorrect):
Outfit my keggle with two 1500w heating elements. Not sure if the placement of two elements in proximity of each other is important. Was thinking about setting them about 45 degrees from each other. At first I was just going to run these into a junction box where I had two GFCI outlets that run to different circuits via an appropriately rated extension cord. Power would be controlled by a simple switch, so the elements are either on or off.

I'm now thinking about expanding this to using a PID and two SSR (which are terms I just learned yesterday). I believe one PID can control two SSRs, which then controls the elements being on or off.

I understand I'll need to come up with some way to keep the bag off the elements when mashing. Perhaps a steaming basket, wire rack, etc. Also need to insulate the keggle, etc.

Any issues with using a project box to hold a PID, two SSRs, and the two GFCI outlets? Elements plug into the GFCI, which is on or off from the SSRs? Please excuse me if I don't understand the concept of any of these electrical pieces.

This would be a no sparge, no recirculate setup. Just a simple 120v powered electrical BIAB.
 
I am also looking to do this (2 1500W elements) or something similar (might stick with elements that are not mounted to the kettle - would make mashing easier). Eagerly awaiting responses as I have almost no experience/knowledge in this field.
 
I just brewed a couple of days ago and was thinking the same thing. The hardest part of BIAB is keeping my mash temp consistant. I love BIAB, easy, great efficiency, and easy clean up. If I could solve the mash temp consistancy I would be so thrilled.
 
I think your idea sounds good. I like that it could be both simple and versatile.

You can switch two SSRs using one PID. I do this in my rig, and it works very well.

As for the power, I think you have some options. If you build it so the elements plug into the control box and screw into the kettle, you open yourself up to more flexibility. For another $20 per element (including cords, plugs, and epoxy), you could get a pair of 2kW elements that you use at home on your 20A circuits, and then have the 1500W elements for when you travel. It really depends on how patient you are.

3000W will have you hitting mash in in about 40 minutes for a 5 gallon batch. Bumping that to 4000W will have you mashing in in about 30.

Also, I have a boiloff rate of 1 gallon per hour when I am using 2700W. Just useful information as you plan your build.

Joshua
 
You can definitely build a little control box with two GFCI outlets, SSR, PID and heat sink, I did it with my CB20 system (see link in my sig).

Two 1500w elements will be fine for a 7-8 gallon pre boil volume. You only need to PID control if you want to maintain mash temps, otherwise 3000w will give you about 1-1.3 gallons boil off in an hour, which is fine.

If you are going to try to maintain mash temps, I would recommend a pump to recirculate with direct heat from the element, but you have to shield the grain from the element. Besides my CB20 system, I also built a single vessel BIAB system with a built in IC copper coil for chilling like you are contemplating with two 1500w elements. I use a small recirculation pump from a March AC-1 pump I got on ebay for $35. In this scenario, you only need 1 SSR because you can maintain mash temps with only one element. The other element only gets used to bring up to strike temp and for boil and in both cases can be plugged directly into the wall, no need to for an SSR or PID.

The one thing I would caution is that you will lose about 5-8 degrees during the mash in your keggle, even with good insulation. That is why I recirculate with direct heat during the mash and maintain mash temps with my PID. You have to be very careful not to contact the grain with the elements because you can scorch the grain and even fry the element. Trust me, I have done both and I use ultra low watt density elements.
 
I think you're on the right track....can't remember which, but either the 40 or 60qt bayou classic basket will fit in your keggle...giving you something to hold onto and keeping the bag off the element if you build feet for it. You can go with Al if you want to save $$$, and forgo the screen if you'd prefer a bag. If you go the control box route...REALLY study these other builds and their parts lists....I can't tell you how much extra money I've spent on the wrong/not enough parts!
 
I used my old 30 quart aluminum kettle to hold the bag in my keggle. Just drilled a lot of holes in the kettle with a 3/8" spade drill. Works great, leaves the space for the element and protect the bag. Plus its nice for draining the bag as well.
 
I've read through ScubaSteve's crazy nice electric BIAB setup. I'm not that ambitious, knowledgeable, etc. I really want this to be as simple as possible, although electric.

