Fast primary fermentation - now what?

I visited Ireland this summer and came back with a new found taste for cider. I made a 1.5 gal test batch in July that came out fantastic. I took it to parties to get feedback and the response was great.

I live is a great area for apples in the Champlain Valley of NY. I got 5 gal local juice that was according to the orchard very lightly UV treated. 60% spartan, 30% Mac with the rest Empire and Cortland. The juice alone was low in sugar 1.036 gravity. I decided to campden it. I got a 32 oz bottle of juice with no preservatives from the store so that I could heat that and add my sugar and honey. I added 1 lbs of local honey, 1 lbs corn sugar (dextrose) and 1 lbs turbano sugar. I waited a day and then pitched with cote de blanc wine yeast with yeast nutriant. I was shoot for a 7% cider but got a 1.058 gravity + 7.5% alch.

It did nothing for day and a half - no bubbles nothing. So i called the midwest tech support and they suggested stirring it up, and then giving the bucket a slosh every 6 hours so so. I did all this and then read the yeast specs and decided to turn the heat on to 60 degrees. It then fermeneted like crazy.

the air lock stopped bubbling after 6 days and 1.5 of those it hadn't bubbled at all. I checked the gravity and it was at 1.004. I checked with tech support at midwest and they said this was " atypical" for this yeast. It is supposed to be slow fermenting and doesn't ferment totally dry. Since it was pretty cloudy i waited a day and then decided to rack it to seconday. I also bottled a few bottles to see how it was without the seconday. When is racked it it smelled good. next time i'm going to add the peptic enzyme.

Sorry for being so long winded but my questions are
1) has anyone esle seen this fast of a fermentation? Should i have left it on the yeast lees longer? Will a faster fermentation yield a good cider

2) the better bottle secondary has small bubbles rising it it but no activity on the air lock. Is this a malolatic fermatation going on? How long should i wait before bottling the rest.

it sounds totally normal. cider can ferment very quickly or very slowly. 6 days is well within the normal range. i haven't used that yeast but there's no way it will quit at 7.5% or else wines from that region couldn't be 12%. i have never fermented honey but the juice and sugars you added contain nothing the yeast can't chew through so unless the honey contains complex sugars (mead makers chime in here) it should go below 1.000. the bubbles are probably a combination of slow residual fermentation and degassing, which can continue for a while after the sugars are gone, very unlikely to be mlf with pasteurized and campden-added juice
i would be wary of bottling any of it until you know it's done. if a 'normal' carb of 2.5 volumes consumes around 2 gravity points (not exactly sure on the accuracy of that one) then you are going to have gushers. finally- just checking, but is your secondary topped up to the brim, after bottling off a few? make sure it is!

Why does the secondary need to be to the brim? Prevent oxidation? One of my batches also fermented fast (3 days) is that too fast?
Not trying to thread jack, just have similar questions.

I had a 5.25 gal batch so for my secondary i did a 3 gal better bottle, 3 .5 gal growlers these all are topped up to bottom of the necks

then took the rest and bottled to 2 16 oz bottles and one 1 liter bottle. I put one carbonation drops in the grolsh bottles and 2 in the 1 Litter bottle with a grolsh type closure. Do you think these are potential bottle bombs? I may put them in a bucket to age so it they blow its contained.

The advice seems split as to the need for a secondary.

Cotes de blanc yeast should easily take the cider to .990, so I'm not sure why anybody would say 1.004 at the end of primary would be "atypical"- it seems about right to me. It's not done, though- it should ferment totally dry.

Yes, secondary should be within an inch or two of the bung at the narrowest part of the vessel, to prevent oxidation.

Secondary is important to me, as I like to get the cider/wine off of the lees. If left on the lees too long, unpleasant flavors can develop. It won't happen in a month or two, but in a longer time period.

By the way zski, I'm right across from you in the VT side of the champlain valley! Happy brewing.

Yooper said:

Cotes de blanc yeast should easily take the cider to .990, so I'm not sure why anybody would say 1.004 at the end of primary would be "atypical"- it seems about right to me. It's not done, though- it should ferment totally dry.

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from the description of the yeast i used

Cote des Blancs is also known as Epernay II. It is recommended for Chardonnay, Riesling, mead and cider, as well as fruit wines, particularly apple. it imparts a fruity aroma in both red and white wines. A slow fermenter that works best between 50 and 80 degrees. This strain will not ferment to a dryness at the low end of the range, leaving residual sugar resulting in a sweeter wine.
Ideal Temperature Range (°F) 64-86°F
Attenuation (%) NA
Flocculation Low
Alcohol Tolerance (%) 12-14% ABV
Rate of Fermentation Slow
Foam Production Low
Nutrient Requirements High
H2S Production Low
SO2 Production Very Low
Profile Wine

so according to this and i confirmed it with the tech cider tech support person at midwest you can not expect this yeast to go to 1.000 gravity - actually he said 1.004 was really dry for this yeast. It aslo is known to be a really slow yeast and my 1st batch had been much slower than this one but i did use yeast nutriant this time

zski said:

from the description of the yeast i used

Cote des Blancs is also known as Epernay II. It is recommended for Chardonnay, Riesling, mead and cider, as well as fruit wines, particularly apple. it imparts a fruity aroma in both red and white wines. A slow fermenter that works best between 50 and 80 degrees. This strain will not ferment to a dryness at the low end of the range, leaving residual sugar resulting in a sweeter wine.
Ideal Temperature Range (°F) 64-86°F
Attenuation (%) NA
Flocculation Low
Alcohol Tolerance (%) 12-14% ABV
Rate of Fermentation Slow
Foam Production Low
Nutrient Requirements High
H2S Production Low
SO2 Production Very Low
Profile Wine

so according to this and i confirmed it with the tech cider tech support person at midwest you can not expect this yeast to go to 1.000 gravity - actually he said 1.004 was really dry for this yeast. It aslo is known to be a really slow yeast and my 1st batch had been much slower than this one but i did use yeast nutriant this time

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I've made over 100 wines and ciders- and I've used cote des blancs. I have had all of them finish at .990, if the OG was under 1.090. Maybe the expert has a different experience.

In any case, make sure you take the SG before bottling or anything, to ensure it's done. I really do believe that at 1.004, it's a long way from done. It will usually stop at 12%, unless it's really happy and can easily push 14% in an active fermentation.

its in secondary now and the air lock is not bubbling at all - any advice on how long to leave it in secondary? how do you know to bottle?

I will check the SG before bottling

Epernay II is similar to Lalvin EC-1118.

They're typically classed as a 'neutral' champaigne yeast. I've had the experience of this yeast fermenting out a batch of mead from 1.07 or so down to .9 within 5 days, with truly violent fermentation for one of these days (low krausen, but it was like it was simmering)

thanks its good to know that this was not totally out of the norm - odd that midwests cider tech guy and the specs on their web site don't jive with this experiece

i guess that is what is nice about finding this forum

zski said:

its in secondary now and the air lock is not bubbling at all - any advice on how long to leave it in secondary? how do you know to bottle?

I will check the SG before bottling

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Once it's clear, you can bottle if you'd like. I like to wait until no new lees fall after 60 days so that there isn't any sediment in the bottle.

As it sits, you can decide if you want to sweeten this, carbonate it, etc. Or maybe do a bit of each to see which way you like it? I prefer my cider still and dry, more like a wine, while others like it carbonated and others like it sweet. So many choices!

i like mine dry and sparkling - like a dry brut sparkling wine