A little background:
I do a "traditional" all grain using an MLT, keggle, turkey fryer, etc. My initial plans was to build a simple electric HLT, but now I'm thinking about making it just a BIAB vessel.

My thoughts are to use 2 1500w elements. I know bigger is better, go 240, blah blah blah. I want something that I can plug into pretty much any circuit, travel to a buddy's house etc., hence limiting it to a total 3000w. I have some 20a circuits in the house, but want this to be more mobile. I understand this will probably limit me to 5 gallon batches, and I'm 100% okay with that. I can make 10 gallon batches in my current setup if I needed to. I've also read how long it will take to heat to temp, and I'm okay with that as well.

My initial thoughts (which could very well be incorrect):
Outfit my keggle with two 1500w heating elements. Not sure if the placement of two elements in proximity of each other is important. Was thinking about setting them about 45 degrees from each other. At first I was just going to run these into a junction box where I had two GFCI outlets that run to different circuits via an appropriately rated extension cord. Power would be controlled by a simple switch, so the elements are either on or off.

I'm now thinking about expanding this to using a PID and two SSR (which are terms I just learned yesterday). I believe one PID can control two SSRs, which then controls the elements being on or off.

I understand I'll need to come up with some way to keep the bag off the elements when mashing. Perhaps a steaming basket, wire rack, etc. Also need to insulate the keggle, etc.

Any issues with using a project box to hold a PID, two SSRs, and the two GFCI outlets? Elements plug into the GFCI, which is on or off from the SSRs? Please excuse me if I don't understand the concept of any of these electrical pieces.

This would be a no sparge, no recirculate setup. Just a simple 120v powered electrical BIAB.



Not sure I would bother w/ the PID and SSR's if a simple 120v BIAB is the goal....mash in and insulate the keg during the rest...raise the bag and use one or both elements to achieve mash out temps...PID's and SSR's are best if you are recirculating w/ a pump so you can regulate temps...without a pump not sure how they would be that beneficial? I would try without and improve the system as you feel necesary.
 
I would agree a PID/SSR would likely be overkill at this point. I may add them for future improvements. I was briefly thinking about adding a motorized stirrer to help circulate the water while it reaches strike temp. So many possibilities.
 
My HLT died so I tried my first BIAB this weekend since I already had my started ready to go. My setup is a 32quart Insulated Aluminum kettle with 2 elements. This time I did it manually because normally this is just my brew kettle. I used a 5G paint strainer bag that was just laying around for the grain.

Everything went pretty well I think. But there were some things I found that I'd like to do differently if I continue BIAB.

1) Stirring. It took we a while to realize the vast difference in temperatures if I hadn't stirred my mash fairly often. Especially if I was trying to raise the temps with the elements on. If I do this again, I'm thinking Ice Cream machine paddle through the lid. This would help with #2.

2) Dead Space. I had an aluminum plate in between my elements and my bag. All together, there were probably 1.5 gallons of dead space there. What I noticed is that if I needed to raise my temps by a degree or so, the elements would heat this dead space well, but without constant stirring, wouldn't evenly heat the grain. My thermometer wasn't long enough to reach down there, so I couldn't measure the temps in this dead space so overheating that was pretty easy. If I go full BIAB, I think I'd put my sensor down there so that I could regulate temps there. It would be nice to have a second probe in the grains though.
 
Well, I purchased pretty much everything. I decided to go with the PID and all, and will add some kind of simple motor to agitate the water. Here is a home depot "homer" toolbox that will house everything. I'm hoping its large enough that it won't be an issue to put the SSRs and heatsinks inside:

IMAG0108.jpg


Here is my first attempt at a wiring diagram. Can anyone take a look at this, and let me know anything wrong? Especially the outlet/switch combos. Perhaps I should put a fuse on the PID to protect it?

WiringDiagram.jpg
 
I wired it all up yesterday, and to my surprise everything is working. Next I have to start drilling and cutting the keg, and setup the elements.

Here is the front, with the RTD quick disconnect on top:
IMAG0109.jpg



The inside. I used a piece of wood to secure everything down. I only had 12g wire around, so that is what I used for the PID. Maybe someday I'll change this to a smaller guage. Ignore the dirty dishes in the sink.
IMAG0112.jpg


And the back. I decided to go with pigtails:
IMAG0111.jpg
 
I really dig that! I was seriously considering putting the PID's on top like you did....I went a different route but still like the ergonomics of doing it that way. I may very well go the pigtail route too...those flanged connectors plus adding another female plug to the cord just add too much cost to the build.

I'm jealous! You have a working control box, and I'm sitting at home waiting on parts :mug:
 
Thanks for the compliments Steve! Nothing to be jealous of, you're build is seriously awesome.

I am so surprised how quickly costs go up. Even as simple as everything looks I've spent too much money. I still have to come up with a motor to stir the water. I may cheap out and try to find a cheap ice cream maker for the motor. That or just spend the $55+ to get one from mcmaster.
 
Thanks for the compliments Steve! Nothing to be jealous of, you're build is seriously awesome.

I am so surprised how quickly costs go up. Even as simple as everything looks I've spent too much money. I still have to come up with a motor to stir the water. I may cheap out and try to find a cheap ice cream maker for the motor. That or just spend the $55+ to get one from mcmaster.

I'm looking at doing an electric BIAB setup as well. Can you post the link to the motor you're considering from mcmaster?
 
Dude, I don't think you need a stirrer. That's just my opinion, though ;) It really is another piece of gear to buy/maintain, and I'm not sure it'd save you much time.

You actually ARE using 240v...it could ACTUALLY be even more current than a dryer ckt if you're using 2 separate 20A kitchen ckts! So, there's a lot of energy being transferred to the liquid, and the turbulent currents generated by the thermal differences will keep things moving. The cool thing about your system is if you ever want to increase your size/power, all you need to do is get a bigger pot and upgrade the elements! As long as the cords are rated for higher current, you're GTG!

If you put some insulation on (hopefully classy) you'l get a lot more bang for your buck across the board...it doesn't require anything to work and (should) be really low maintenance....

Just try to get the brewery up and running and it'll be really clear what kind of upgrades you need!
 
I'm with you there Scuba. All wiring is 12g from start to finish. I did use 15a outlets just because that's all I'll be using at the moment (2x 1500w). I'll probably do a bunch of tests with the water once I get the keggle done (working on the last hole now, drill is overheating and taking a break). If all it takes is me manually stirring it, then I'll probably stick with that for a while.

My plan is a layer or two of reflectix, and then actually wrap the whole thing in wood. I think maybe it was you who thought about doing the same thing. I got the idea from this guy's mash tun: http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=4368.0 .
 
I am just now starting think about a 10g elecric BIAB setup. The mash temp consistency has been my biggest bugaboo with my current gas fired BIAB setup.

While the stirrer would work, couldn't you also just recirculate with a pump. You'd be pulling the hottest wort from near the element and pumping it ontop of the grain bed. It could be a RIBS, Recirculating Infusion Bag System!

I am hoping to start on my build sometime in the next couple of months. Have the thumbs up from SWMBO, just not much money since we are just finishing our kitchen remodel...
 
I am just now starting think about a 10g elecric BIAB setup. The mash temp consistency has been my biggest bugaboo with my current gas fired BIAB setup.

While the stirrer would work, couldn't you also just recirculate with a pump. You'd be pulling the hottest wort from near the element and pumping it ontop of the grain bed. It could be a RIBS, Recirculating Infusion Bag System!

I am hoping to start on my build sometime in the next couple of months. Have the thumbs up from SWMBO, just not much money since we are just finishing our kitchen remodel...

That is exactly what I do in one of my setups with pid control. It works well but you have to shield the bag from the element and be very careful you don't get an air pocket or you will blow the element. Done that a few times now.
 
While mine is still purely conceptual, I was thinking of simply using a stainless false bottom on 2 in legs. My kettle is a 20 gallon Update International (identical to the Northern Brewer MegaPots). The false bottom they sell would work great. Enough room underneath for my pickup tube, an element and a temperature probe/thermometer.

I don't currently use a pump so my ignorance may be showing through, but how would an air pocket form??

Cheers,
Jeff
 
What did you end up using to shield your element from the bag?

I have tried all sorts of different things, wire mesh, ripped open an old bazooka screen, an asparagus strainer, a stainless cheese grater. I still haven't found the perfect solution but they all worked. You just need to make sure you don't create an air pocket over the element or it will pop, even with an ulwd one, as I now use exclusively.
 
While mine is still purely conceptual, I was thinking of simply using a stainless false bottom on 2 in legs. My kettle is a 20 gallon Update International (identical to the Northern Brewer MegaPots). The false bottom they sell would work great. Enough room underneath for my pickup tube, an element and a temperature probe/thermometer.

I don't currently use a pump so my ignorance may be showing through, but how would an air pocket form??

Cheers,
Jeff

I tried this setup as well with a recirculating mash tun and popped an element because the voile curtain I was using slipped between the false bottom and the pot and got wedged between the element. Air got in there and the dry firing popped the element.

Air can get in during mash in or stirring or if you move the bag around.
 
Here is what I have so far:

homemade false bottom, to keep the grain bag off the elements. It is a stainless steel grease splatter screen. I broke off the handle and use 4x 4" stainless steel carriage bolts and nuts to raise it:
IMAG0114.jpg


Here is the keggle so far. I'm going to put more insulation around it:
IMAG0115.jpg


Two 1500w elements:
IMAG0116.jpg


Inside of the keggle. I had to cut a couple of notches to fit the false bottom through:
IMAG0117.jpg


And finally, the false bottom while inside:
IMAG0119.jpg
 
+1. It looks really good so far....I'm really interested to see what happens when you fill her up and boil with the FB in. I'm worried my basket may somehow impede the boil, which could be a big problem for boiling with hops.
 
I built a "rat cage" to place over my element. I used stainless steel perforated sheet metal that we had lying around at work not sure what it is called or where you can get it. My boil is just as vigorous with or without the cage over the element.
 
theschick said:
Here is what I have so far:

homemade false bottom, to keep the grain bag off the elements. It is a stainless steel grease splatter screen. I broke off the handle and use 4x 4" stainless steel carriage bolts and nuts to raise it:

Here is the keggle so far. I'm going to put more insulation around it:

Two 1500w elements:

Inside of the keggle. I had to cut a couple of notches to fit the false bottom through:

And finally, the false bottom while inside:

Looks really good. Where did you find that splatter screen?
 
I built a "rat cage" to place over my element. I used stainless steel perforated sheet metal that we had lying around at work not sure what it is called or where you can get it. My boil is just as vigorous with or without the cage over the element.

The cage is a good idea (especially for an IC), but if you put the bag right on it, you may have some issues. I've seen the 3" PERFORATED SS TUBE used for exhausts, etc....that might be a good option too.
 
The cage is a good idea (especially for an IC), but if you put the bag right on it, you may have some issues. I've seen the 3" PERFORATED SS TUBE used for exhausts, etc....that might be a good option too.

I have not had any issues with the bag sitting on the cage but the cage I built does not contact the element there is about 2" of clearance all around.
 
Looks really good. Where did you find that splatter screen?

Target also carries them. I actually picked mine up at some home goods store, which was $5 cheaper than target.
 
Here she is with a little more insulation:
IMAG0121.jpg


I filled the keggle up with 9 gallons of water, and tested the how long it took to heat up. These temps are off, as it is boiling right now, but only reading 206 degrees. Looks like I need to try the autotune on the PID.

In a cold garage, starting with 9 gallons @ 50 degrees, it took about 65 minutes to reach 168. It took about another 27 minutes to reach boiling.

The 3000w isn't a vigorous boil, not like I had with propane. However, I think it will be enough. I'm testing the boil of rate now, and I'm guessing it will be 1g per hour, compared to 1.5g I get with the turkey fryer.
 
I decided I wanted a way to remove the false bottom after mashing.
I needed a simple way to measure the wort (don't have a sight glass).

So, I made this mash paddle to solve both problems. It will be marked up the sides to show how many gallons are left in the kettle, a la dip stick. Its not the straightest, I had to free hand it with a jig saw.
IMAG0133.jpg


I connected a SS U-bolt to my false bottom. Then I can quickly connect a bolt to the paddle, and use it to grab the false bottom and lift it out.
IMAG0134.jpg
 
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